Waste pipes legality for freehold flats

[Patty313]

Hello - In the event of sorting out repeated blockage events, I discovered upstairs flat routes their waste pipe into my flat and ours jointly route under my floorboard* and goes into the main sewage pipe. *I believe under the floor board*. It’s hard to tell because my place is carpeted. But looking at the pipe from the wall outside my balcony, it looks about right to be under my floor board

When any of the washing machines from upstairs is running, a heavy influx of water would come into my floor (first floor), and at times, it travels all the way into my kitchen. It caused an overflow and damaged downstairs ceiling when I was abroad last week.

In the Easter weekend, it caused water backing up into my kitchen sink and I had to empty the waste water nonstop for about an hour.

I’ve been researching all day today and on this website, I saw a post that suggested my neighbour could have illegally joined their wastes pipe with mine and “trespass” my property.

Is there a free legal body that i can consult? I’m reluctant to have any confrontation but I feel I’m being “cornered” being the newest owner of this building. I already spent thousands on a recent rooftop repair because my two other neighbours negligence. The insurance won’t accept the claim as they said it is due to a lack of maintenance. When I moved in, I’ve asked to have regular meeting to review maintenance but neither responded. They denied to pay for cleaning fee for our front entrance, upstairs stated they are seldom home to use it and downstairs does have a separate entry. So I have to clean it myself regularly. With the roof top issue, it was due to lack of maintenance and they used their preferred builder. I paid up without questioning but this round with the water damage, they insisted on using the same builder, who quoted me more than 3 times the cost of a plumber who helped me in the Easter weekend as an emergency. The builder also sent me a message telling me I shouldn’t get a plumber for upstairs even the issue is a communal issue and impacts me and downstairs the most. And all I needed upstairs’ help is to run their machine to test if the blockage is resolved for Good

He also wasted 2 days of my week doing things that I think is unnecessary, he checked the dish washer but not the washing machine. He used a manual wire to look for blockage and found little. (Pinky toe size of hair which is possible to be from the sink of upstairs as he explained washing machine has filters) but then when I questioned about the “jet clean” service on the quote, he returned with a unblocking solution that costs £18.00 and he used half of it in my already unblocked pipe. He did spend some time to run the water to understand the water flow from my bathroom and kitchen and hence we are able to understand the machine from upstairs caused the influx of water goes into my pipe. But that doesn’t see to warrant the cost, which is almost 2k.

With all in mind, I am thinking the worst and would like to understand my legal right before make a suggestion to upstairs neighbour to split their waste pipes from mine, and route it to the main sewage. She is selling her flat so the new occupiers would certainly be home all the time, which will make blockage a more frequent event. And I’d like to sort this out sooner rather than later.

Separately, do you know if i need a permission from the council to split the pipes? I’m a new flat owner and admittedly very ignorant in all things around owning a home.

Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you.

Best
Patty

[didds]

Citizens Advice Bureau and check your household insurances for a legal helpline - and if the flat comes under a general all building policy ask for legal helpline details off the freeholder who presumably holds that buildings insurance

[Patty313]

Citizens Advice Bureau and check your household insurances for a legal helpline - and if the flat comes under a general all building policy ask for legal helpline details off the freeholder who presumably holds that buildings insurance

thanks so much!

[mc2fool]

Welcome to The Lemon Fool.

There's a few things that aren't quite clear from your post that could be important to know and understand.

Firstly, which country is your flat in? England, Scotland, Wales, NI? It can make a difference.

Secondly, it's not clear what the ownership status is. You've titled this "for freehold flats", so are you saying that each flat in the building is itself freehold? If so there should be a covenant relating to building maintenance. Or possibly the building itself is freehold with each flat having a lease within that, in which case who is the freeholder and what does your lease say about building maintenance? Possibly the building has been collectively enfranchised and each lessee has a share of the freehold directly, or the freehold is held by a company of which each lessee is a shareholder or member? Finally on the ownership point, you ask if you need permission from the council to split the pipes; why do you ask this? Is the building and/or some of the flats owned by the local authority?

You say you are a new flat owner, well the ownership matter and the responsibilities within the building should have been explained to you by your solicitor, and if it's not clear then get onto them and ask for clarity.

