Hydrogen matters

[daveh]

We still seem to be running hydrogen buses in Aberdeen - not sure of the economics. I was going to say they should send their now unwanted buses over here, but of course they'll be left hand drive.

[Hallucigenia]

The Aberdeen buses were funded by JIVE, which is part of the EU Horizon programme which of course we're no longer part of. Numbers vary but it's something like €32m towards 139 buses, so €230k subsidy per bus. Buses cost ~£500k.

Since it mostly seems to be a way to give BP experience of hydrogen vehicles, I suspect that value for ratepayers is not a primary concern given the influence I imagine BP wields on Aberdeen council...

[mearnsfool]

BP have a lot of clout with the government. They are not a particularly big player in Aberdeen now, important but no more important than any of the other large operators here. A good few are producing more barrels per day than them in the northern part of the North Sea.

[Hallucigenia]

They are not a particularly big player in Aberdeen now, important but no more important than any of the other large operators here. A good few are producing more barrels per day than them in the northern part of the North Sea.

Of course, but one thing they are good at is having a disproportionate influence on policy at all levels.

Anyway, the Commons Science and Technology Committee released this report on hydrogen today which seems pretty realistic - albeit released just when nobody will pay attention to it :

https://committees.parliament.uk/commit ... -warn-mps/

The Committee argues that hydrogen will likely have a “specific but limited” role in decarbonising sectors, for example where electrification is not possible, and as a means of storing energy. MPs urge the Government to give the industry more clarity over how and when it will make decisions about the role of hydrogen in the UK economy.

The Committee concludes that hydrogen is not likely to be practically and economically viable for mass use in the short and medium term for heating homes or fuelling passenger cars due to the significant cost, technological and infrastructure challenges associated, as well as the “unassailable” market lead held by alternatives such as electric cars....

The Committee is “unconvinced” that hydrogen will be able to play a widespread role in heating homes by 2026, when the Government has said it could start mandating hydrogen-ready boilers in domestic homes, though it could be feasible to blend some hydrogen with natural gas. It also argues that policy for hydrogen metering in homes has been “overlooked”, with the energy regulator Ofgem unable to say whether current smart meters would be suitable for hydrogen or the cost implications for the consumer if they are not suitable.

The Committee outlines the areas where the use of hydrogen has strong potential, including in the decarbonisation of UK industrial clusters, where hydrogen is already produced; in parts of transport such as areas of the rail network which are hard to electrify, bus networks which have a local pattern of operations susceptible to refuelling at depots, and some parts of shipping and aviation.

[JohnB]

The energy company SSE has begun work to develop an underground cavern in east Yorkshire to store hydrogen, aiming to stockpile the renewable source of power for when the freezing, windless conditions experienced in the last week occur in future.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hire-coast

EDF have just told me my electricity prices from Jan, the ratio of peak to off-peak has risen to 8:1 which is astonishing given the demand doesn't vary that much. It suggests that peak pricing is going to be the bane of the energy industry, perhaps hydrogen can help with smoothing even if it costs far more than the cheapest wind power.

[starquake]

EDF have just told me my electricity prices from Jan, the ratio of peak to off-peak has risen to 8:1 which is astonishing given the demand doesn't vary that much. It suggests that peak pricing is going to be the bane of the energy industry, perhaps hydrogen can help with smoothing even if it costs far more than the cheapest wind power.

The fact Octopus are hyping their EV tariff "intelligent" which charges cars at best times for them/the grid rather than the customer (but still gives you charge when "you" demand it likely will smooth this far more than EDF. Allegedly Octopus have > 70% of EV drivers (source from Twitter from the CEO but was a rough, not final figure). Given their pricing is considerably better as an EV driver than a regular customer I sense a big part of this is to use their "own" turbine outputs at off-peak times when their baseload is otherwise lower than their production.

Wierd fact is people owning lots of turbines need people to pay for their overuse (and prices go negative) if you can't use all your own production. Ie, you end up paying others to use their electricity. The Octopus strategy seems to want to avoid that. EDF with their nuclear baseload, I imagine are similar.

[Laughton]

An update on what's happening at JCB and their development of a hydrogen engine for heavy plant. Good to see that at least one company doing something practical. A few digs at the government re their tunnel view of electricity being the only solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxtxZY45RMM&t=1s

[JonnyT]

Actually the market doesn't work that way. If there is too much wind the operators bid to switch off and on average last year received around a 51% premium on what they would have got had the electricity been generated and used. Thats the Green levy on your electricity bill.

They actually make more money not producing and the UK already has a large overcapacity during none peak hours when the wind blows.

It also doesn't help that Scotland generates far more wind power than it requires and then uses a connector to England which is frequently full so businesses who invested in wind farm in Scotland are making a packet at our expense.

The power market needs radical reform, Boris saw this and promised it just before he was ousted. All gone quiet since.

