Massage and gender

[Lootman]

I hate the loos on aeroplanes as they are usually disgusting. And very, very small.

Not all of them:

https://www.google.com/search?q=etihad+ ... tY2H60M%3A

[melonfool]

If were I to go for a massage, I would not want to have a masseuse for fear of showing the noble response to a stranger.

Hence I can understand a lady not wanting a strange man handling her and would expect establishments providing such services to be aware os, and cater to, such wishes.

Slarti

A male masseur wouldn't be a stranger, or you don't mind of you get an erection in front of a man, just in front of women?

Just wondering....

Mel

(have a back massage, then they won't know )

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Discussion of mixed toilets, (and phrasing about the sexual preferences of individuals) is not a legal issue in the context of the original question. Please try and stay on-topic (chas49)

[lisyloo]

And assuming the spa has both male and female operatives, I really do not see what legal issue arises

lootman - as already mention the spa at this moment in time has NO female operatives (it's a relatively up market London hotel).
Neither of us checked as it never occurred to us in a million years that this would be the case.

To clarify the legal issue would be "could I get a refund" and I believe the answer would be NO because the spa is offering the service as described, however reasonable my request.
Of course I am aware of the other options available - wait, sell at a loss, exchange for something else, ASK nicely for a refund etc. but I was asking here for the definitive version of where I stand, partly out of curiosity but I also like to know where I stand when negotiating.
I accept that the spa is offering the service as described.

The OP has said they only employ men (which is odd in itself and makes one wonder about their hiring practices and who they think their customers are).

I don't know but I am assuming this might be a temporary situation that they find themselves in right now and not necessarily a policy or hiring practice. Or it could be that only certain therapists within the spa are trained up on that particular treatment (which is more than just a massage).
I don't know as I've been emailing someone whose first language appears not be English (common in London).

As I have 11 months on the voucher I'm choosing to wait and will see what their staffing situation is in a month or two. I may also drop by when I'm in the area to clarify exactly what the situation is which will be easier in person than leaving phone messages and email.
If towards the end of the 12 months we're still not comfortable then I don't see any reason that the hotel wouldn't allow us to exchange for something of equal (or greater) value.

[Lootman]

To clarify the legal issue would be "could I get a refund" and I believe the answer would be NO because the spa is offering the service as described, however reasonable my request.

Yes, sorry, when I said I didn't see a legal issue here I was referring to a suggestion that there may be a discrimination issue involved. I do not believe that there is and think your request is entirely fair and reasonable.

Of course I am aware of the other options available - wait, sell at a loss, exchange for something else, ASK nicely for a refund etc. but I was asking here for the definitive version of where I stand, partly out of curiosity but I also like to know where I stand when negotiating.
I accept that the spa is offering the service as described.

As I have 11 months on the voucher I'm choosing to wait and will see what their staffing situation is in a month or two. I may also drop by when I'm in the area to clarify exactly what the situation is which will be easier in person than leaving phone messages and email.
If towards the end of the 12 months we're still not comfortable then I don't see any reason that the hotel wouldn't allow us to exchange for something of equal (or greater) value.

I feel sure that a high-end spa in a London hotel would make you whole here, one way or the other. But in terms of negotiating with them I would not wait too long. The voucher you have is a wasting asset and you will have less leverage as it approaches expiry. It will also lose value in terms of a gift or sale.

One other observation. If this is like other spas then they will have a core of regular masseurs but also contract people who fill in at busy times or to cover absences. Perhaps they could arrange for one to come in who would meet your requirements.

This is an interesting one. Do come back and let us know how it was resolved.

[lisyloo]

Why do you think I have less leverage with the hotel say in the 10th month rather than the 1st? I don't see that. I'm entitled to the full service for the full 12 months (but would never leave it too late due to limits on my own availability).
I would really like to have the gift that my husband bought for me and negotiating something else is a last resort rather than losing it.
At this point I think i'd prefer to wait as it may well be just a temporary staffing issue. I will also see if I can have a chat with the manager when I'm passing and find out if they are recruiting or what the situation is.

[NomoneyNohoney]

Already exist in some companies I visit and seem to hated by nearly all of the staff.

I'm struggling to think why anybody could have a problem with a shared set of stalls and hand basins.

If you're in a cubical and someone in an adjacent one lets off a ripsnorter, it can quite put you off that person as a prospective partner, or if you do it give rise to great embarrassment when you find the the person you were trying to impress was an audible/olfactory witness.

Plus you can get grief from women for standing to pee.

Slarti

I find the idea of mixed toilets horrifying. What happens when a woman walks in and sees the only other user is male, or vice versa. Actually, no point in me rambling on about 'why,' it's just a horrible idea.

[melonfool]

I'm struggling to think why anybody could have a problem with a shared set of stalls and hand basins.

