Anyone for Italian Beer?

[redsturgeon]

Just posted this review on Trip Advisor of the Italian Job Craft Beer pub in Chiswick.

Although the front door was not quite closing properly, our waitress was super attentive in pushing it to every time someone walked in or out.

This was a lunchtime visit to make up for the fact they were closed the last time we tried them even though we had booked a table! To compensate for their mistake they promised free food for us and were good to their word. The food was excellent, freshly prepared and well presented. We had an excellent burger and a mixed meat platter. Delicious.

What about the beer though? Wot no Peroni or Moretti?? Indeed not but the 50 or so other Italian craft beers more than made up for that!

We started with a a delicious Saison "New Morn", a light refreshing number that I would highly recommend. We then worked our way through, Freeride, Sally B, Californian Sun, Viaemi ,AFO, Dom and Winterlude on tap before leaping in the deeper waters of their bottled selection.

We tried the Chimera and the Clan Stout before finishing with a couple of Barley wines,
Prima Luna which was excellent and Ultima Luna an amazing 13% aged in Amarone barrels and truly delicious.

We left warmed and slightly tipsy after a pleasant four hours.

Great service, amazing beer selection and great food, this place deserves to do well and I believe they have another place at the Elephant and Castle with another coming in Notting Hill in the New Year.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserR ... land.html#

We are gluttons for punishment and went on from there to the Lowlander in Drury Lane to sample an excellent Troubador Magma, Rochefort 10, Karmeliet Trippel and Duvel Trippel. I'm not quite sure what happened after that but some hours later I found myself at home in the spare bed!

John

[UncleEbenezer]

For what it's worth, when I lived in central Italy, I found myself actually losing the taste for English beer, and preferring the light Italian lagers. By the end of my time there, I probably got through more Moretti than any other brew! Then I returned to Blighty, and my taste for good English beer came back.

Make of that what you will. It's not just the climate, 'cos I didn't crave English beer even in winter, and my favourite hot-weather beer remained German-style Weizenbier - which I still love any time we get a hot spell in the English summer. Probably something holistic, encompassing environment, diet, et al.

[DiamondEcho]

Depends, colder climate favours heavier beers, wines and so on. The idea of sitting in the tropics drinking 'heavy' beer doesn't work.

'Meanwhile in Italy' - Here is the top picks for IT according to Beeradvocate -> https://www.beeradvocate.com/lists/it/ [Surprised to see that it's not until number 20 that you find a beer that's under 5%!]

[Hallucigenia]

@UE You're probably just ahead of the trend in getting into Moretti, I'd guess it must be the fastest-growing premium lager right now. But I imagine proximity helps - so much of British beer culture is tied up with cask, and it just doesn't really travel. So your preference is more for "beer" rather than a specific beer, but what that beer turns out to be depends on what is in front of you.

@RS Funnily enough I'd seen your review on TA - it's great that Italian beer culture has a beachhead in the UK, the scene there has really exploded in recent years, it's been growing at a similar rate to here but from a much lower base. And obviously they don't have so much beer culture to fall back on, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, it encourages experimentation like dry-hopped lagers (Tipopils et al) as well as an awful lot of "me-too" clones of US beers. It'll be fascinating to see how things develop there.

[redsturgeon]

And obviously they don't have so much beer culture to fall back on, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, it encourages experimentation like dry-hopped lagers (Tipopils et al) as well as an awful lot of "me-too" clones of US beers. It'll be fascinating to see how things develop there.

Yes when they fall back on the US beer clones they are a disappointment, other than that there are some great beers out there and I'd recommend the Italian Job as a good place to try some.

John

[stewamax]

The idea of sitting in the tropics drinking 'heavy' beer doesn't work.

Intriguingly, Nigeria is the largest market for Guinness - especially for their stronger (over 7% ABV) Foreign Extra. For me, the latter goes well with heavy strong cheeses such as Stilton.

[DiamondEcho]

The idea of sitting in the tropics drinking 'heavy' beer doesn't work.

Intriguingly, Nigeria is the largest market for Guinness - especially for their stronger (over 7% ABV) Foreign Extra. For me, the latter goes well with heavy strong cheeses such as Stilton.

That's a good point, and it's counter-intuitive [to me] but there is also a Guinness that is brewed under license in Malaysia, and sold in Malaysia/Thailand/Singapore. But I've never been a fan of stout and can't imagine who drinks it in that climate, where light and low-hop* beers prevail.