You also say that the flat above is in the process of being sold, which may well give an opportunity, although how will depend on the ownership structure.

[Dicky99]

Citizens Advice Bureau and check your household insurances for a legal helpline - and if the flat comes under a general all building policy ask for legal helpline details off the freeholder who presumably holds that buildings insurance

I agree that this is as much a legal issue as a technical one. You could start by looking at the wording of your lease to establish what it says about responsibility for shared drainage pipes or get someone with a legal understanding to do so for you.

Also be clear on the technical terms. Waste pipes are the small diameter pipes routed from each bath, basin, sink etc. These will likely be the responsibility for keeping free flowing of the flat in which they are located. These waste pipes each connect into a single larger diameter (4") vertical pipe known as a soil stack which will in turn connect into a below ground branch drain. Because the soil stack and branch drain collects drainage from all of the flats waste pipes it will be a shared responsibility to keep that free flowing as will the below ground branch drain which the soil stack discharges in to.

[bungeejumper]

We own the freehold of a block which is partially leasehold - the rest is owned directly by our company. That's different from your freehold set-up, of course, where the responsibilities of individual freeholders will have been set out in the legal paperwork that came with them when the flats were sold. I've seen situations where the top floor flat is wholly responsible for maintaining the whole roof!

But I think it's more normal for structural and service issues to be managed by an estate and/or service charge fund which will not be within the sole control of the various owners. Somebody is running that fund for your building, and it's a matter of finding out who that is. (It may well be an outsourced management agency.)

But it's just not acceptable for individual flat owners to deny any responsibility for shared facilities, and they really can't stipulate which builders other people should use - that's for the management agency to decide. I have heard of a case where one freeholder tried to dictate an expensive builder to the others - it turned out that she had several rental properties, and that her builder was giving her sweetheart cheap deals on all her other properties in exchange for her getting him all the lucrative contracts on just this one! (That one went to legal action in the end - I don't think they've ended it yet?)

For what it's worth, I'd doubt that a washing machine or dishwasher outlet is causing a problem if it's connected to a big drain pipe or a toilet waste pipe. But if there's a blockage or a pinch-point lower down in the system that's generally slowing things down, I suppose a very busy machine might be backing up and causing a spill into the upstairs kitchen, which then comes through your ceiling?

Have a look at the grey washing machine standpipe in this image, and look at how the drain hose sits loosely into the top of it. It's not even designed to be watertight! (Although a dishwasher outlet, OTOH, would certainly have to be watertight, because it's carrying food gunk.) Now imagine what would happen if the pipe got blocked lower down. This isn't just your problem!


As the key freeholders, we do all this sort of management and tendering stuff through our property's service charge, and nobody ever complains because we don't charge anything for managing the fund at all. Not all service/estate managers are quite so selfless as us. But I fear that it might come down to the small print in the various contracts, though. Wishing you every success.

BJ

[Patty313]

Welcome to The Lemon Fool.

There's a few things that aren't quite clear from your post that could be important to know and understand.

Firstly, which country is your flat in? England, Scotland, Wales, NI? It can make a difference.

Secondly, it's not clear what the ownership status is. You've titled this "for freehold flats", so are you saying that each flat in the building is itself freehold? If so there should be a covenant relating to building maintenance. Or possibly the building itself is freehold with each flat having a lease within that, in which case who is the freeholder and what does your lease say about building maintenance? Possibly the building has been collectively enfranchised and each lessee has a share of the freehold directly, or the freehold is held by a company of which each lessee is a shareholder or member? Finally on the ownership point, you ask if you need permission from the council to split the pipes; why do you ask this? Is the building and/or some of the flats owned by the local authority?

You say you are a new flat owner, well the ownership matter and the responsibilities within the building should have been explained to you by your solicitor, and if it's not clear then get onto them and ask for clarity.

You also say that the flat above is in the process of being sold, which may well give an opportunity, although how will depend on the ownership structure.

Thanks @BBCode. =)
My flat is in England, London

Thanks. I will dig up my
>> Possibly the building has been collectively enfranchised and each lessee has a share of the freehold directly, or the freehold is held by a company of which each lessee is a shareholder or member?
I think it's the latter as I saw letters that is addressed to a limited company named after our street address name. And my upstairs neighbour manages that company.

