Hydrogen versus Electrons alone

[UncleEbenezer]

In any case, buses generally fall under the "runabout" definition and so don't suffer from range angst;

Neither should anyone else in Blighty. Range-anxiety is an Americanism, relevant to long journeys through sparsely-populated parts of their country. We don't have that here.

My neighbour routinely drives his Tesla the 250 miles between here (his second home) and London. Range is simply not an issue.

[CliffEdge]

In any case, buses generally fall under the "runabout" definition and so don't suffer from range angst;

Neither should anyone else in Blighty. Range-anxiety is an Americanism, relevant to long journeys through sparsely-populated parts of their country. We don't have that here.

My neighbour routinely drives his Tesla the 250 miles between here (his second home) and London. Range is simply not an issue.

Tesla, the People's Car

[funduffer]

I think electric vehicles will be the future. Battery technology is still improving with several breakthrough technologies on the horizon.

I drive a battery EV so I would say that wouldn't I!

Charging at home, I use solar power during the day, or cheap rate power at night. The car has a 300mile range, so public charging is only an issue for long journeys, which for me are infrequent. My home charging works out at about 1p per mile. Public charging costs are still lower than the equivalent petrol/diesel fuel costs, but not hugely so. Public charging speeds are so high now, it takes literally minutes to add hundreds of miles of range. I do about 8000 miles per year, mostly via home charging which puts almost no strain on the grid.

Hydrogen has a place - probably for lorries and other large vehicles, but I think EV's are here to stay for cars and light vehicles - i.e. most vehicles. As others have said, making green hydrogen is a hopelessly inefficient way to produce fuel for vehicles and if it was at very large scale would but a much greater strain on the grid than charging batteries.

The green revolution in transport is happening, and it is happening fast.

For investing - I think battery storage will be a big thing for homes and the grid in the next decade. The best investment opportunities for battery vehicles has probably gone (Eg who would invest in Tesla now, compared to 5-10 years ago?). Unless of course you can spot a battery technology breakthrough opportunity before everyone else does.

FD

[csearle]

I think that range angst is a thing in the UK. Not all electric cars match Tesla.

I was interested in the arguments against Hydrogen because of the volumetric density of the stored energy. I understand that the hydrogen generated at windfarm/electrolyser plants can be used to generate alcohol based fuels, which I'm rather hoping can store energy at a higher volumetric density.

Also some of the efficiencies implied by the graphs above regarding wind-to wheel via the hydrogen path seem to have consistently chosen the simplest, least efficient way of going about things, which makes me wonder if the author had a hidden agenda.

Chris

[mc2fool]

I think that range angst is a thing in the UK. Not all electric cars match Tesla.

I was interested in the arguments against Hydrogen because of the volumetric density of the stored energy. I understand that the hydrogen generated at windfarm/electrolyser plants can be used to generate alcohol based fuels, which I'm rather hoping can store energy at a higher volumetric density.

Alcohols are, of course, hydrocarbons, consisting of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen in various amounts, and the traditional problem with making alcohol fuels like ethanol is the large amount of land needed to grow the biomass material.

If, however, instead of clearing and burning huge areas of forests for replanting, carbon capture is used to get CO2 for the process, then we can have ...

... carbon-negative vodka! https://aircompany.com/products/air-vodka

[JohnB]

One of my pet hates is people who propose carbon capture from regular air, where its a faction of %, rather than in a power station flue. If you want CO2, it also make more sense to let trees capture it, and then burn in a plant the trees to get the CO2.

[Spet0789]

The other issue with hydrogen is that it’s impossible to make a leak-proof tank. Park your hydrogen-fuelled car at an airport with a full tank and when you come back 2 weeks later you’ll find it’s nearly empty!

[Hallucigenia]

I think that range angst is a thing in the UK. Not all electric cars match Tesla.

Not that they need to - the commuter runabout is a big market for which a Leaf-style 100-ish miles is plenty good enough. But if you take something like the ID.3 as representative of what a "Golf replacement" would look like, the standard models do a claimed 263 miles and you can get a bigger battery that does 336 miles, and which can add an extra 250 miles of range in 40 minutes.

London to Newquay is 254 miles per Google, London to Edinburgh is 422 miles. What percentage of the UK car population are regularly doing those kinds of trips?

I was interested in the arguments against Hydrogen because of the volumetric density of the stored energy. I understand that the hydrogen generated at windfarm/electrolyser plants can be used to generate alcohol based fuels, which I'm rather hoping can store energy at a higher volumetric density.

They can, but making those kinds of fuels again is hugely inefficient, which will be reflected in the price. It'll work for those cases where there is no good alternative - mostly where energy density is critical, like planes - but it will be a minority thing elsewhere.

Also some of the efficiencies implied by the graphs above regarding wind-to wheel via the hydrogen path seem to have consistently chosen the simplest, least efficient way of going about things, which makes me wonder if the author had a hidden agenda.

It's a starting point for discussion. But choose the "best" way for each path, the same general pattern will hold, and you still can't round the problems of creating a new infrastructure for hydrogen from scratch compared to the incremental additions to the existing electricity network.

[scotia]

Public charging costs are still lower than the equivalent petrol/diesel fuel costs, but not hugely so.

That's interesting - I (obviously mistakenly) imagined they were significantly lower. Now the current tax take on petrol/diesel makes a substantial contribution to the UK budget. It will have to be replaced. So if it goes back on electric vehicle charging , running costs are going to be significantly higher.