Should you get a smart meter?

[scrumpyjack]

Economy tariffs were brought in due to nuclear power, unlike coal and oil you cannot quickly shutdown nuclear plants overnight to match demand.

As the nuclear age ends and we have more wind and solar power, they need smart meters because it is much harder to predict production peaks for wind and solar power.

The part that is missing from this is smart appliances, ideally you would have an in-house battery which could charge up whenever rates are cheap.

EVs can generally have their charging remotely controlled and if you want to join Octopus's intelligent tariff, you must have an EV or charger type that they can remotely control (most do).

[Mike4]

The one big omission for me was that there was no mention that having a smart meter enabled the power co to just turn your supply off, totally, at the click of a mouse. Or maybe I was out of the room for that part ...

The power can be turned off from the outside in many homes anyway. But I agree that it should not be that easy for them.

in my case they would need access to the inside of my house, just like they do to read my meter, so I have control over that.

I have no interest in a smart meter.

What they actually appear to do with non-payers, as I've discovered in a handful of my rentals, is rather than disconnect them, they remotely switch the meter to pre-pay status. Same effect, but the user with no credit gets the option to buy some more electricity in their local Co-Op!

Possibly at a swingeing rate set to 'help' them pay off their account arrears.

[Mike4]

IN THE FUTURE overwhelming use of renewables will result in tariffs which are cheap on sunny, windy days, and expensive on dull, still days. Nearly everyone will be pushed onto such tariffs, and will need 30 minute readings from a smart meter to implement them. Those who don’t have a smart meter, will pay a MUCH higher price for anytime usage.

Gryff

Now this puzzles me. The link posted upthread reassures us that although data is captured every 30 mins, it is only uploaded to the supplier days in arrears and the claims of firms like ONZO are false. The leccy suppliers supposedly can't see our usage in real time.

But if that is true, how can the 'surge pricing' you describe ever happen?

[scrumpyjack]

Taking account of what we get from the FIT, Our overall electricity cost is substantially negative. OK there has been a large capital outlay but that is now a sunk cost. The benefits are effectively inflation proof and tax free.

Very cool! How much did your installation cost?

I'm trying to get an idea of what the capital costs are for a solar setup to cover the needs of a "typical" 4MWh/year house and am finding the estimates vary a lot. I need to go with ground too, as the roof is unsuitable.

It cost a lot and the economic case is marginal, but we often get power cuts here in deepest Herefordshire and as we are both rather old I was willing to pay an extra £2,000 for the auto backup switching system. Our original 4kw system cost £10,700 in 2011 and paid for itself in 6 years due to the FIT. A similar system is much cheaper now. Batteries are expensive. I think the Tesla Powerwall is over £10k and that has a much lower capacity than our system. I went for 2 x 9.7kwh Solaredge batteries for more resilience. Also we have 2 inverters and meters as we had to keep the old system separate so as to continue qualifying for the Feed in tariff. We also now have individual optimisers on each of the 35 solar panels.

If you are starting from scratch the costs of our system are not really relevant.

[UncleEbenezer]

IN THE FUTURE overwhelming use of renewables will result in tariffs which are cheap on sunny, windy days, and expensive on dull, still days. Nearly everyone will be pushed onto such tariffs, and will need 30 minute readings from a smart meter to implement them. Those who don’t have a smart meter, will pay a MUCH higher price for anytime usage.

Gryff

Now this puzzles me. The link posted upthread reassures us that although data is captured every 30 mins, it is only uploaded to the supplier days in arrears and the claims of firms like ONZO are false. The leccy suppliers supposedly can't see our usage in real time.

But if that is true, how can the 'surge pricing' you describe ever happen?

They can see grid usage in real time, and price dynamically based on generation and demand patterns. Smart devices will have the capacity to respond to dynamic pricing.

That's not at all the same as individual usage!

[mc2fool]

But there was a long section in the programme about a company called Onzo

You evidently didn't read the link I posted.

And that is how I know that companies like ONZO are full of [expletive deleted].

I did, but my reply was to the OP's apparent implication that the TV programme didn't present anything to counter the power co's claim that they had no idea how to analyse the data.

Onzo may not be able to break it down to the granularity claimed, but methinks it would be naive to believe that there can't be some analysis done to figure out quite a bit more that just simply what the leccy bill should be...