If you're in a cubical and someone in an adjacent one lets off a ripsnorter, it can quite put you off that person as a prospective partner, or if you do it give rise to great embarrassment when you find the the person you were trying to impress was an audible/olfactory witness.

Plus you can get grief from women for standing to pee.

Slarti

I find the idea of mixed toilets horrifying. What happens when a woman walks in and sees the only other user is male, or vice versa. Actually, no point in me rambling on about 'why,' it's just a horrible idea.

No different to when you walk into, say, a shop, or a meeting room, or a bar, and see that there is only one other person and they are the opposite sex. You smile and get on with what you're doing. You do know there are doors on the actual loos, don';t you?

Loads of restaurants have this now, I've never given it a second thought.

And the comment about the 'ripsnorter' presumes one is heterosexual, this could happen in single sex loos to homosexuals already.

Mel

[quelquod]

People generally are just conditioned. It's difficult to see objectively what the difference is between walking past someone of the opposite gender to enter a toilet, and walking past the same someone to enter a toilet cubicle.

I think the points about having an absolute right to choose whoever to provide a personal service are well made, but I doubt very much if they extend to requiring any particular establishment or business to provide a choice to suit. The option as always is to walk away.

[melonfool]

Of course, should the OP turn out to be of the Muslim faith, the spa would have no option but to provide a female to provide the massage.

Why?

As this is the legal board, what law are you referring to?

Mel

[chas49]

Hmmm, off topic? How do you know the OP is not a Muslim but would rather not say so?

Well, I don't, but you don't know that she is either. However, it seemed that the topic was veering into questions of discrimination which weren't raised by the OP, and which would be better discussed in a separate topic. This would not be closing off the discussion, merely separating out two different issues.

My suggestion that the topic will be split if there is a desire for further discussion of the discrimination issue still stands. If people post on that subject, I'll split it. If they don't, I'll just leave these posts here.

This isn't intended to be a rebuke but we won't enter into extended discussion of mod decisions within the thread

[quelquod]

But despite individual preferences or, for that matter, religiously required ones, there is no onus on any business to have any particular gender of employee. This is not a question of discrimination but rather, having adhered to the legalities, that they may just not have the particular gender required whether masseur, electrician, hairdresser, navvy or whatever on any particular occasion. If the business can't suit the customer they'll lose trade but that has to be balanced against any other considerations.

[lisyloo]

Agree with quelquod.
There is no obligation on the hotel to provide a certain gender.
If you have strong restrictions then you should check before you buy - the reason we didn't check is that this is a highly female dominated profession and it's also not a strong restriction, I just have reservations about being able to relax 100% and this is a tranquility/sleep treatment.
I am planning to go to the hotel on Monday to find out what the situation is. Ifs it temporary I will wait, if it's not I will ask if we can exchange which should not be an issue for them.

[Itsallaguess]

Why do you think I have less leverage with the hotel say in the 10th month rather than the 1st? I don't see that. I'm entitled to the full service for the full 12 months (but would never leave it too late due to limits on my own availability).

I would really like to have the gift that my husband bought for me and negotiating something else is a last resort rather than losing it.

At this point I think I'd prefer to wait as it may well be just a temporary staffing issue. I will also see if I can have a chat with the manager when I'm passing and find out if they are recruiting or what the situation is.

Disregarding the 'less-leverage' angle for a minute, wouldn't it be sensible to tell the hotel what the issue is at the earliest possible opportunity simply for the fact that if you're not the only person having this issue, then they might be in a position to influence a potential solution that you're happy with?

If they aren't aware of the problem, they can't help at all until they are made aware of it.

I can't think of a good reason to wait, to be honest.

For the avoidance of doubt, I've got a lot of sympathy with your position. I think a company providing spa services in this area should always endeavour to provide appropriate options to their potential clients. They seem to be letting you down in this area at this point in time, and I hope you're able to find a solution that you're happy with, that allows you to enjoy the present you've received.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[lisyloo]

Yes I agree with "at the earliest" which is why I'm going on Monday to speak in person to the manager to find out what the situation is, pass on my concerns which may influence their employment and investigate what the options might be.

I maybe misunderstood the "wasting asset" and "less leverage" references as if I couldn't make it for 6 months for some reason and tried to book it in month 7, I'd expect the same excellent treatment from a top hotel.
I agree that if you knowingly sit on an issue then you don't give the other party the opportunity to resolve it.

Cheers

[lisyloo]

Went into the spa on Monday evening.
Got the first date and female therapist preference straight away
I enquired and it appeared the shifts had been moved around just before.
The manager took a note to discuss with her staff being more helpful/proactive - but I was trying to do it by email.

[quelquod]

Nothing beats a face to face.