Re: Nigerian Guinness. I have heard of that too. In fact when I lived in Notting Hill, one of the local offies back in the early 90s, down near Westbourne Park Road/Portobello used to stock it, and I recall my surprise at seeing it there in strikingly big bottles. For context that was still a down-at-heel and at times dangerous area back then.

Back then as I recall the Nigerian version had a very trad/old-school lable on the bottle, coloured a pale orange. That seems to have been updated. It scores very well on Beeradvocate, 83%, https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/10544/23134/
There are multiple foreign-brewed versions, St Lucia, Malaysia, Jamaica, Bahamas, Ghana etc etc... https://www.beeradvocate.com/search/?st ... ss&qt=beer

- Peroni gets 65% on the same website. 'Nuff said IMO. https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/258/1790/




*Low-hop as SE Asians have the Pacific-Rim 'bitter-gene', a genetic predisposition to finding bitterness and hence hoppiness positively repellent.

[BrummieDave]

For any fans of Italian Craft Beer who find themselves in Berlin, there's a very good relatively new Italian Craft Beer Bar in Prenzlauer Berg just by the Prenzlauer Allee/Danziger Strasse tram stop. The Italian owners face considerable pressure from the major German brewers (as do all craft brewers in Germany) as the majors attempt to impose the Reinheitsgebot purity law to their own advantage.

All that aside, the bar is a fantastic place to spend an evening, very welcoming, very 'Berlin' in ethos (Berlin being very unGerman), and with a fantastic range of beers. It's outside of the normal tourist areas of course, but worth the tram ride if you're ever there (or live there).

[DiamondEcho]

Prenzlauer Berg is one of the historic hubs of the Berlin gay scene, maybe why Italian beer is popular there

More seriously, it's surprising to hear Italian beer is served in Berlin at all, as they are hugely parochial re: beer IME. And no wonder, as there is so much world-class beer there, and it's cheap as chips.

I maintain that Berlin is one of the few EU epicentres you can visit as a tourist, and get to sample from an endless array of cheap, world-class beers. If you're a hop-head, that alone really is reason to visit. I haven't been to Prague, love Czech beer, but doubt it has the range of choice and F+B offering of Berlin.

[BrummieDave]

Concur with all you say DE and I'm very aware of the history of that suburb (not sure I get the implied joke about the gay scene and Italian beer though or are we back in the early 70s?).

There's an American chap, Cliff, who does a half decent evening walking tour if you are of the craft beer inclination http://www.berlincraftbeerexperience.com/

In many ways, the craft beer scene has a strong parallel with the ethos of Berlin as a whole, of being the bohemian, counter-culture, residing place, post war turkish immigration, cheap accommodation, laissez faire co-operatives etc. In that regard, I think craft beer and its struggles with the major German breweries and Berlin go hand in hand.

I've drank lots of beer in Prague too; perhaps an aged homophobic joke about going for a Czech up will follow?

[DiamondEcho]

Not back in the 70s, just a play on the cliched stereotype that UK ale and Bavarian beer are masculine preserves.
Interesting link re: that walking tour, nothing like that existed when we lived there c5/+ years ago.
Agreed that if there is going to be a craft scene in Germany then Berlin makes sense, it's perhaps the most bohemian part of Germany. And the Bavarian brewers are established/dominant it needs some rebel spirit to even think of competing.
I think there is a geographic correlation in beer. The hotter the climate, generally the lighter the beer. So I see why light beer works better in Italy than to it's north. Also they seem to have much less of culture of wishing to feel the effects of alcohol, never mind get inebriated or drunk. At least IME. Alcohol tends to be enjoyed with food, rather than 'to have a session'.

[And no, if anyone is wondering, I'm not in the slightest homophobic. Live and let live etc.]

[BrummieDave]

So you lived in Berlin DE, how fascinating that must have been.

Keeping it on topic (almost) I bet you drank, or at least tried, Berliner Weisse beer? I love my beers, including German wheat beers, but not BW at all.

For anyone not familiar with Berliner Weisse it's a weak, very sour, drink, that often tastes more like vinegar than beer. Don't confuse it with German Weisse beers such as the ubiquitous Franziskaner Weissbier, as it is nothing like that at all. Try it, only once probably, and see for yourself!

