Arb's HYP 10th year

Practical discussions about equity High-Yield Portfolios (HYP) for income
zxc100
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby zxc100 » January 8th, 2017, 6:05 pm

Thanks Ozyu
The table from the FTSA was v enlightening. I should say my figures were calculated to April 16 so there hopefully will be a lift due in April. I had previously just worked on annual figures and had assumed i was out performing the indicies. I am sort of hoping that the last 7 years suggests my investment performance is improving. Dangerous thinking but i do now have a better knowledge af what i am looking for and also what to avoid.
Interested in any other thoughts from anyone.

Zxc

Arborbridge
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Arborbridge » January 9th, 2017, 8:02 am

Now I am a little confused, Arb. I have some shares which have negative cost, as trimming in the past has realised more than the original cost. However I also have a rebased cost, which values the remaining holding at the cost per share before trimming.


Well, I don't have any negative costs, and I believe my program works out the cost in the way you suggest. I have a professionally built portfolio program, so I just take whatever it tells me. I discussed this once before on TMF because it wasn't clear to me whether the results were correct, but the feeling was, my program is giving the correct result.

I can't say it's an important metric for me - in fact I've only just thought of doing that! - so I'll leave it as it i and go back to sleep 8-)

Arborbridge
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Arborbridge » January 9th, 2017, 8:31 am

I would like to ask why so many of you unitise?

Thoughly answered by OZYU. For comparison purposes and to deal with additions or subtractions of capital which would otherwise invalidate the comparison.

Surely the only thing that matters is the level of your income and how much it changes

Generally, of course. I have a very pleasing chart showing my overall income increasing which I may put up sometime.
However, when I first started, I needed to unitise in order to get a feeling as to whether HYP was successful compared with whatever else could be done with my retirement pot. Unitising was one way of doing this.
Despite a recent off topic contribution suggesting the opposite, the answer is not easy. My feeling is that the even after many years, the jury is out. So far, it looks as though an IT basket could be a good alternative, but not necessarily much different.

Perhaps you enjoy the exercise?


Indeed. It's quite fun to do - when it becomes a chore, I will probably just settle back and enjoy the knowledge I've accumulated and the resulting income. There is undoubtedly a "hobby" element to all this, and it would be perfectly possible to become all but passive and still reap the rewards - probably just as well. Once you start, you carry on because of the "sunk effort" you've already put in.

One further thought: investment is a never ending story. Comparisons are never completely clear cut because what works in one epoch may not work in the next. By the time you've come to a conclusion, the story will probably have moved on. I've tried many investment styles in my life based on people's theories - HYP is the nearest thing to a system suitable to my needs and which I've been able to operate successfully.

MDW1954
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby MDW1954 » January 9th, 2017, 1:20 pm

Grimer,

I use this spreadsheet tool to download the share price data:

http://investexcel.net/multiple-stock-q ... for-excel/


That's a really interesting looking link, and VBA tool. Thanks for posting it!

MDW1954

idpickering
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby idpickering » January 9th, 2017, 2:29 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Ian,
I'm still interested in bringing Admiral on board perhaps.]


You might be even more convinced now as it is number two in this table. Looking at my records, it has always bounced around in the top quarter on this measure. Given that it also has a good yield, it is one I have no regret at buying.

Arb.


Hi Arb,

Sorry, I missed your post. It is one I've 'pickering'd' over in the past, and it seems that on 20 Jan 17 it will be on board. (excuse pun). This addition is being discussed in a new thread here;

http://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2356

Respectfully,

Ian.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Itsallaguess » January 9th, 2017, 8:01 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
Grimer wrote:
I use this spreadsheet tool to download the share price data:

http://investexcel.net/multiple-stock-q ... for-excel/


That's a really interesting looking link, and VBA tool. Thanks for posting it!

MDW1954


Not sure if you've seen the basic Yahoo price scrape VBA code on the Financial Software site MDW1954 -

http://lemonfoolfinancialsoftware.weebl ... crape.html

It's a stripped down version of the Yahoo-price-scrape code embedded into the HYPTUS tool, but we made the lighter version in case anyone wants to find out about the VBA behind it, and also because it's a nice basic price-scrape from which people could easily build their own processes or portfolio-type spreadsheet.