>> you ask if you need permission from the council to split the pipes; why do you ask this? Is the building and/or some of the flats owned by the local authority
no, the building is owned by 3 of us, I'm the smallest owner as my flat is the smallest of the 3. In the case my upstairs agrees to split the smaller pipes (shown outside the building's wall *18 centimetres), I would require authorisation from the planning authority. I'd like to understand the timeline to get this fixed, ideally before the new upstairs owner moves in.

>> You say you are a new flat owner, well the ownership matter and the responsibilities within the building should have been explained to you by your solicitor, and if it's not clear then get onto them and ask for clarity.
I'll reach out to them and see if they will help as I've lived here for 1.5 years now. thanks for the advice.

>> You also say that the flat above is in the process of being sold, which may well give an opportunity, although how will depend on the ownership structure.
Do you mean the existing owner will be more willing to get it fixed in a permenant way? I hope so too.

Thanks so much for all the pointers given so far.

[DrFfybes]

I agree with BJ - the issue has arisen because of a blockage downstream of your sink, and your sink is the lowest point before the blockage for the water to come back up through.

If this is a new issue (and I'd assume the downstairs neighbour would tell you if it is not) then initial remedy would be 5 min of hot water folllowed by a few doses of proprietry drain unblocker down your sink late one evening. Then the following morning run hot water again then half fill the sink and use a plunger. Note that a plunger works on the UP stroke - pulling the blockage back towards you and often breaking it up so it flos away. Using it on the downstroke can simply compact the blockage.

This obviously does not solve the core issue of poor design and build, in fact I'd be surprised if it conforms to Building Regs (but if the flats are a converted house then a lot of interesting things were done at the time).

Ideally all flats would drain directly to outside, where the drains would empty into a larger soil pipe.

You might want to consider an official complaint/dispute with the upstairs neighbour if this is not sorted ASAP - they would need to declare this to their buyer and could jeapordise the sale.

Paul

[mc2fool]

>> You also say that the flat above is in the process of being sold, which may well give an opportunity, although how will depend on the ownership structure.
Do you mean the existing owner will be more willing to get it fixed in a permenant way?

Actually I meant that you might be able to create grief for encourage the seller to fix the situation as part of it being sold (although that might be problematic if the seller is also who manages the freehold company).

Assuming what you have is a leasehold flat within a freehold building, then you may remember when you bought the place you received from the freeholder, via the solicitors, a form titled Leasehold Property Enquiries, aka LPE1.

One of the sections of that is about disputes and asks "6.2 Are there any documented unresolved disputes with the Lessees of any of the properties in the Managed Area?". If you make sure that the freeholder knows that you have this unresolved dispute (and document it, i.e. put it in writing) then the freeholder will have to answer yes to that (or lie) and give details when filing in the LPE1 for the sale of the upstairs flat, and that means that the buyer will know about it before they've exchanged contracts, and at that point they may well require the situation to be fixed before they buy the flat or as a condition of the sale.

Now, you say it's the upstairs neighbour that manages the freehold company but they can't be the one to fill in the LPE1 for the sale of their flat, that'd be a direct conflict of interests. There must be another director that will do so (or, at least, will put their signature to it, irrespective of who actually fills it in.)

[bungeejumper]

If this is a new issue (and I'd assume the downstairs neighbour would tell you if it is not) then initial remedy would be 5 min of hot water folllowed by a few doses of proprietry drain unblocker down your sink late one evening. Then the following morning run hot water again then half fill the sink and use a plunger. Note that a plunger works on the UP stroke - pulling the blockage back towards you and often breaking it up so it flos away. Using it on the downstroke can simply compact the blockage.

Yes, that's always worth a try before calling Dyno-Rod. And it's low-impact too, insofar as it [might, if successful] avoid the need to get heavy with your neighbours.

Be a bit careful with the proprietary drain cleaners (HG, Mr Muscle etc), and read the instructions.They're fine on their own, and doused down with plentiful quantities of water, but never be tempted to use them at the same time as bleach. Satan's chemistry set - clouds of stinky and utterly toxic gases can result. Keep the windows open just in case. Seriously!