[DrFfybes]

Afaik the only real advantage NOW of having a smart meter is the lack of need to submit readings. Plus the gimmick of watching your money tick away.

IN THE FUTURE overwhelming use of renewables will result in tariffs which are cheap on sunny, windy days, and expensive on dull, still days. Nearly everyone will be pushed onto such tariffs, and will need 30 minute readings from a smart meter to implement them. Those who don’t have a smart meter, will pay a MUCH higher price for anytime usage.
Yes, I know a few people are doing this already, and such tariffs are already available, but it really is just a handful at the moment
Gryff

As you say, those tariffs are already available - either with cheaper off peak or dynamic pricing such as Agile Octopus where the pices are known 24 hours in advance.

I think you underestimate the popularity of those tariffs though, there are domestic battery systems and EV chargers that can be remotely controlled, and "smart" control of other devices becoming cheaper then their populatiry will increase, particularly with thoe who spend 80% of their time with their phone in their hand.

Personally I'm not that interested in the minutae, but I am on a variable tariff as I can charge the batteries up for half price overnight and use little in the peak hours, so it Just Works for us.

Paul

[gryffron]

IN THE FUTURE overwhelming use of renewables will result in tariffs which are cheap on sunny, windy days, and expensive on dull, still days. Nearly everyone will be pushed onto such tariffs, and will need 30 minute readings from a smart meter to implement them. Those who don’t have a smart meter, will pay a MUCH higher price for anytime usage.

Now this puzzles me. The link posted upthread reassures us that although data is captured every 30 mins, it is only uploaded to the supplier days in arrears and the claims of firms like ONZO are false. The leccy suppliers supposedly can't see our usage in real time.
But if that is true, how can the 'surge pricing' you describe ever happen?

It doesn't need a real time data connection to work. Real time monitoring can take place locally at your meter.

The smart meter can be sent prices a few days in advance. Not hard as we can accurately predict a few days weather, and when it gets dark. Or they could be on a website, app, texted to your phone...
The smart meter can record your usage in those 30min segments and upload it whenever, could be weeks later.

Gryff

[stockton]

What is an optimiser ?

[DrFfybes]

What is an optimiser ?

It is a bit of gubbins attached to a solar panel

I don't understand the technicalities, but basically AIUI....

Panels operate in 'strings' - a number of panels connected together into one input on the inverter. However this means they are capped at the output of the lowest producing panel. If your array is in partial shade then the ones in full sun get their output reduced. The Optimiser somehow decouples the panels so each one generates at their maximum rate according to the light they recieve.

This makes a big difference for someone like us, who have panels on East and West facing sides of the garage roof both on the same string.

Or that's roughly what the installer said when he charged us an extra £40odd per panel to fit them.

Paul

[stevensfo]

What is an optimiser ?

It is a bit of gubbins attached to a solar panel

I don't understand the technicalities, but basically AIUI....

Panels operate in 'strings' - a number of panels connected together into one input on the inverter. However this means they are capped at the output of the lowest producing panel. If your array is in partial shade then the ones in full sun get their output reduced. The Optimiser somehow decouples the panels so each one generates at their maximum rate according to the light they recieve.

This makes a big difference for someone like us, who have panels on East and West facing sides of the garage roof both on the same string.

Or that's roughly what the installer said when he charged us an extra £40odd per panel to fit them.

Paul

I'm not an expert, but something smells fishy here, and I don't mean our laundry basket.

Could it be that the extra £40 per panel was simply for wiring them up 'correctly'?

Steve

PS Willing and happy to be corrected on this. Solar panels are on my list of things to do.

[scrumpyjack]

It is a bit of gubbins attached to a solar panel

I don't understand the technicalities, but basically AIUI....

Panels operate in 'strings' - a number of panels connected together into one input on the inverter. However this means they are capped at the output of the lowest producing panel. If your array is in partial shade then the ones in full sun get their output reduced. The Optimiser somehow decouples the panels so each one generates at their maximum rate according to the light they recieve.

This makes a big difference for someone like us, who have panels on East and West facing sides of the garage roof both on the same string.

Or that's roughly what the installer said when he charged us an extra £40odd per panel to fit them.

Paul

I'm not an expert, but something smells fishy here, and I don't mean our laundry basket.

Could it be that the extra £40 per panel was simply for wiring them up 'correctly'?

