Pay for "trial shift" with employer?

[Gersemi]

I would say that if the shift is a trial shift, which is part of the selection process and will therefore be unpaid, that should be made clear to the applicant before they perform it. If they choose to continue on that basis then they have no cause for compliant. On the other hand if they are under the impression that they will be paid before they do it then that is not OK. Perhaps it wasn't mentioned and the applicant didn't ask; that is rather underhand.

[GoSeigen]

Perhaps it wasn't mentioned and the applicant didn't ask; that is rather underhand.

This is the case. She's still deciding what to do First job offer and only PT so easy for her to walk away IMO...

GS

[didds]

I would say that if the shift is a trial shift, which is part of the selection process and will therefore be unpaid, that should be made clear to the applicant before they perform it. If they choose to continue on that basis then they have no cause for compliant. On the other hand if they are under the impression that they will be paid before they do it then that is not OK. Perhaps it wasn't mentioned and the applicant didn't ask; that is rather underhand.

Albeit over three decades ago I did once get a reply to a job application for a position serving in a Sydney cafe to come in for an interview, which on arrival, dressed appropriately for an interview (very smart casual) , I was directed to the back kitchen and told to gut/ clean chickens for the cafe.

There was no hint at the invitation that Id be doing a trial shift, let alone one that might be better off being done in more appropriate clothing. Underhand doesn't even start to cover it.

So its really not as simple as "if they choose to continue". The job interview is already underway.

didds

PS. I cleaned three and said they must be able to see by now I know what Im doing. I was told they needed me to do four hours for a full check.
I told them to f4ck 0v.

[Lootman]

I did once get a reply to a job application for a position serving in a Sydney cafe to come in for an interview, which on arrival, dressed appropriately for an interview (very smart casual) , I was directed to the back kitchen and told to gut/ clean chickens for the cafe.

There was no hint at the invitation that Id be doing a trial shift, let alone one that might be better off being done in more appropriate clothing. Underhand doesn't even start to cover it.

So its really not as simple as "if they choose to continue". The job interview is already underway.

Regarding a trial shift as part of a job interview doesn't seem unreasonable. And an apron could always be given for messy work. If I want to know how you'd perform in a job I could chat to you about it, as in a normal interview, and hope to determine your suitability. Or I can watch you for an hour or two actually doing the job.

In fact many careers require unpaid training and assessment. So for example if you have spent 5 years training to be a lawyer or accountant, with regular exams, why would you quibble about an extra hour or two to pass another test?

If you think of the trial shift as just another exam, then the idea of being paid for it goes away.

[didds]

And an apron could always be given for messy work.

It could be. It wasn't. I asked. None available.

[didds]

If you think of the trial shift as just another exam, then the idea of being paid for it goes away.

I remain unconvinced that four unpaid hours cleaning chickens proves worth any better than three chickens in 10 minutes.

[Lootman]

If you think of the trial shift as just another exam, then the idea of being paid for it goes away.

I remain unconvinced that four unpaid hours cleaning chickens proves worth any better than three chickens in 10 minutes.

It shows stamina. Anyone can work hard for 10 minutes.

It also shows that you can tolerate mind-numbing boredom for hours, and that you don't mind getting giblets all over you.

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
We're getting a bit adrift from the Legal Issues aspect here. Please stick to the on-topic discussion which is around the legality of this practice. Thanks (chas49)

[didds]

I remain unconvinced that four unpaid hours cleaning chickens proves worth any better than three chickens in 10 minutes.

It shows stamina. Anyone can work hard for 10 minutes.

It also shows that you can tolerate mind-numbing boredom for hours, and that you don't mind getting giblets all over you.

Part of the 5 minute spoken interview was that I played rugby, which is why i was in Sydney in the first place.

Stamina?

[GoSeigen]

It shows stamina. Anyone can work hard for 10 minutes.

It also shows that you can tolerate mind-numbing boredom for hours, and that you don't mind getting giblets all over you.

Part of the 5 minute spoken interview was that I played rugby, which is why i was in Sydney in the first place.

Stamina?

Ugh, Wallaby giblets all over you in the scrum, sounds horrendous.


The Aussies have long been a bunch of chickens haven't they?

Hope you managed to clean them up properly!

GS

[GoSeigen]

It shows stamina. Anyone can work hard for 10 minutes.

It also shows that you can tolerate mind-numbing boredom for hours, and that you don't mind getting giblets all over you.

Part of the 5 minute spoken interview was that I played rugby, which is why i was in Sydney in the first place.

Stamina?

Ugh, Wallaby giblets all over you in the scrum, sounds horrendous.


The Aussies have long been a bunch of chickens haven't they?

Hope you managed to clean them up properly!