I should add at this point that the code behind this Yahoo price scrape is actually taken from a VBA routine posted by ANC1 on The Motley Fool website many, many years ago now. I've got to say that it was this small routine that got me bitten by the VBA bug, which eventually led to the wider development of the HYPTUS tool.

I continue to owe a huge debt of gratitude to ANC1, for pointing me down such an interesting path. I hope you find some of the above VBA code just as interesting MDW1954.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

MDW1954
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby MDW1954 » January 9th, 2017, 10:05 pm

I continue to owe a huge debt of gratitude to ANC1, for pointing me down such an interesting path. I hope you find some of the above VBA code just as interesting MDW1954.


Now, this reply is going to be off-topic, but I hope my fellow moderators will be indulgent. :D

One of the first things I did when I read the announcement of the closure of the TMF boards was print off an old exchange on the old Financial Software board regarding a post I'd made about VBA on Excel. You yourself contributed, as did (I discovered) an old friend from university days.

I've since exchanged private messages here on TLF with another ex-Fool. VBA data scraping remains a priority, but has taken second place to some fairly full-on analytics courses that I've been doing for two years: earning a crust takes precedence over a hobby.

Alas, it's becoming like Python: always on the "to do" list, never quite on the "done" list.

MDW1954

grimer
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby grimer » January 9th, 2017, 10:36 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:Not sure if you've seen the basic Yahoo price scrape VBA code on the Financial Software site MDW1954 -

http://lemonfoolfinancialsoftware.weebl ... crape.html

It's a stripped down version of the Yahoo-price-scrape code embedded into the HYPTUS tool, but we made the lighter version in case anyone wants to find out about the VBA behind it, and also because it's a nice basic price-scrape from which people could easily build their own processes or portfolio-type spreadsheet


I'd really like to incorporate the data grab into my unitising spreadsheet - I.e. I open up the spreadsheet, click update and grabs the close prices between 'today' and the last time I ran the macro. I'm just not sure how practical it would be in practice. Sometimes there are gaps in the Yahoo data - especially for 'today'. Pasting it in manually provides an opportunity to spot missing data.

I might strip out my personal financial data and post it on the financial software forum to see if anybody can lend a hand.

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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Gengulphus » January 9th, 2017, 11:02 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Now I am a little confused, Arb. I have some shares which have negative cost, as trimming in the past has realised more than the original cost.

That's a negated running cash balance, not a cost.

Do it on the basis that when you spend money on a holding, its cost increases by the money you spend, and when you sell part of a holding, the corresponding part of the cost goes with the shares that were sold, and the cost won't go negative.

E.g. buy 1000 shares at 100p each and it's clear that their cost is £1,000. If you later sell 500 shares at 300p each and keep the other 500, then the cost of each set of 500 is clearly £500. The 500 you sold were a profitable investment, having cost £500 and realised £1,500 when sold, and so your cash is up by £1,000 as a result of buying and selling them - but that doesn't alter the fact that the 500 shares which you've kept cost you £500. So the negated running cash balance is -£500, which you can either regard as £1,000 spent on the purchase minus £1,500 raised by the sale, or as the £500 cost of the shares you still have minus the £1,000 cash profit on the shares you no longer have.

Gengulphus

tjh290633
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby tjh290633 » January 9th, 2017, 11:12 pm

Gengulphus wrote:That's a negated running cash balance, not a cost.

Do it on the basis that when you spend money on a holding, its cost increases by the money you spend, and when you sell part of a holding, the corresponding part of the cost goes with the shares that were sold, and the cost won't go negative.

E.g. buy 1000 shares at 100p each and it's clear that their cost is £1,000. If you later sell 500 shares at 300p each and keep the other 500, then the cost of each set of 500 is clearly £500. The 500 you sold were a profitable investment, having cost £500 and realised £1,500 when sold, and so your cash is up by £1,000 as a result of buying and selling them - but that doesn't alter the fact that the 500 shares which you've kept cost you £500. So the negated running cash balance is -£500, which you can either regard as £1,000 spent on the purchase minus £1,500 raised by the sale, or as the £500 cost of the shares you still have minus the £1,000 cash profit on the shares you no longer have.

