Re: Renewable + conventional trends
Posted: December 27th, 2020, 6:13 pm
You can power an ICE from hydrogen if you are happy to accept ICE levels of efficiency.
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johnhemming wrote:You can power an ICE from hydrogen if you are happy to accept ICE levels of efficiency.
tjh290633 wrote:TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:What's the issue with hydrogen, except for it's flammability? In my opinion it would be appear to be a superb energy storage medium for daytime wind and solar energy generated surpluses.
Matt
Do remember that for over a century we used town's gas, which had a high percentage of hydrogen in its composition. It has been used for vehicle traction, and my grandfather ran a printing works powered by a single cylinder engine, running on town's gas, driving the overhead shafting system.
TJH
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:dspp wrote:hydrogen sucks ...... but Johnson's cronies would get rich pumping taxpayer pork into it ........
- dspp
What's the issue with hydrogen, except for it's flammability? In my opinion it would be appear to be a superb energy storage medium for daytime wind and solar energy generated surpluses.
Matt
Sorcery wrote: Using Carbon to carry hydrogen as in say methane or octane seems ideal except for the pesky fact that that means we are back to burning carbon again.
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:johnhemming wrote:Sorcery wrote: Using Carbon to carry hydrogen as in say methane or octane seems ideal except for the pesky fact that that means we are back to burning carbon again.
If, however, you can sustainably create the hydrocarbon then it is a different issue. However, there are still lots of issues even with things like biofuels.
Methanol is the obvious answer to my mind. Though I see little about it these days. As a bonus, it's made from CO2 and H2. (CH3OH).
RVF
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:NH3 is a gas at normal temperatures too, as a potential mass market fuel it's very unpleasant indeed. Methanol? Can be supplied using existing infrastructure. Not really sure why methanol isn't a popular option as a potential alternative store of energy these days. Not glamorous/sexy enough perhaps?
RVF
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:I am aware of the flammability, density of hydrogen.
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:To be quite blunt here, your post demonstrates a breath taking lack of understanding of the fundamental issues being discussed about hydrogen.
I can assure you the running and maintenance of electrolysis plants is orders of magnitude more complex than running large scale battery arrays.
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:I believe you. I was prepared to discuss the complexities thereof, instead of being cast off with a veiled insult.
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:To be quite blunt here, your post demonstrates a breath taking lack of understanding of the fundamental issues being discussed about hydrogen.
That's a little rude.I can assure you the running and maintenance of electrolysis plants is orders of magnitude more complex than running large scale battery arrays.
I believe you. I was prepared to discuss the complexities thereof, instead of being cast off with a veiled insult.
Matt
I apologise for being a little terse. You join our esteemed Prime Minister and many others if you champion a wholesale shift from natural gas to hydrogen without understanding anything about the practicalities of what's really involved. Not in my lifetime is this going to happen. At the periphery we may see some applications but the bulk hydrogen used today across the world is made from reforming natural gas and that isn't going to change any time soon.
PS - There is no new technology involved here. None, it's all been done before around the world for more than 100 years.
RVF
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:To be quite blunt here, your post demonstrates a breath taking lack of understanding of the fundamental issues being discussed about hydrogen.
That's a little rude.I can assure you the running and maintenance of electrolysis plants is orders of magnitude more complex than running large scale battery arrays.
I believe you. I was prepared to discuss the complexities thereof, instead of being cast off with a veiled insult.
Matt
I apologise for being a little terse. You join our esteemed Prime Minister and many others if you champion a wholesale shift from natural gas to hydrogen without understanding anything about the practicalities of what's really involved.
PS - There is no new technology involved here. None, it's all been done before around the world for more than 100 years
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:That's a little rude.
I believe you. I was prepared to discuss the complexities thereof, instead of being cast off with a veiled insult.
Matt
I apologise for being a little terse. You join our esteemed Prime Minister and many others if you champion a wholesale shift from natural gas to hydrogen without understanding anything about the practicalities of what's really involved.
The first sentence was an improvement. But the second one promptly returned the discussion back to the personal.PS - There is no new technology involved here. None, it's all been done before around the world for more than 100 years
Including PEM?
OOI the team which apparently includes our PM, has many members. Lots of Germans and Chinese.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy ... facturing/
So perhaps it would be more polite and constructive to forget about UK politics and talk science.
Matt
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:So perhaps it would be more polite and constructive to forget about UK politics and talk science.
tjh290633 wrote:The scientific point has been missed. We used to use 50% hydrogen in the town gas network, which ran at low pressure because of the manufacturing process. That was why we used the large gasholders. Natural gas came at high pressure, and there is no reason why the same network and inherent high pressure storage should not be used for hydrogen, if required. The local distribution network works at low pressure and could be used for hydrogen distribution, as it was in the past.
There are a lot of red herrings being thrown into this discussion.
TJH
tjh290633 wrote:The scientific point has been missed. We used to use 50% hydrogen in the town gas network...
johnhemming wrote:tjh290633 wrote:The scientific point has been missed. We used to use 50% hydrogen in the town gas network...
and dspp said the current gas network would cope with 15-22%.
However, we are still coming down to the question of what to use hydrogen for. With Town Gas we used hydrogen because that is what the process produced.
For space heating you could, for example, generate some hydrogen through electrolysis and pump it around to people's houses and they could burn it, but why is that better than electrical space heating or having electrically powered hobs on a cooker?