Massage and gender

[lisyloo]

Does one have a right to insist a certain gender for a massage?
I have a voucher (a gift) and currently the "right" gender is not available.

[IsleofWightPete]

Does one have a right to insist a certain gender for a massage?
I have a voucher (a gift) and currently the "right" gender is not available.

Not unless that is a service that they say that they offer.
Many masseurs / masseuses will operate as a one man band (or one woman band) so clearly you could not INSIST on them providing someone of the opposite gender.

[lisyloo]

I thought that would probably be the case.
Quite unusual to find a good London hotel spa without any female therapists.

I have thought about it very carefully (as I always want to be treated equally myself). My treatment is meant to be an especially relaxing one and I'm just not sure I could 100% relax wearing nothing but a (too small) paper triangle with a strange (to me) man. If it was a woman and the towel fell off I couldn't give two hoots. Yes I know towels don't just fall off, but there are moments where hands get quite close to your lady/man parts as that is the nature of some treatments. This problem is described quite well by Michael Mcintyre as the subject of comedy.
I also think my husband will not be overjoyed about "another mans hands all over my body" and it will worry me too that he won't be happy (so much for total relaxation - stressed about it already).

It would never have occurred to either of us to check the gender of the therapist as it's quite unusual not to have female therapists in a spa and for a normal massage it wouldn't matter so much, but this is a complete relaxation day as opposed to a sports massage.

but I get the legal point

[Lootman]

Presumably this is a voucher for a massage at a spa with a number of employees, spanning both genders, or the question would not arise. The fact that one gender might not be available on a particular day or at a particular time should not matter unless for some reason you can only visit that one time, or if the voucher is about to expire. If only one gender is ever available and it's the "wrong" gender, then I'd probably re-gift or sell the voucher to someone who wants that gender.

More generally I would say that a massage client absolutely has the right to specify a gender, for at least three reasons:

1) This is not a hiring activity, for which discrimination laws apply. It is simply stating a preference for which already-hired employee attends to you. It's like ringing your local hair salon and asking for an appointment with Joey, not Chloe, or vice versa.

2) There are exceptions to sex discrimination rules where the nature of the job clearly implies one gender over the other. This covers various jobs in the fields of entertainment and sports. It would also hopefully apply to types of legal sex work as well, including strip clubs and more "personal" forms of massage.

3) The activity in question is one that involves fairly intimate personal contact, and gender does become a valid factor there. There may also be the perception of a safety issue for, say, a female client being alone with an unknown male.

As an example my wife always wants a female doctor, at least for anything below the neck. I tend to prefer male doctors about my age, because I feel they understand my "issues" better.

Again. my dentist's office had two perio hygienists, one male and one female. When making an appointment I am always asked which one I want.

That is not to indicate a belief in or approval of gender stereotypes, by the way. We have a female gardener and a female contractor did our last bathroom remodel. We had a male babysitter when our children were small. But sometimes gender matters.

[Sussexlad]

How would you know a guy wasn't homosexual and not the slightest bit interested in you or the female a raving lesbian ?
I'm not clear in this 'enlightened' age, you can still make such clear assumptions. Mixed toilets are on the way too.

[YeeWo]

female a raving lesbian ?

Would a Raving Lesbian not be loaded-up with Disco-Biscuits and shouting "Acceeed"?
Is Raving or Raging the appropriate word in this context?

[Sussexlad]

Is Raving or Raging the appropriate word in this context?

No, you're quite right. I did question the choice myself. Let's say 'enthusiastic !
I know this is a legal forum but it's a genuine enough question.
Surely any decision would now be seen as sexist.

[Slarti]

Mixed toilets are on the way too.

Already exist in some companies I visit and seem to hated by nearly all of the staff.

Management like them as they don't have to waste as much floor space on them.


Slarti

[lisyloo]

presumably this is a voucher for a massage at a spa with a number of employees, spanning both genders

No, there are no female therapists at all at this time at this London spa (highly unusual). Fortunately there is 11 months on my voucher, so waiting is the best option.

Sussexlad - it's not a sexual issue at all. I don't think I'd want to get naked in front of a gay Man. I don't think this is unusual as we have female and male changing rooms in swimming pools/gyms country wide.
To be honest I haven't got to the bottom of the nudity thing - perhaps it is because we've been brought up segregated when we change, but it is certainly not because I think anyone will fancy me or be unprofessional.
Men not wanting other men touching their wives in intimate ways is not because they think she will run off with the therapist, it's a dislike of the intimate touching and I don't even mean in a sexual way. If you don't understand then you don't understand but I think if you asked most guys they wouldn't want their wives being touched in a very relaxing, intimate way - note very different from a massage for the purpose of sports or bodily treatment.
I have no issue with mixed toilets (if guys can get it in the bowl and not all over the floor) as the intimate stuff takes place
behind closed doors so I see no issue there. I am not required to get naked or have people touch me.
Do you think all gyms and swimming pools (pretty much all of them) are sexist?