GS
P.S. Did you roast the wings too?

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
We're getting a bit adrift from the Legal Issues aspect here. Please stick to the on-topic discussion which is around the legality of this practice. Thanks (chas49)

Moderator Message:
Please note my previous gentle warning. The giblets discussion is definitely off-topic here. (chas49)

[IrishIceHawk]

DD applied for a hospitality position and was asked to come in for a four-hour trial shift where she was basically doing the same work as other staff and the sort of work she'd do once employed. To her and my surprise she was not paid for this work, presumably none of the people used by this business in their "trial shifts" are paid. Is that even legal? I thought in UK law that if it looked, walked and smelled like employment then it was considered to be employment.

From the legal aspect, I would defer to the "unpaid work trial periods" section of minimum wage guidance at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/calculating-the-minimum-wage/eligibility-for-the-minimum-wage

I read it the same way as you mention it, if it walks/quacks like a duck it's a duck - a four hour shift where the potential employer gets benefit from the work done would seem to be payable, as to me, that would exceed the amount of time needed to check if they can do the job, and it was real work, not test environment. Also the mention of many people doing trial shifts would tend to suggest that it's not really a recruitment tool - you don't try on 100s of pairs of shoes before buying one, and using trials like that more sounds like ways of getting free labour.

Whether it would be worth applying for payment for the 4 hours, or if refused reporting the employer for not paying minimum way, is another type of decision though.

[Lootman]

if it walks/quacks like a duck it's a duck - a four hour shift where the potential employer gets benefit from the work done would seem to be payable, as to me, that would exceed the amount of time needed to check if they can do the job, and it was real work, not test environment. .

A totally untrained person needing constant supervision and oversight cannot possibly be profitable for an employer. So this is a loss-making enterprise on the part of the employer. And throw in there the liability issues as well.

The longest (unpaid) interview I ever did was 48 hours. Compared to that a 4-hour practical test is nothing.

[GoSeigen]

DD applied for a hospitality position and was asked to come in for a four-hour trial shift where she was basically doing the same work as other staff and the sort of work she'd do once employed. To her and my surprise she was not paid for this work, presumably none of the people used by this business in their "trial shifts" are paid. Is that even legal? I thought in UK law that if it looked, walked and smelled like employment then it was considered to be employment.

From the legal aspect, I would defer to the "unpaid work trial periods" section of minimum wage guidance at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/calculating-the-minimum-wage/eligibility-for-the-minimum-wage

I read it the same way as you mention it, if it walks/quacks like a duck it's a duck - a four hour shift where the potential employer gets benefit from the work done would seem to be payable, as to me, that would exceed the amount of time needed to check if they can do the job, and it was real work, not test environment. Also the mention of many people doing trial shifts would tend to suggest that it's not really a recruitment tool - you don't try on 100s of pairs of shoes before buying one, and using trials like that more sounds like ways of getting free labour.

Whether it would be worth applying for payment for the 4 hours, or if refused reporting the employer for not paying minimum way, is another type of decision though.

Thank you, that is is exactly pertinent to the OP. If you're an AI, well done good job. If you're a human welcome the Lemon Fool and thank again for the help.

GS

[chas49]

Thank you, that is is exactly pertinent to the OP. If you're an AI, well done good job. If you're a human welcome the Lemon Fool and thank again for the help.

GS

A bit off-topic I know, but the poster joined in 2016, so they're unlikely to be an AI.

[kempiejon]

the unpaid shift was a red flag in my estimation.

So without proper employment checks and the necessary training not only is it a bit of a mugging to make candidates work free but probably some breaches of good practice, employment law, H&S and food handling practices. Circling back to the original comments I think that red flag looked a good thought. Did the progeny make a decision?



Is it an insult to suggest someone is non human or praise?

[tjh290633]

Thank you, that is is exactly pertinent to the OP. If you're an AI, well done good job. If you're a human welcome the Lemon Fool and thank again for the help.

GS

A bit off-topic I know, but the poster joined in 2016, so they're unlikely to be an AI.

Most, if not all, possible AI posts never quote from another post, so a post that does is unlikely to be AI.

TJH

[GoSeigen]

I was kind of wishing that AI could be so helpful and to the point. In reality it seems to fall far short.

GS

[gryffron]

Volunteers don't have to be paid. No matter what work they are doing. You can choose to work for free, or minimum wage+. Anything in between those figures would be a definite breach of the rules. But "volunteer" work for free is fine.

IMO: Describing it as a "trial shift" implies (to me at least) it is under the same Ts+Cs that the job will have. Did the employer actually use those words? Or was the word "voluntary" in there?

If you don't like it, tell them they failed the trial by not paying you.

Gryff