[DiamondEcho]

So you lived in Berlin DE, how fascinating that must have been.
Keeping it on topic (almost) I bet you drank, or at least tried, Berliner Weisse beer? I love my beers, including German wheat beers, but not BW at all.
For anyone not familiar with Berliner Weisse it's a weak, very sour, drink, that often tastes more like vinegar than beer. Don't confuse it with German Weisse beers such as the ubiquitous Franziskaner Weissbier, as it is nothing like that at all. Try it, only once probably, and see for yourself!

Spent 3 years there, c2008-11. It was interesting as I'd only visited once before which as it turned out was the landmark New Years Eve 1989, sitting on the Berlin Wall at Brandenburg Gate until about 3am.
So it was fascinating, esp. against the background of most of my older relatives directly or indirectly having fought against the Germans. Still a bit taboo in their eyes. I'd previously lived in Japan, and my parents couldn't 'cross the bridge', forgive in a way, the JPnese war-time brutality to visit me there. They did when we were in Berlin, I still think that was quite bold of them considering their direct exposure/involvement in WW2.
It was fascinating to see how Germany interprets it's initiation, and involvement in that war. There are a huge amounts of public memorials, and yet it is still a highly taboo subject that you simply don't discuss. One wonders if or when they ever might accept what they did.

Back on-topic. Yes, I enjoyed drinking beer by the dock-full in Berlin A short while after moving there I realised we had a great beer/drinks shop 5 minutes stroll away [IIRC>Getranke Hoffmann @ Wittenburgplatz]. An Aladdin's Cave of new finds. Used to go and buy 7 new beers to me, plus some known good brews, per week. That went on for months. Then I went deeper into the shop and found the back area and at least 100 more beers I'd not even noticed [or heard of]. 90% of those were no more than say euro1.20/500ml bottle - max. Beervana
Maybe that's why the craft scene spikes my interest, they already have such a huge range of beers available... So yes I certainly had Berliner Weisse, Berliner Kindl, and so on. But they did nothing much for me at all; I prefer something with a bit of character vs the German [almost] equiv. of Bud.
For a big/main brewer I preferred Paulaner's offerings. Something like Paulaner's Salvator is epic: https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/124/387/
But there is only so much of such heavier beer you can drink. For more of a session-beer my fav was Augustiner Brau Lagerbier Hell[es]
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/820/2560/ 92%/100 on Beeradvocate, 'World Class', to be had in the shops for circa e1.20/500ml in the shops. Stunning brew
Franziskaner Weissbier is another great beer [90%@BA], as are other brews of theirs https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/142/1946/
I'll happily toast you with one of those!

[BrummieDave]

By coincidence, I'm a big fan of Augustiner Brau having been introduced to it on my only visit to the Munich Beer Festival with their Oktoberfest Beer still being my favourite.

If you like tracking beer and seeing what others think, especially including some of the newer international craft brewers, have you tried Ratebeer.com? I use it a lot. If you haven't used it, try it, it's great, especially the overall score for each beer (use it as a guide to quality - it is rarely wrong IMHO).

And at the risk of going off (Italian) topic, I'm currently very happy to be drinking Beavertown from London (esp Gamma Ray and Lupuloid, Neck Oil on a weekday), Northern Monk from Leeds (several of the PAs but their 'Heathen' Pale Ale was fantastic), and from America, Firestone Walker (Union Jack and Pale 31). Although I didn't know until recently, Beavertown was founded and is still owned and run by Logan Plant (Robert Plant's son). As well as a brewery in Tottenham, they have one pub, Duke's Brew & Que, in Haggerston/De Beauvoir Town which does great food too (Barbecue etc.).

Lastly, when I walk in Austria every year close to the German border, Fransiskaner Weiss is my lunchtime treat. Happy days!

[Halicarnassus]

The idea of sitting in the tropics drinking 'heavy' beer doesn't work.

Intriguingly, Nigeria is the largest market for Guinness - especially for their stronger (over 7% ABV) Foreign Extra. For me, the latter goes well with heavy strong cheeses such as Stilton.

In Australia you can get the traditional 6.2% Guinness or the fizzy stuff at around 4%.

