Struggling pubs

[bungeejumper]

And so to the Duck and Bucket, for my bi-monthly catch-up with my old mate Tom. A thriving food pub, next to the village cricket pitch, that was always packed on a weekday evening. But on this Tuesday evening the car park was near-empty and there were fewer than a dozen people in the whole place. By nine thirty we were the only remaining customers, and they started turning the side room lights out, ready for closing time at ten. We took the hint.

Of course, the echoing emptiness of the place might have been due to the new landlady and the £4.75 price on a pint of Wadworths. Well below London prices, I know, but a sock in the wallet for us benighted wurzels, and the usual loud village crowd in the snug were gone. It was all very sad.

The landlady, as it happened, was very pleasant and was happy to talk about how the economic squeeze was affecting the rural leisure scene. Her predecessors had gone out of business despite their thriving evening food trade, and she'd taken on the tenancy to see what could be done. And five months on, the answer seemed to be not much.

The usual suspects, of course - cheap supermarket booze and Netflix at home, tighter drink driving laws, and even the smoking ban. But beyond that, she said, people were simply not going out so much because of the cost. Faced with the pressure to meet the rent, she'd had to increase the prices, and the rest had been a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Two other decent country pubs on the same stretch of road have already closed, although one was redeveloped for housing and the other had inadequate parking, so it was always going to struggle. My neighbour who's a CAMRA organiser says it's happening everywhere. Structurally, the country is over-supplied with pubs in relation to its needs. Something ancient and traditional is passing.

BJ

[AF62]

Faced with the pressure to meet the rent, she'd had to increase the prices, and the rest had been a self-fulfilling prophesy.

That's the issue for individual pubs - If trade declines then it is a death spiral it is almost impossible to get out of.

Even the traditional managed houses are struggling, with two in my town that have been empty for months as nobody wants to take them on and a third where they have applied to convert it to residential.

Meanwhile Wetherspoons continues to be successful with the 'pile it high and sell it cheap' approach, and the new chain entrant Loungers is being successful with the 'its not a pub' female friendly approach.

[Pendrainllwyn]

The Duck and Bucket raising prices doesn’t seem to be the right strategy as Wetherspoons’ experience suggests. Maybe lower prices, cheaper more affordable food, more customers, more atmosphere might work better. The rural pub I go to when I am in the UK is always busy. Great food, local beer, friendly staff. But then there aren’t that many pubs to choose from around there.

Pendrainllwyn

[DrFfybes]

Pre Covid when we were househunting in the area we stayed (once!) at the Riverside Inn near Cressage.

Big rooms, very shabby, smelt of diesel, 3 locals in when we arrived, who got lathered then drove home. In the morning there were 4 of us for brekky.

During Covid, like a lot of the pubs on the Shrewsbury - Kidderminster - M5 road it was closed, then boarded up, and looked like it had gone forever. Not surprise, it really was dead by 2019.

Then builders arrived, it has reopened https://www.chefandbrewer.com/pubs/shro ... inn/hotel/ and we went down last thurs for lunch and the car park was full and there was a 40 min wait for a table. Rooms are no £110 rather than the £80 previously, but it appears to be thriving.

My cousin has 2 pubs, one in a village, one a bit more rural. They are basically restaurants that do food. It is a Marstons franchise and they were great during Covid, paying for outside space improvements and a pizza oven and marquee type thing that he now uses for weddings. He now turns over circa £1m pa at the village one.

Our village local is a 1980 Sky TV haven,full of local Tradesmen. New tenants in 2020 have revived it into somewhere peolpe actually want to go, better food, Sunday lunches. OTOH the one over the fields was excellent, 3rd generation of the same family, and is struggling. Only open 4 days and Sunday lunch, reduced their covers. We went in and basically he can't get staff, so shorter and irregular opening hours, so people stop booking, a vicious circle.

There seems to be no pattern, except that getting a decent Chef in seems to be make or break.

Paul

[Dod101]

Pre Covid when we were househunting in the area we stayed (once!) at the Riverside Inn near Cressage.

Big rooms, very shabby, smelt of diesel, 3 locals in when we arrived, who got lathered then drove home. In the morning there were 4 of us for brekky.

During Covid, like a lot of the pubs on the Shrewsbury - Kidderminster - M5 road it was closed, then boarded up, and looked like it had gone forever. Not surprise, it really was dead by 2019.

Then builders arrived, it has reopened https://www.chefandbrewer.com/pubs/shro ... inn/hotel/ and we went down last thurs for lunch and the car park was full and there was a 40 min wait for a table. Rooms are no £110 rather than the £80 previously, but it appears to be thriving.

My cousin has 2 pubs, one in a village, one a bit more rural. They are basically restaurants that do food. It is a Marstons franchise and they were great during Covid, paying for outside space improvements and a pizza oven and marquee type thing that he now uses for weddings. He now turns over circa £1m pa at the village one.