At a lower level, I sometimes use old-fashioned washing soda crystals to clear and de-stink waste pipes. Your challenge would be to find a supermarket that still sells it.

BJ

[mc2fool]

Be a bit careful with the proprietary drain cleaners (HG, Mr Muscle etc), and read the instructions.They're fine on their own, and doused down with plentiful quantities of water, but never be tempted to use them at the same time as bleach. Satan's chemistry set - clouds of stinky and utterly toxic gases can result. Keep the windows open just in case. Seriously!

At a lower level, I sometimes use old-fashioned washing soda crystals to clear and de-stink waste pipes. Your challenge would be to find a supermarket that still sells it.

Spirit of Salts works pretty well too -- and definitely do not use at the same time as soda!

[servodude]

Be a bit careful with the proprietary drain cleaners (HG, Mr Muscle etc), and read the instructions.They're fine on their own, and doused down with plentiful quantities of water, but never be tempted to use them at the same time as bleach. Satan's chemistry set - clouds of stinky and utterly toxic gases can result. Keep the windows open just in case. Seriously!

At a lower level, I sometimes use old-fashioned washing soda crystals to clear and de-stink waste pipes. Your challenge would be to find a supermarket that still sells it.

Spirit of Salts works pretty well too -- and definitely do not use at the same time as soda!

On the other hand...
if you've sealed your overflow it could be a way of getting the hitherto uninterested upstairs engaged?

[kempiejon]

At a lower level, I sometimes use old-fashioned washing soda crystals to clear and de-stink waste pipes. Your challenge would be to find a supermarket that still sells it.

I use Dri Pak soda crystals for the bathroom, found in the washing isle in my local supermarkets, Tesco and Morrisons. Boiling water and a a good dose. They will help usually clear soap scum etc. I agree with a good plunging too. I've lusted after one of these for some time https://www.amazon.co.uk/Luigis-Small-P ... d2e0f&th=1 but have the old style Darlek arm. The upstroke in my shower often pulls out a mat of hair

For more serious blockages especially the kitchen which can get a bit fatty caustic soda (which I think I picked up from B&Q) is more severe but that's a harsh basic chemical and needs treating with care, goggles and gloves. It'll burn skin. I don't bother with any of the branded stuff.

[bungeejumper]

I agree with a good plunging too. I've lusted after one of these for some time https://www.amazon.co.uk/Luigis-Small-P ... d2e0f&th=1

Oooh, you are awful. Poor Luigi, with his small ("but powerful") blue one. It's cruel to mock the afflicted, you know.

Since we're dispensing practical sink-plunging tips in this legal issues forum, I suppose somebody ought to mention that plunging a sink is no damn use at all unless you've taped up the sink overflow first. (Duhhhh.)

BJ

[Dicky99]

I saw letters that is addressed to a limited company named after our street address name. And my upstairs neighbour manages that company..

In that case you can go onto the Companies House website, type in the search bar the name you believe it has and see if you are returned the name of the limited Co. If so it will have details of the Director's names. If your neighbour is a Director of the Company which owns the freehold they will be responsible for complying with the Landlord obligations in your lease, one of which will very likely to be to keep the shared drains free flowing.

Be wary of trying to clear blockages yourself using aggressive products. You may cause additional problems. The description of your sink overflowing or constantly back surging resulting in it having to be ladelled out suggests it is the shared stack which is blocked, below your flat, such that the stack has filled up to a level higher than the level of your sink.
It is really unlikely that you will be able to treat such a blockage with off the shelf products which are intended for U bend blockages not soil stack blockages which generally need to be professionally jetted.

[chas49]

At a lower level, I sometimes use old-fashioned washing soda crystals to clear and de-stink waste pipes. Your challenge would be to find a supermarket that still sells it.

BJ

We get it from Ocado. B&Q and Tesco also stock it. And Amazon.

(Edit - I see someone already said this!)

[Patty313]

We own the freehold of a block which is partially leasehold - the rest is owned directly by our company. That's different from your freehold set-up, of course, where the responsibilities of individual freeholders will have been set out in the legal paperwork that came with them when the flats were sold. I've seen situations where the top floor flat is wholly responsible for maintaining the whole roof!