Steve

PS Willing and happy to be corrected on this. Solar panels are on my list of things to do.

Not fishy. We have Solaredge ones on our panels.
https://www.solaredge.com/en/products/r ... optimizers

[stevensfo]

I'm not an expert, but something smells fishy here, and I don't mean our laundry basket.

Could it be that the extra £40 per panel was simply for wiring them up 'correctly'?

Steve

PS Willing and happy to be corrected on this. Solar panels are on my list of things to do.

Not fishy. We have Solaredge ones on our panels.
https://www.solaredge.com/en/products/r ... optimizers

Thanks. You learn something every day here!

Steve

[MrFoolish]

Any appliance that appreciably puts up your electric bill will get warm. It is basic physics. You don't need a smart meter to tell you this. And what's wrong with watching the shiny disc go round on a conventional meter? I thought analogue was trendy again.

[UncleEbenezer]

Any appliance that appreciably puts up your electric bill will get warm. It is basic physics. You don't need a smart meter to tell you this. And what's wrong with watching the shiny disc go round on a conventional meter? I thought analogue was trendy again.

Where is your conventional meter?

I'm not hanging around the cupboard under the stairs any longer than it takes to access things stored there!

[DrFfybes]

Any appliance that appreciably puts up your electric bill will get warm. It is basic physics. You don't need a smart meter to tell you this. And what's wrong with watching the shiny disc go round on a conventional meter? I thought analogue was trendy again.

My dad used to watch the washing machine when we got one with a glass door

[UncleEbenezer]

Any appliance that appreciably puts up your electric bill will get warm. It is basic physics. You don't need a smart meter to tell you this. And what's wrong with watching the shiny disc go round on a conventional meter? I thought analogue was trendy again.

My dad used to watch the washing machine when we got one with a glass door

Anything to distract attention from that nightmare of a son

[SimonS]

Any appliance that appreciably puts up your electric bill will get warm. It is basic physics. You don't need a smart meter to tell you this. And what's wrong with watching the shiny disc go round on a conventional meter? I thought analogue was trendy again.

My dad used to watch the washing machine when we got one with a glass door

If you want to watch a real attractor effect, get a 3D Printer. I lent one to a local shop and for the whole loan period it guaranteed a happy audience watching a plastic Yoda growing at 0.05 mm s every 5 minutes. (high infill, not big Yoda!). And, yes, the advice is not to leave them un-supervised and not to let them be remotely controlled.

[Niksen]

My view of the pros and cons:

Con:
-You can waste a lot of time looking at the bl**dy meter and it is not good for those prone to OCD.
-I used to have a mechanical meter which ran backwards when the solar panel output exceeded usage!
-Big brother is watching!
-It must be extremely expensive to install these things, given how long the guys were here faffing around, and that cost falls on the consumer eventually

Pro:
-One can get advantageous time of use tariffs, reducing bills and helping grid management.
-No meter readers needed
-Accurate bills possible

I took it up for the EV Tariff.

A good summary.

I likewise only had a smart meter installed for the EV tariff, but had I not got an EV then I would now be getting smart meters to take advantage of the 'day of use' Tracker tariff that Octopus offers that is a straightforward charging of that day's marked up wholesale rate; the more complex 'time of use' Agile tariff where the price of electricity changes every 30 minutes seems like too much hassle.

Also I am fortunate to be in one of the areas in the East of England where there is too much renewable generation at some points in time and my supplier has done a deal with the grid to give that electricity away free of charge at those times as it is apparently cheaper doing that than any of the alternatives. Of course that needs a smart meter for it to record what was used during that time, and it needs the consumer to be flexible to make changes about when they are using the electricity.

I have gone further than just looking at the in-home display, and my supplier offers an additional device that connects remotely to the meters and sends live 5 minute electricity data and 30 minute gas data via WiFi to the supplier, which can then be viewed in their app, or more usefully to me is available via an API to bring into Home Assistant. With that data it is really quite revealing to see where energy is being used, particularly, gas use in the winter, with the significant amount of gas used to warm the house from cold in the morning, but then fairly trivial amounts of gas to keep it at that temperature during the day, and that turning the thermostat down whilst you went out for a few hours during the day saved very little indeed.

As for the Big Brother aspect, if anyone did have access to my meter data then it would be damn obvious when I was away from the house for a day or more, but then there are far easier clues to that than hacking into the meter databases.