Mixed toilets are there by the way to cater for new rules for anyone undergoing a change of gender.
For new buildings you need to cater for this.
A 3rd toilet is expensive so most new buildings will have mixed toilets as a cheaper option.
I don't see toilets as being relevant as my issues which are to do with being naked and being touched - it's not sexual but it's highly intimate.
If you don't get it that's fine, but do bear in mind virtually all changing facilities in this country are segregated by gender.
, so I don't think this is unusual at all and in line with society norms.

[Lootman]

Is Raving or Raging the appropriate word in this context?

No, you're quite right. I did question the choice myself. Let's say 'enthusiastic ! I know this is a legal forum but it's a genuine enough question. Surely any decision would now be seen as sexist.

Well, some might say that by qualifying the term "lesbian" with an adjective like "raving" or "enthusiastic" but not qualifying the "male homosexual" reference the same way also suggests sexism. It might be better to drop any such adjectives, especially in a post intended to express politically correctness and gender equality.

The subsequent post by lisyloo suggests that she would feel uncomfortable with a male masseur. Particularly as a man, I am willing to accept that preference at face value, meaning that the fact that the masseur may be homosexual and presumably "not interested" in her, is immaterial. If lisyloo doesn't want a man touching her body then I don't think she either can or should be talked out of that, and certainly not be accused of being sexist.

I do not believe that the sex discrimination laws were ever intended to cover highly personal and intimate encounters like this.

The unisex toilet argument is somewhat different because (at least the ones I have seen) are not shared by different genders at the same time. Rather they hold only one person at a time, and so the issue doesn't arise, in much the same way as they are not an issue on airplanes.

[didds]

Mixed toilets are on the way too.

Already exist in some companies I visit and seem to hated by nearly all of the staff.

I'm struggling to think why anybody could have a problem with a shared set of stalls and hand basins. Then again I don;t work in an office with such a thing. Lower costs for employers means overall and in theory at least a better possibility of more money available for a pay rise (caveat: yes, as part of extended money saving measures etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda)

then again, I mainly work from home, and so use our toilets at home mostly. Which like most homes I would imagine are shared.

Hmmm... one of my local pubs has shared facilities. I don't perceive any issues there, and my son also works there and hasnt; ever mentioned anything.

didds

[didds]

If you don't get it that's fine, but do bear in mind virtually all changing facilities in this country are segregated by gender.
, so I don't think this is unusual at all and in line with society norms.

Yeeee...eee...ssss.. but I'd say that is merely a hangover form the somewhat puritanical views of Victorian society that we have inherited. It is a societal norm in the UK/England of course - but on the continent they clearly have differing views/norms witness shared naked saunas, "centrally located" nudist beaches (not hidden away a mile or more along a coast etc).




didds

[melonfool]

Toilets and sexual orientation are not part of the question and not at all relevant. My take to the OP is- "darn right you have a right to choose". Stick to your guns.

I think you can express a preference but I doubt very much you have a legal right. No-one has come up with one.

References to where it is allowable to employ people of one sex to do certain jobs really are not relevant to the situation and I don't even think masseuse is included in that exclusion anyway. It would have to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim - and as I have only very rarely heard people say they don't want a massage from someone of the opposite sex then it seems doubtful to me that this would stick as a legitimate recruitment practice. I have certainly not seen any case law on it.

The Equality Act 2010 is to prevent discrimination, not encourage it.

"Mixed toilets are there by the way to cater for new rules for anyone undergoing a change of gender.
For new buildings you need to cater for this."

Which new rules are these then - I've not seen or heard of them?

Nothing about it here, for example:

http://www.washroomcubicles.co.uk/how-m ... -you-need/

Transgenderism isn't even mentioned.

Mel

[Lootman]

References to where it is allowable to employ people of one sex to do certain jobs really are not relevant to the situation and I don't even think masseuse is included in that exclusion anyway. It would have to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim - and as I have only very rarely heard people say they don't want a massage from someone of the oppforosite sex then it seems doubtful to me that this would stick as a legitimate recruitment practice. I have certainly not seen any case law on it.

Surely any question about hiring practices is for the spa, not the customer. So yes, if a spa advertised a job as only being for men, or only being for women, then they may be crossing the line and may be accused of discriminatory hiring policies.

But the issue here is a customer making a request for a particular type of person to attend to them. And assuming the spa has both male and female operatives, I really do not see what legal issue arises. As I noted earlier, it's not unusual for people to prefer a doctor of a particular gender. I always want a woman to cut my hair and so choose a hair place where a woman works. I have NEVER been told in such situations that my request is contrary to law, and my wish has always been accommodated.

What I would expect a spa to do is staff themselves so they can satisfy the largest possible number of clients and potential requests. And that implies having a very open hiring policy - not the opposite. However, if 90% of their clients request a female masseuse, then presumably their hiring and staffing would be appropriate to meet that demand.