But I think it's more normal for structural and service issues to be managed by an estate and/or service charge fund which will not be within the sole control of the various owners. Somebody is running that fund for your building, and it's a matter of finding out who that is. (It may well be an outsourced management agency.)

But it's just not acceptable for individual flat owners to deny any responsibility for shared facilities, and they really can't stipulate which builders other people should use - that's for the management agency to decide. I have heard of a case where one freeholder tried to dictate an expensive builder to the others - it turned out that she had several rental properties, and that her builder was giving her sweetheart cheap deals on all her other properties in exchange for her getting him all the lucrative contracts on just this one! (That one went to legal action in the end - I don't think they've ended it yet?)

For what it's worth, I'd doubt that a washing machine or dishwasher outlet is causing a problem if it's connected to a big drain pipe or a toilet waste pipe. But if there's a blockage or a pinch-point lower down in the system that's generally slowing things down, I suppose a very busy machine might be backing up and causing a spill into the upstairs kitchen, which then comes through your ceiling?

Have a look at the grey washing machine standpipe in this image, and look at how the drain hose sits loosely into the top of it. It's not even designed to be watertight! (Although a dishwasher outlet, OTOH, would certainly have to be watertight, because it's carrying food gunk.) Now imagine what would happen if the pipe got blocked lower down. This isn't just your problem!


As the key freeholders, we do all this sort of management and tendering stuff through our property's service charge, and nobody ever complains because we don't charge anything for managing the fund at all. Not all service/estate managers are quite so selfless as us. But I fear that it might come down to the small print in the various contracts, though. Wishing you every success.

BJ

Thanks so much BJ.
>>For what it's worth, I'd doubt that a washing machine or dishwasher outlet is causing a problem if it's connected to a big drain pipe or a toilet waste pipe. But if there's a blockage or a pinch-point lower down in the system that's generally slowing things down, I suppose a very busy machine might be backing up and causing a spill into the upstairs kitchen, which then comes through your ceiling?


in our test, when upstairs ran their bathroom sink, there's no impact to the pipe in my flat. When any machine is used, perhaps a larger amount of water exits at the same time, the water will run into the pipe and rises up. In the event that there's a minor blockage, the water will rise up and if there's blockage, it will travel all the way to my kitchen and cause an overflow either in my kitchen sink, or the pipe, which results in damaging downstairs.

My plumber has suggested me to install a non returning valve to prevent the water from backing into my pipe. But i'm nervous that if the valve breaks/malfunctions, the water has no where to go and will burst the pipe.


>>But it's just not acceptable for individual flat owners to deny any responsibility for shared facilities, and they really can't stipulate which builders other people should use - that's for the management agency to decide. I have heard of a case where one freeholder tried to dictate an expensive builder to the others - it turned out that she had several rental properties, and that her builder was giving her sweetheart cheap deals on all her other properties in exchange for her getting him all the lucrative contracts on just this one! (That one went to legal action in the end - I don't think they've ended it yet?)

Agreed, but we don't have a management company and I felt I have to comply to the other 2 owners. The story that you referred to is what I'm nervous about as it doesn't make any sense for her to insist on using the service that costs much more and in the end, the service was comparable. As for downstairs, it's not paying out of his pocket as it's not his flat. It's an office, which I think is expensable by the company, and he's helping to manage the admins for the company.

thanks so much for your feedback.

[Patty313]

I agree with BJ - the issue has arisen because of a blockage downstream of your sink, and your sink is the lowest point before the blockage for the water to come back up through.

If this is a new issue (and I'd assume the downstairs neighbour would tell you if it is not) then initial remedy would be 5 min of hot water folllowed by a few doses of proprietry drain unblocker down your sink late one evening. Then the following morning run hot water again then half fill the sink and use a plunger. Note that a plunger works on the UP stroke - pulling the blockage back towards you and often breaking it up so it flos away. Using it on the downstroke can simply compact the blockage.

This obviously does not solve the core issue of poor design and build, in fact I'd be surprised if it conforms to Building Regs (but if the flats are a converted house then a lot of interesting things were done at the time).

Ideally all flats would drain directly to outside, where the drains would empty into a larger soil pipe.

You might want to consider an official complaint/dispute with the upstairs neighbour if this is not sorted ASAP - they would need to declare this to their buyer and could jeapordise the sale.