Although I still drink them, I'm increasingly becoming tired of the vast array of chemical fizz masquerading as beer: Fosters, XXXX, Tennents, Budweiser, Coors, Heineken etc

When I get home to Scotland I like to visit the Bon Accord pub in Glasgow's North St. Massive selection of whisky and real ale, with Paul the proprietor a dab hand at matching one with the other. (no connection other than being an occasional customer)

[DiamondEcho]

By coincidence, I'm a big fan of Augustiner Brau having been introduced to it on my only visit to the Munich Beer Festival with their Oktoberfest Beer still being my favourite.
If you like tracking beer and seeing what others think, especially including some of the newer international craft brewers, have you tried Ratebeer.com? I use it a lot. If you haven't used it, try it, it's great, especially the overall score for each beer (use it as a guide to quality - it is rarely wrong IMHO).
[Snip paragraph re: several beers I haven't had and can't access, so unfortunately can't comment]
Lastly, when I walk in Austria every year close to the German border, Fransiskaner Weiss is my lunchtime treat. Happy days!

Yes I like Augustiner too, many of their brews that I've tried have been really good, and their Oktoberfest one is great, in fact I found many Oktoberfest beers to be something special*. If you visit say Munich/Nuremburg you'll find the one I linked sold so widely it seems to be one of say 3-5 default choices, even in small places. By the time you're as far north as Berlin it's much less common IME.
I have looked at Ratebeer, years ago, and for some reason I settled for Beeradvocate. It could be because the latter have a wider international selection, or used to have. Having a quick look at at now, on a random choice of https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/paulaner-salvator/649/ it could have been because the reviews are not as rigorous as on BA, they often have no structure in the description [Smell>Looks>Taste>Mouthfeel>Overall], and too many [vs BA] are barely two lines long, some even 1/2-line long. In general I suppose I find the description more illustrative than how a person scores it.
Franziskaner is lovely, agreed! Schneider Weisse is another fine beer [I forget which works best for me, either their Tap5, 6, or 7]

I found this interesting. Ratebeers top-50 from Italy https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/country/italy/102/
... I haven't heard of a single one! I hadn't really considered Italy as a destination for beer, I should reconsider that, perhaps they're undergone some kind of craft revolution since I was last there in 1998.

*I'm reminded of the seasonal winter beers in Japan, IME head+shoulders above the usual offering at other times of year.

[swill453]

Lastly, when I walk in Austria every year close to the German border, Fransiskaner Weiss is my lunchtime treat. Happy days!

I noticed it's one of the standards in Tesco, I've never tried it so bought a couple for the weekend.

Scott.

[BrummieDave]

Well if you haven't had one before, you're in for a treat IMHO.

Make sure you get the best possible experience though. You have a choice: think of me as a patronising beer geek who's assuming you're a fool (as if), or someone who deeply cares that you enjoy your beer.

1. Store it upright in the fridge to keep the yeast at the bottom of the bottle.

2. As it's bottled conditioned, rather than avoid getting the yeast in your glass as you would with many British bottle conditioned ales, pour it like the Germans do, which gets all the lovely yeasty wheaty sediment into your drink, and forms a lovely frothy head. Pour quickly, into a well rinsed tall glass, tilted at 45 degrees or more, leave some beer in the bottom of the bottle, roll the bottle on the table or between your hands to agitate the sediment, then pour the yeasty frothy remaining beer vertically into the glass to form a lovely head. Alternatively, and you'll find lots of videos on You Tube for this method, you can go for the more 'show off' approach of the vertical single pour, keeping the neck of the bottle just below the level of the beer as you pour into the glass. I don't do that though.

But anyway, with a name like 'swill' you're probably more knowledgable about beer than me!

[UncleEbenezer]

Lastly, when I walk in Austria every year close to the German border, Fransiskaner Weiss is my lunchtime treat. Happy days!

I noticed it's one of the standards in Tesco, I've never tried it so bought a couple for the weekend.

Scott.

BrummieDave's instructions are quite similar to what I do with Weizenbier, including Franziskaner and similar brews.

What he failed to mention is that it's one of those drinks that really cares when and where you drink it. Truly fantastic on a hot summer day, much more ordinary in dull weather or in the current season, and quite undistinguished if consumed in the depths of winter.

Like many a Pinot Grigio in wine. Or like a watermelon.

[BrummieDave]

Ha Ha, or LOL as the youngsters say, you may well have a point Uncle.

And although I gave instruction on how to pour it, I rarely do so myself; as it is primarily a 'holiday drink' for me, I buy it in bars/mountain huts where it's poured for me by the server/waiter, or in the case of my favourite bar it's on draught so no bottles involved!

So you may well have a point; let's wait and see what our swilling friend reports back...