Our village local is a 1980 Sky TV haven,full of local Tradesmen. New tenants in 2020 have revived it into somewhere peolpe actually want to go, better food, Sunday lunches. OTOH the one over the fields was excellent, 3rd generation of the same family, and is struggling. Only open 4 days and Sunday lunch, reduced their covers. We went in and basically he can't get staff, so shorter and irregular opening hours, so people stop booking, a vicious circle.

There seems to be no pattern, except that getting a decent Chef in seems to be make or break.

Paul

I don't suppose that you meant to say that but I see that your cousin runs 'basically restaurants that do food' How very quaint.

Dod

[Mike4]

Pre Covid when we were househunting in the area we stayed (once!) at the Riverside Inn near Cressage.

Big rooms, very shabby, smelt of diesel, 3 locals in when we arrived, who got lathered then drove home. In the morning there were 4 of us for brekky.

During Covid, like a lot of the pubs on the Shrewsbury - Kidderminster - M5 road it was closed, then boarded up, and looked like it had gone forever. Not surprise, it really was dead by 2019.

Then builders arrived, it has reopened https://www.chefandbrewer.com/pubs/shro ... inn/hotel/ and we went down last thurs for lunch and the car park was full and there was a 40 min wait for a table. Rooms are no £110 rather than the £80 previously, but it appears to be thriving.

My cousin has 2 pubs, one in a village, one a bit more rural. They are basically restaurants that do food. It is a Marstons franchise and they were great during Covid, paying for outside space improvements and a pizza oven and marquee type thing that he now uses for weddings. He now turns over circa £1m pa at the village one.

Our village local is a 1980 Sky TV haven,full of local Tradesmen. New tenants in 2020 have revived it into somewhere peolpe actually want to go, better food, Sunday lunches. OTOH the one over the fields was excellent, 3rd generation of the same family, and is struggling. Only open 4 days and Sunday lunch, reduced their covers. We went in and basically he can't get staff, so shorter and irregular opening hours, so people stop booking, a vicious circle.

There seems to be no pattern, except that getting a decent Chef in seems to be make or break.

Paul

I don't suppose that you meant to say that but I see that your cousin runs 'basically restaurants that do food' How very quaint.

Dod

Indeed it's all a bit odd. The amusing sign behind the bar in many pubs back in the 70s springs to mind:

"PLEASE NOTE: We have an arrangement with the local bank. They don't sell beer, we don't cash cheques."

Pubs that sell food are not doing either thing well, I don't find. Their food isn't as good as a restaurant and the beer isn't as good as a pub.

These high street 'brewery tap' type places seem to be doing well. Previously high street shops, and now they sell only beer. No food other than peanuts and crisps, no wine or anything else poncy like that, just good beer. Really good beer. I drove past the one in Pewsey high street last year and it was rammed, with drinkers out on the street as it was so full.

I feel sure this is were pubs have gone wrong, trying to be all things to all people and doing none of it all that well.

[Dicky99]

I remember years ago going into a convivial drinkers pub in Yorkshire a week before Christmas. It was a cold damp day, the open fire on the go and the pub's food offering was nothing other than a large vat of mushy peas and meat pies, possibly a veggie option too though I don't recall.
It put me in mind of bar/cafes I've seen in Spain selling their particular speciality cheaply by the bowl with a chunk of bread. Keep it very simple but do it really well kind of fayre.
Seems to me that notion of a large vat of daily special, when it's gone it's gone grub, would be ideally suited to an independent pub that may find it difficult to employ a chef and offer a full and varied menu every day.
In fact if any pub wished to offer my Chilli Sin Carne or roasted Cauliflower curry I'd happily offer my consultancy services

[bungeejumper]

Pubs that sell food are not doing either thing well, I don't find. Their food isn't as good as a restaurant and the beer isn't as good as a pub.

Horses for courses, though. You've reminded me of the pub we visited in Wharfedale a few years back. It was in fairly tough hill walking territory, with back packers in muddy boots always passing through in pursuit of their next calorie-load. These people wanted pies, chips, burgers, whatever it would take to get them over the tops to Kettlewell.

And what had the pub done? Installed a ponced-up, high-end, pseudo-Michelin star kitchen at £40 a plate, and that was just for the bar menu. And a sign on the wall asking the patrons to please not ask for chips.

Strangely, the place was deserted. I can't imagine why. And as a result, the beer was off. They probably sold a gallon a week.

Our own village pub here in West Wilts is doing well, mostly because it does live music, with bands a couple of times a week. And not a lobster to be seen on the menu.

BJ

[DrFfybes]

I don't suppose that you meant to say that but I see that your cousin runs 'basically restaurants that do food' How very quaint.

Dod

Yeah - should have been "Restaurants that sell beer".

Paul

[bungeejumper]

I see that your cousin runs 'basically restaurants that do food' How very quaint.

Yeah - should have been "Restaurants that sell beer".

But, but, but......... Surely, beer IS food?




BJ

[CliffEdge]

Three years ago we used to go to the White Donkey for Pensioner's Special, cod, chips, mushy peas, slice of bread and butter, and a cup of tea. £6.35 each. £12.70 for the two of us.