My solution is to generate the electricity (rather that stop the turbines) and any excess used to make Hydrogen. Makes Hydrogen cheaper, is green and if effectively energy storage. It would also reduce our energy bills.

[Tedx]

I agree. And not just hydrogen, but any kind of storage.

Yesterday I noted that our wind production was not much over 3GW. On some days its as high as 20+.

I'm sure they're working on smoothing it out, but it can't come soon enough.

Then again, I guess that's why they are throwing up these massive offshore turbines - because they know there's not enough kettles to use it and they know they'll get paid a packet for stopping production.

[Laughton]

My solution is to generate the electricity (rather that stop the turbines) and any excess used to make Hydrogen. Makes Hydrogen cheaper, is green and if effectively energy storage. It would also reduce our energy bills.

It seems so obvious, why can't government see the logic?

Isn't it also time for requirement for all new builds (residential and commercial) to include solar panels?

[AJC5001]

My solution is to generate the electricity (rather that stop the turbines) and any excess used to make Hydrogen. Makes Hydrogen cheaper, is green and if effectively energy storage. It would also reduce our energy bills.

It seems so obvious, why can't government see the logic?

Isn't it also time for requirement for all new builds (residential and commercial) to include solar panels?

Why does it need the government to do anything? If it's such a good idea then it should be commercially viable without any need for subsidy.

And perhaps all new builds should include battery storage to take the unused supply for use at peak times rather than solar panels that only produce during daylight.

Adrian

[Laughton]

My solution is to generate the electricity (rather that stop the turbines) and any excess used to make Hydrogen. Makes Hydrogen cheaper, is green and if effectively energy storage. It would also reduce our energy bills.

It seems so obvious, why can't government see the logic?

Isn't it also time for requirement for all new builds (residential and commercial) to include solar panels?

Why does it need the government to do anything? If it's such a good idea then it should be commercially viable without any need for subsidy.

And perhaps all new builds should include battery storage to take the unused supply for use at peak times rather than solar panels that only produce during daylight.

Adrian

I guess because government or an ofshoot of it allocates permission to build the turbines in the first place so shouldn't they think ahead a little bit and make permission conditional on inclusion of storage rather than set up deals where we pay the operators to switch turbines off when they're producing too much electricity. Or only pay when turbines are delivering electricity - maybe that would make storage commercially viable.

Yes, in an ideal world new builds should have solar panels AND battery storage.

[JohnB]

Round trip efficiency for electricity-hydrogen-electricity is about 30%, cf 95% for a battery. It might have merit for inter-seasonal storage, but not for short term load balancing.

[CliffEdge]

Just had the plumber round. Says the boilers he's installing are hydrogen ready but nah hydrogen won't be used in domestic boilers, ever. Too many issues. Thinks it'll be thirty years before gas boilers are banned.

[GrahamPlatt]

The Royal Society report on the UK’s future energy storage rewuirements

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-uk- ... orage.html

Would be best met by Hydrogen in caverns.

[Hallucigenia]

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/product ... -1-1523281

Cost of green hydrogen unlikely to fall 'dramatically' in coming years, admit developers

Renewable H2 costs are actually increasing in the short term due to increased capex and shortages in electrolyser manufacturing capacity

[GrahamPlatt]

Morocco in the running to be supplier of green H2 to Europe

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-mor ... green.html

“The goal is to keep green hydrogen production below $1-$2 per kilogram, Ahmed Reda Chami, president of the Economic, Social and Environmental Counsel, told the weekly La Vie Eco.”

[GrahamPlatt]

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/cost-of-green-hydrogen-unlikely-to-fall-dramatically-in-coming-years-admit-developers/2-1-1523281

Cost of green hydrogen unlikely to fall 'dramatically' in coming years, admit developers

Renewable H2 costs are actually increasing in the short term due to increased capex and shortages in electrolyser manufacturing capacity

They may be wrong…. https://techxplore.com/news/2023-10-green-hydrogen.html

[Hallucigenia]

They may be wrong…. https://techxplore.com/news/2023-10-green-hydrogen.html

Well if it's still at the lab stage it's going to be a while before it's in commercial production. But note what they were saying in my original post :

“The price of renewable electricity for multiple reasons will probably increase,” he said, noting that since power represents 60% of the cost of producing H2 via electrolysis, this would counteract any efficiency or capex gains on the electrolyser.

The cost of the catalyst material is only a fraction of the total cost of green hydrogen.

[Hallucigenia]

Second National Infrastructure Assessment has been released, the headline is :

Around eight million additional buildings will need to switch to low carbon heating by 2035, and all buildings by 2050. Heat pumps and heat networks are the solution. They are highly efficient, available now and being deployed rapidly in other countries. The Commission’s analysis demonstrates that there is no public policy case for hydrogen to be used to heat individual buildings. It should be ruled out as an option to enable an exclusive focus on switching to electrified heat.

https://nic.org.uk/studies-reports/nati ... econd-nia/

This table explains their reasoning, although some will contest the numbers :