Paul

Hi Paul, thanks so much.
>> But it's just not acceptable for individual flat owners to deny any responsibility for shared facilities, and they really can't stipulate which builders other people should use - that's for the management agency to decide. I have heard of a case where one freeholder tried to dictate an expensive builder to the others - it turned out that she had several rental properties, and that her builder was giving her sweetheart cheap deals on all her other properties in exchange for her getting him all the lucrative contracts on just this one! (That one went to legal action in the end - I don't think they've ended it yet?)


this is exactly what I'd like to understand if the building has violated any design / regulation ASAP, so I could use this opportunity to motivate a permenant fix.

I saw other helpful advice using baking soda etc. Trust me I've tried them all. In fact, the time my kitchen sink has backed up water in the Easter weekend was when tried using a plunger that I bought on the day trying to fix the slow-draining water. No more plunger for me after that nightmare. It's truly a horror movie for me.

[Patty313]

I saw letters that is addressed to a limited company named after our street address name. And my upstairs neighbour manages that company..

In that case you can go onto the Companies House website, type in the search bar the name you believe it has and see if you are returned the name of the limited Co. If so it will have details of the Director's names. If your neighbour is a Director of the Company which owns the freehold they will be responsible for complying with the Landlord obligations in your lease, one of which will very likely to be to keep the shared drains free flowing.

Be wary of trying to clear blockages yourself using aggressive products. You may cause additional problems. The description of your sink overflowing or constantly back surging resulting in it having to be ladelled out suggests it is the shared stack which is blocked, below your flat, such that the stack has filled up to a level higher than the level of your sink.
It is really unlikely that you will be able to treat such a blockage with off the shelf products which are intended for U bend blockages not soil stack blockages which generally need to be professionally jetted.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your point of view. I actually thought that solution in general is not good for plastic pipes, esp. for the pipe long term and the builder said I may need to use that every so often. I'm surprised that they charged us thousands and showed up with that.

I followed your advice and went to the Companies House. I can see both owners were listed there, but I'm not. I'm the 3rd owner of the building. This is odd.

>> one of which will very likely be to keep the shared drains free flowing.
you meant I can ask her (I believe it's upstairs as I've asked downstairs and he said he can't find it) to find out a plan that illustrates our pipe layout?

I'm going through the paperwork that my conveyancer provided, I found a Drainage & Water Search.pdf but unfortunately, it doesn't have any map or wording to describe the building's waste pipes

thanks again for sharing your views.

[Patty313]

Citizens Advice Bureau and check your household insurances for a legal helpline - and if the flat comes under a general all building policy ask for legal helpline details off the freeholder who presumably holds that buildings insurance

I agree that this is as much a legal issue as a technical one. You could start by looking at the wording of your lease to establish what it says about responsibility for shared drainage pipes or get someone with a legal understanding to do so for you.

Also be clear on the technical terms. Waste pipes are the small diameter pipes routed from each bath, basin, sink etc. These will likely be the responsibility for keeping free flowing of the flat in which they are located. These waste pipes each connect into a single larger diameter (4") vertical pipe known as a soil stack which will in turn connect into a below ground branch drain. Because the soil stack and branch drain collects drainage from all of the flats waste pipes it will be a shared responsibility to keep that free flowing as will the below ground branch drain which the soil stack discharges in to.

Thanks Dicky99
>>These waste pipes each connect into a single larger diameter (4") vertical pipe known as a soil stack which will in turn connect into a below ground branch drain. Because the soil stack and branch drain collects drainage from all of the flats waste pipes it will be a shared responsibility to keep that free flowing as will the below ground branch drain which the soil stack discharges in to.

Appreciated for stressing the importance of the the different pipes. So when I studied the manhole with the builder, each unit has its own hole. I cannot be certain if the washing machine water from upstairs also come out of the same hole as my washing machine. I did ask the builder to confirm but he hasn't replied. I think so though because the pipe goes back into my pipe, which implies they exit from the same hole. So that's why I'm interested in understanding if that's legal for upstairs to be using the pipe in my floor before I broach the subject to ask for splitting the pipes. Thanks again for taking your time to share your knowledge with me.