Gengulphus


Yes, that's what I do to get the rebased cost, but when companies keep returning cash even that method turns the cost negative, if they give you back more cash than you paid for the shares. It happened to me when IMT (now IMB) had two rights issues, and I sold the rights, which I had to deduct from the original cost, and it took the cost negative.

TJH

Gengulphus
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Gengulphus » January 10th, 2017, 1:20 am

tjh290633 wrote:Yes, that's what I do to get the rebased cost, but when companies keep returning cash even that method turns the cost negative, if they give you back more cash than you paid for the shares. It happened to me when IMT (now IMB) had two rights issues, and I sold the rights, which I had to deduct from the original cost, and it took the cost negative.

No, the thing to do that is consistent with the approach I described is to split the cost of the cum-rights shares between the ex-rights shares and the rights. Selling the rights only takes the rights' part of the original cost with it, with any excess of the selling price being a cash profit rather than affecting the ex-rights shares' part of the cost, and so the ex-rights shares still have a positive cost. It does of course require one to decide on a fair split of the cost.

Same goes for a demerger - and there there's the possibility that you end up keeping both of the two resulting holdings and quite possibly independently adding to them. I can't think of any sensible way of dealing with that other than deciding on a fair split of the original holding's cost between the resulting holdings, so think that having a method to decide on a fair split is necessary anyway - and so it might as well be used in the rights issue case as well.

Gengulphus

Itsallaguess
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Itsallaguess » January 10th, 2017, 4:01 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
Alas, it's becoming like Python: always on the "to do" list, never quite on the "done" list.

MDW1954


I most certainly hear you; there's always something crops up to stop us doing what we really want to do.... :O)

As an aside MDW1954, I've noticed on a few occasions now that when replying to a post using the message-board 'quote' system you have a habit of removing the [quote="poster_you're_quoting"] text, which turns into the "MDW1954 wrote:" example in this post.

When you remove that, it also removes the capability of the board software to notify the person you're quoting, to let them know they've been quoted (and replied to) by you in a message.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, and I think you may be doing it to help make any reply you're posting look a little 'neater' perhaps (?), but so long as you know that it's at the price of not allowing the person you're discussing things with get the board-notification (1) highlighter, to help people keep in touch with threads they are active on, and which others are replying to.

Just thought I'd mention this, as I didn't receive a notification that you'd replied to my last post on this thread, but then noticed that you had, and on investigation I think it's your editing of the 'quote' feature that's causing that to happen.

Good luck with the VBA and pyhthon!

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Itsallaguess » January 10th, 2017, 4:06 pm

grimer wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:Not sure if you've seen the basic Yahoo price scrape VBA code on the Financial Software site MDW1954 -

http://lemonfoolfinancialsoftware.weebl ... crape.html

It's a stripped down version of the Yahoo-price-scrape code embedded into the HYPTUS tool, but we made the lighter version in case anyone wants to find out about the VBA behind it, and also because it's a nice basic price-scrape from which people could easily build their own processes or portfolio-type spreadsheet


I'd really like to incorporate the data grab into my unitising spreadsheet - I.e. I open up the spreadsheet, click update and grabs the close prices between 'today' and the last time I ran the macro. I'm just not sure how practical it would be in practice. Sometimes there are gaps in the Yahoo data - especially for 'today'. Pasting it in manually provides an opportunity to spot missing data.

I might strip out my personal financial data and post it on the financial software forum to see if anybody can lend a hand.


We'd need some ticker examples to really help with this Grimer, and it may be better to start another thread on the Financial Software board through which to do that, but I think this is something that should be doable.

Even if the worst case was that you had some particular investments that had flaky Yahoo data, you could easily set up the automated side of things alongside some auto-formatting feature, so that after you'd pressed the 'Grab Prices' button, any blanks were perhaps highlighted in a brightly coloured cell for you to then manually enter the odd price that might be causing you difficulty at any particular time.