My wife loves to spa (using that as a verb) so I've visited a lot. The staff always seems to be overwhelmingly female.

[melonfool]

References to where it is allowable to employ people of one sex to do certain jobs really are not relevant to the situation and I don't even think masseuse is included in that exclusion anyway. It would have to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim - and as I have only very rarely heard people say they don't want a massage from someone of the opposite sex then it seems doubtful to me that this would stick as a legitimate recruitment practice. I have certainly not seen any case law on it.

Surely any question about "hiring" is one for the spa, not the customer. So yes, if a spa advertised a job as only being for men, or only being for women, then they may be crossing the line and may be accused of discriminatory hiring policies.

Yes, that's exactly my point. There is an exclusion in the Act for hiring - but a *customer* cannot rely on that exclusion as was suggested up thread. Not that the exclusion is shown to apply here anyway, I don't think it would.

But the issue here is a customer making a request for a particular type of person to attend to them. And assuming the spa has both male and female operatives, I really do not see what legal issue arises.

The OP has said they only employ men (which is odd in itself and makes one wonder about their hiring practices and who they think their customers are).

As I noted earlier, it's not unusual for people to prefer a doctor of a particular gender. I always want a woman to cut my hair and so choose a hair place where a woman works. I have NEVER been told in such situations that my request is contrary to law, and my wish has always been accommodated.

No-one would tell you it was "contrary to law" because people don't talk like that to their customers. They would say "we'll see what we can do" and accommodate you, as you have found. But you chose somewhere with women hairdressers, had you chosen somewhere with none the situation would have been different.

I think doctors is a totally different issue though - I've never asked for a female doctor myself but I have had the receptionist ask me if I would prefer one, I always no, I don't care - but the choice may be 'male Monday or female Wednesday' or something, if you want to specify how the service is delivered then you cannot expect to get the same service.

Mind you, I can't think of any reason why someone would care about the gender of their hairdresser - well, I can but it isn't a good reason.

My wife loves to spa (using that as a verb) so I've visited a lot. The staff always seems to be overwhelmingly female.

Yes, which is why I find it odd that this one only seems to employ males. Makes me wonder if it isn't maybe not the kind of place the OP thinks it is!

Mel

[Lootman]

Mind you, I can't think of any reason why someone would care about the gender of their hairdresser - well, I can but it isn't a good reason.

Nothing sinister about my preference, although I can't totally explain it either. If I go into a shop to buy something I cannot imagine that I would ever care about the gender of the assistant. I just want someone who is civil, efficient and informed. The same applies to a wide array of services I might consume, like estate agent, banker, solicitor, accountant etc. It just doesn't matter.

But when the service being provided is something more physical, like a massage, a haircut or a medical examination, then I do have a preference. Getting one's hair cut is hardly an exercise in intimacy or sensuality. It's just a personal thing - I feel a little better when a woman cuts my hair, and I particularly don't like a man washing my hair. Nor is it always a preference for a woman - as I said earlier I prefer male doctors.

I think the law should allow for those who have such preferences, but only where it is an encounter of a close kind, if that can be well defined.

[Slarti]

Mixed toilets are on the way too.

Already exist in some companies I visit and seem to hated by nearly all of the staff.

I'm struggling to think why anybody could have a problem with a shared set of stalls and hand basins.

If you're in a cubical and someone in an adjacent one lets off a ripsnorter, it can quite put you off that person as a prospective partner, or if you do it give rise to great embarrassment when you find the the person you were trying to impress was an audible/olfactory witness.

Plus you can get grief from women for standing to pee.

Slarti

[Slarti]

The unisex toilet argument is somewhat different because (at least the ones I have seen) are not shared by different genders at the same time. Rather they hold only one person at a time, and so the issue doesn't arise, in much the same way as they are not an issue on airplanes.

Other than the disabled facilities in buildings with normal separate male and female loos, the locations with shared facilities have had 5 or more cubicals, up to 15 in a large open plan office, where there were 2 facilities. Although they were were marked as unisex, they were mostly one used by the men and one by the women.


I hate the loos on aeroplanes as they are usually disgusting. And very, very small.

Slarti

[PinkDalek]

If you're in a cubical and someone in an adjacent one lets off a ripsnorter, ...

I'd find a different shape to avoid such a possibility.

[Slarti]

The subsequent post by lisyloo suggests that she would feel uncomfortable with a male masseur. Particularly as a man, I am willing to accept that preference at face value, meaning that the fact that the masseur may be homosexual and presumably "not interested" in her, is immaterial. If lisyloo doesn't want a man touching her body then I don't think she either can or should be talked out of that, and certainly not be accused of being sexist.

I do not believe that the sex discrimination laws were ever intended to cover highly personal and intimate encounters like this.

If were I to go for a massage, I would not want to have a masseuse for fear of showing the noble response to a stranger.

Hence I can understand a lady not wanting a strange man handling her and would expect establishments providing such services to be aware os, and cater to, such wishes.

Slarti