An expensive treat admittedly but at our age the odd treat seemed forgiveable. We'd probably go once a fortnight or so.

Now the price is £9.25. knocking 20 quid for the two of us.

Last week we went for the first time this year.

[Lootman]

Three years ago we used to go to the White Donkey for Pensioner's Special, cod, chips, mushy peas, slice of bread and butter, and a cup of tea. £6.35 each. £12.70 for the two of us.

An expensive treat admittedly but at our age the odd treat seemed forgiveable. We'd probably go once a fortnight or so.

Now the price is £9.25. knocking 20 quid for the two of us.

Last week we went for the first time this year.

Spoons do a "fish supper" deal in the afternoon for about what you used to pay.

And with a proper drink as well.

[stewamax]

You've reminded me of the pub we visited in Wharfedale a few years back. It was in fairly tough hill walking territory, with back packers in muddy boots always passing through in pursuit of their next calorie-load. These people wanted pies, chips, burgers, whatever it would take to get them over the tops to Kettlewell. And what had the pub done? Installed a ponced-up, high-end, pseudo-Michelin star kitchen at £40 a plate, and that was just for the bar menu. And a sign on the wall asking the patrons to please not ask for chips.Our own village pub here in West Wilts is doing well, mostly because it does live music, with bands a couple of times a week. And not a lobster to be seen on the menu.

My daughter also lives in West Wilts, not far from Bath. A few years ago, their country local was given a make-over - design and food - by Marco Pierre White. The £outcome was presumably a mite disappointing to Mr White because not long afterwards it was un-tarted-up again and reverted to its old atmosphere and good un-poncy food. In that area at least, you need to be either a one-Michelin-star standard 'destination' restaurant or something locals like: there is no half-way house.

[scrumpyjack]

In retrospect, I was incredibly lucky that my v. large holding in Greene King was taken over in 2019. Phew!
Outweighs the disasters !

I don't think pubs are a good sector to be in. Large overheads and a huge uphill struggle, unless it's a niche upmarket London business like Youngs and Fullers.

[bluedonkey]

Yes, and Fullers do a lot of food I think. As an aside, I used to go along with the conventional wisdom that London Pride was a good tasting beer but I don't anymore, the bitter market has moved on massively and their real ale hasn't.

[bungeejumper]

My daughter also lives in West Wilts, not far from Bath. A few years ago, their country local was given a make-over - design and food - by Marco Pierre White. The £outcome was presumably a mite disappointing to Mr White because not long afterwards it was un-tarted-up again and reverted to its old atmosphere and good un-poncy food. In that area at least, you need to be either a one-Michelin-star standard 'destination' restaurant or something locals like: there is no half-way house.

Haha, I know that pub, the Pear Tree at Whitley. There was a bit more to it than that, some of which would get me into a libel action. But Marco has a way of annoying people, and he was on top form. The entire village boycotted his boozer because he was so insufferable. Marco couldn't keep staff for more than a few weeks at a time, and that was why he eventually shut its doors (without notice) and quit. A quick google will give you the whole story, which is really quite entertaining. He moved a few miles down the road to Rudloe, where this happened: https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news ... ly%20fight. Nobody was the least bit surprised.

BJ

[bungeejumper]

Haha, I know that pub, the Pear Tree at Whitley. There was a bit more to it than that, some of which would get me into a libel action. But Marco has a way of annoying people, and he was on top form.

Here's what the Daily Mail said. Enjoy:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... style.html
As for the other reasons, you'll have to use your imagination.

BJ

[DrFfybes]

My daughter also lives in West Wilts,
[...]
there is no half-way house.

Oh yes there is
https://www.halfwayhousesalisbury.co.uk/Home/Index/

[Rhyd6]

There is a pub not too far away from us near Loggerheads, Mold. When you go inside you step back to the 1950s. Small rooms, plain seating chairs and benches. No carpets, closed Mon & Tues nights, closes at 10.00pm on Weds< Thursday but open until 10.30 Sat & Sun. No food other than crisps. It's usually packed out, it's a proper farmers pub, tractors, 4 by 4s etc. in the car park alongside posh SUVs. Great beer and in a nod to changing tastes a pop up food tent once a month. Great - and of course dogs are most welcome.

R6

[Mike4]

There is a pub not too far away from us near Loggerheads, Mold. When you go inside you step back to the 1950s. Small rooms, plain seating chairs and benches. No carpets, closed Mon & Tues nights, closes at 10.00pm on Weds< Thursday but open until 10.30 Sat & Sun. No food other than crisps. It's usually packed out, it's a proper farmers pub, tractors, 4 by 4s etc. in the car park alongside posh SUVs. Great beer and in a nod to changing tastes a pop up food tent once a month. Great - and of course dogs are most welcome.

R6

Ah yes, there is also The Anchor at High Offley. Maybe this is the same place, right on the Shropshire Union canal. Sells Wadworth 6X out of a jug, or did until the landlady (Olive) died. If you wanted something else, there are other pubs you can go to, was their attitude!

Similarly, usually packed out.