These things can help enormously, although as with anything they are far from perfect, but there's usually a solution available that can help take the bulk of this sort of work out of the job, and a full-on manual entry where only some of the data might be missing seems a bit of a shame.

Do you want to open a new thread on the Financial Software board, and we'll see if we can get something going for you?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Gengulphus
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Gengulphus » January 10th, 2017, 5:09 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:As an aside MDW1954, I've noticed on a few occasions now that when replying to a post using the message-board 'quote' system you have a habit of removing the [quote="poster_you're_quoting"] text, which turns into the "MDW1954 wrote:" example in this post.

When you remove that, it also removes the capability of the board software to notify the person you're quoting, to let them know they've been quoted (and replied to) by you in a message.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, and I think you may be doing it to help make any reply you're posting look a little 'neater' perhaps (?), but so long as you know that it's at the price of not allowing the person you're discussing things with get the board-notification (1) highlighter, to help people keep in touch with threads they are active on, and which others are replying to.

Though note that quite a few replies get posted on threads without quoting the person being replied to - i.e. using "Post Reply" rather than the quote button. So relying on the "Someone quotes you in a post" notification option to keep you in touch with threads you're active on is rather unreliable, having at least two ways it can fail. Getting everyone to always avoid both of them (by always quoting in a reply, and not editing out the crucial text) strikes me as a forlorn hope...

So personally, I keep in touch with threads by "bookmarking" them and using the "Manage bookmarks" part of the User Control Panel to tell me about new posts on them. (I could instead use the "Someone replies to a topic you have bookmarked" notification option, but that could lead to lots of notifications for an active thread - I prefer just the single indication in "Manage bookmarks" that the thread has one or more new posts on it.)

As a postscript to the above, I found on previewing this post that the post I'm replying to has the property that if one quotes it, the quote is seriously differently formatted to the original, in a way that manufactures an extra level of quote! To deal with that, I've slightly changed the formatting of the quoted passage, in such a way as to get rid of the extra level of quote - but it does mean that the quote is very slightly differently formatted from the original... Hopefully not in a way you mind, Itsallaguess!

Gengulphus

Itsallaguess
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Itsallaguess » January 10th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:As an aside MDW1954, I've noticed on a few occasions now that when replying to a post using the message-board 'quote' system you have a habit of removing the [quote="poster_you're_quoting"] text, which turns into the "MDW1954 wrote:" example in this post.

When you remove that, it also removes the capability of the board software to notify the person you're quoting, to let them know they've been quoted (and replied to) by you in a message.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, and I think you may be doing it to help make any reply you're posting look a little 'neater' perhaps (?), but so long as you know that it's at the price of not allowing the person you're discussing things with get the board-notification (1) highlighter, to help people keep in touch with threads they are active on, and which others are replying to.

Though note that quite a few replies get posted on threads without quoting the person being replied to - i.e. using "Post Reply" rather than the quote button. So relying on the "Someone quotes you in a post" notification option to keep you in touch with threads you're active on is rather unreliable, having at least two ways it can fail. Getting everyone to always avoid both of them (by always quoting in a reply, and not editing out the crucial text) strikes me as a forlorn hope...

So personally, I keep in touch with threads by "bookmarking" them and using the "Manage bookmarks" part of the User Control Panel to tell me about new posts on them. (I could instead use the "Someone replies to a topic you have bookmarked" notification option, but that could lead to lots of notifications for an active thread - I prefer just the single indication in "Manage bookmarks" that the thread has one or more new posts on it.)

As a postscript to the above, I found on previewing this post that the post I'm replying to has the property that if one quotes it, the quote is seriously differently formatted to the original, in a way that manufactures an extra level of quote! To deal with that, I've slightly changed the formatting of the quoted passage, in such a way as to get rid of the extra level of quote - but it does mean that the quote is very slightly differently formatted from the original... Hopefully not in a way you mind, Itsallaguess!

Gengulphus


Totally agree that there's different methods to keep in touch with 'active' threads, but I just wanted to highlight that the particular way the quotes were being edited led to one of those methods being lost, that's all. I didn't know if MDW1954 knew how his editing was affecting things really, so I just wanted to highlight it to him in case he wanted to reconsider the way he currently modifies the quoted posts.

But in terms of modifying quoted posts, I'll hold my hands up and say that I'm guilty of doing so myself, as I don't think the default configuration gives a particularly 'neat' way of reading quoted posts, so I do modify them myself as well, when using quoted replies, but I'm careful to keep the "xxxxxx wrote:" functionality intact so that I don't remove one of the methods that can help people keep in touch with posts of theirs that have been replied to.

I should be clear that this isn't something I'm trying to police at all; I'm simply trying to raise awareness in case people don't fully understand the implications of any post-quote editing they may be doing, that's all...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

tjh290633
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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby tjh290633 » January 10th, 2017, 6:06 pm

Gengulphus wrote:Same goes for a demerger - and there there's the possibility that you end up keeping both of the two resulting holdings and quite possibly independently adding to them. I can't think of any sensible way of dealing with that other than deciding on a fair split of the original holding's cost between the resulting holdings, so think that having a method to decide on a fair split is necessary anyway - and so it might as well be used in the rights issue case as well.

Gengulphus


What I have always done in the case of demergers is to use the opening price of the demerged shares to adjust the cost of the original share. I always treat the new share as having been bought at the opening price on the first day. That's the way I handled Hanson and Six Continents, for example.

There was the added complication with SXC of a capital return at the demerger. Looking at my records, I had 739 SXC, and got a capital return of 81p at the split, when the price was 592p. I received 626 shares each of IHG and MAB, which opened at 371.4p and 221.9p respectively. The capital return plus the opening costs of the successors was less than the cost of my SXC shares at an average of 690p. Nevertheless I had a positive IRR of 3.9% for SXC.

I don't think that transfering the cost of SXC to IHG and MAB served any useful purpose.

TJH

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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby MDW1954 » January 11th, 2017, 12:03 pm

As an aside MDW1954, I've noticed on a few occasions now that when replying to a post using the message-board 'quote' system you have a habit of removing the [ quote="poster_you're_quoting"] text [/ quote]


I don't have a habit of removing anything. I accept that that the quoted text above probably won't have the "XXX wrote" attribution, but it's not because I removed it!

Nothing like that is appearing, so it's not being removed by me.

However, I fully understand the point you make about notifications. I'll experiment and see what might be happening.

MDW1954

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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Breelander » January 11th, 2017, 1:40 pm

MDW1954 wrote:...it's not because I removed it!
Nothing like that is appearing, so it's not being removed by me.


To quote text from a post and automatically quote the whole post with the [quote="MDW1954"] at the start click the [Image] 'Reply with quote' button above the post you want to quote. You can edit it down to just the bit you want to quote, if needed (as I did for this reply).

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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby MDW1954 » January 11th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Breelander wrote:To quote text from a post and automatically quote the whole post with the [q u o t e="MDW1954"] at the start click the [Image] 'Reply with quote' button above the post you want to quote. You can edit it down to just the bit you want to quote, if needed (as I did for this reply).


Oh, I see. Slower and messier than what I was doing, but all in a good cause, I guess.

MDW1954

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Re: Arb's HYP 10th year

Postby Gengulphus » January 11th, 2017, 6:05 pm

Breelander wrote:To quote text from a post and automatically quote the whole post with the [quote="MDW1954"] at the start click the [Image] 'Reply with quote' button above the post you want to quote. You can edit it down to just the bit you want to quote, if needed (as I did for this reply).

If the post you're replying to is long and you only want to quote a small part of it, though, then cut-and-pasting it and using the "Quote" button may well be quicker - but you won't get the '="MDW1954"' inside it unless you remember to insert it yourself...

NB I've again had to mess around with the formatting of the above quote in a minor way to prevent the software messing around with it in a much more major way...

Gengulphus


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