Should you get a smart meter?

[SimonS]

Just seen this programme on TV in which some supposed celebrity with a reliable face was offering a 'truthful' analysis of why one should get a smart meter.

There were anomalies in the programme that roused my suspicions, the first being that the advert breaks contained only one brief advert, suggesting either that the whole thing was either a satire or paid for entirely by an electricity company trying to meet its government quota.

There was, for example, no real explanation of what a smart meter was for, other than sending half hourly updates of your use of electricity to the power company and advertising obliquely that it can give one access to cheap tariff electricity between 2300 and 0700 (formerly known as SuperSaver) that is only available if you have both a smart meter and direct debiting.

As proof we were introduced to someone whose electricity bill had fallen from £600 a month to £150 a month simply by switching his dishwasher and washing machine on after 2300, which to me sounded like an obsessive amount of washing and drying unless he had a very large family. And as an ordinary family he had a 3 phase power supply where as mere mortals get a single phase. ( The implication being that recharging your electric vehicle required 3 phase if you were going to get a full charge in the Cheap Tariff period)

Also surprising was the claim that the electricity companies had no idea how to analyze their data or to infer usage from frequency and volume from patterns of power usage but used it solely to present one with more accurate power bills. (in which case why log power flows every 30 minutes by individual household? Surely logging the total demand would require less effort at the point of supply rather that the more than 30 million points of demand would be cheaper, with one demand measurement for billing each month?

This was followed by the assurance that all power company computer systems and data stores were so heavily protected from all illegal penetrations that they were technically totally safe!

The programme closed with the admonition that despite 15m of the 30 million installations reporting errors ( how many households are there in UK?) it was beneficial to you the user to have a smart meter, even if you didn't or couldn't take advantage of its abilities; and not to listen to those social media sources that suggested otherwise.

Frankly the whole thing came across as a scam of almost Nigerian proportion. Does anyone know different?

[didds]

sounds like classic gaslighting on a Govian scale!

[UncleEbenezer]

Does anyone know different?

Here's someone who knows.

[Dod101]

I have had a smart meter for some years now and have no problems with it in any sense. It gives accurate readings of my usage and I do nothing. No need to go and read the meter and post it on my supplier’s website for instance so I am all for them.

Incidentally using a dishwasher or washing machine at night whilst you are asleep may seem like a good idea but if something goes wrong, you could have a major problem with escaped water when you wake up.

Dod

[mc2fool]

Sounds like you might have been out of the room for parts of the programme.

For anyone that wants to watch it, it's at https://www.channel5.com/show/smart-meters-should-you-get-one, although I thought it was a bit of a yawn, and not as interesting as I thought it might be.

The guy whose bill fell massively wasn't simply from switching his dishwasher and washing machine on at night but by getting the overnight much cheaper tariff for charging his EV. (Of which he also took advantage of for the dishwasher and washing machine.) Yeah, it wasn't explained why he needed a 3 phase supply, but if you google three phase for ev charging it seems it's needed for a 22kW charger, which gives the fastest recharge time possible at a domestic home ... if you need/want much faster charging that is.

As for "Also surprising was the claim that the electricity companies had no idea how to analyze their data or to infer usage from frequency and volume from patterns of power usage but used it solely to present one with more accurate power bills.". You were surprised the electricity companies claimed that? No surprise for me, more a case of they would say that, wouldn't they?

But there was a long section in the programme about a company called Onzo that says it can use the usage patterns to identify what you're doing when and so let the power co's "monetise their customer data by providing a direct link to appropriate third party organisations based on the customer's identified character."

There's a review of the programme, including that point, at https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/warning-how-smart-meters-can-spy-on-you-as-energy-customers-say-do-not-get-one/ar-BB1hzjFg.

Overall, as I say, I thought the programme was a bit of a yawn, and I doubt much of anyone is going to rush out and book a smart meter upgrade after seeing it; in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it had the opposite effect from all the members of the public in it saying "not for me", "if it ain't broken...", etc, and the likes of the Grayson Perry experience it reported. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67750571

The one big omission for me was that there was no mention that having a smart meter enabled the power co to just turn your supply off, totally, at the click of a mouse. Or maybe I was out of the room for that part ...

[scrumpyjack]

I resisted it for many years but finally agreed to have one 3 months ago.

My view of the pros and cons:

Con:
-You can waste a lot of time looking at the bl**dy meter and it is not good for those prone to OCD.
-I used to have a mechanical meter which ran backwards when the solar panel output exceeded usage!
-Big brother is watching!
-It must be extremely expensive to install these things, given how long the guys were here faffing around, and that cost falls on the consumer eventually

Pro:
-One can get advantageous time of use tariffs, reducing bills and helping grid management.
-No meter readers needed
-Accurate bills possible

I took it up for the EV Tariff. I have recently doubled my solar panels to 9kw, installed 20kwh of batteries, and a backup controller so our system carries on in the event of a power cut. Also I have a unit that passes surplus power to the immersion heater.

I went for the Eon Next tariff meaning that virtually all our electricity costs 9.5p per unit. The batteries charge up at night (as does the EV) and that, combined with modest solar output now, covers all our consumption.

Taking account of what we get from the FIT, Our overall electricity cost is substantially negative. OK there has been a large capital outlay but that is now a sunk cost. The benefits are effectively inflation proof and tax free.

Trouble is, with all that, I'll have to stay in this house. No downsizing for me

[monabri]

There was, for example, no real explanation of what a smart meter was for, other than sending half hourly updates of your use of electricity to the power company and advertising obliquely that it can give one access to cheap tariff electricity between 2300 and 0700 (formerly known as SuperSaver) that is only available if you have both a smart meter and direct debiting.

There's "Economy 7" and "Economy 10" ....no need for a smart meter. Economy 7 has been around nearly half a century ( 46 yrs).

[scrumpyjack]

There was, for example, no real explanation of what a smart meter was for, other than sending half hourly updates of your use of electricity to the power company and advertising obliquely that it can give one access to cheap tariff electricity between 2300 and 0700 (formerly known as SuperSaver) that is only available if you have both a smart meter and direct debiting.

There's "Economy 7" and "Economy 10" ....no need for a smart meter. Economy 7 has been around nearly half a century ( 46 yrs).

The economy 7 tariffs are nowhere near 9.5p an hour and the normal rate tariffs are much much higher. I was on Economy 7 before getting the smart meter.

[International]

Taking account of what we get from the FIT, Our overall electricity cost is substantially negative. OK there has been a large capital outlay but that is now a sunk cost. The benefits are effectively inflation proof and tax free.

Very cool! How much did your installation cost?

I'm trying to get an idea of what the capital costs are for a solar setup to cover the needs of a "typical" 4MWh/year house and am finding the estimates vary a lot. I need to go with ground too, as the roof is unsuitable.

[XFool]

Incidentally using a dishwasher or washing machine at night whilst you are asleep may seem like a good idea but if something goes wrong, you could have a major problem with escaped water when you wake up.

It is also going to increase problems with neighbours - unless you live in a detached property.

[DrFfybes]

We watched this - it really was a load of tosh.

All sorts of wild claims and unreassuring reassurances - there are companies that can tell what appliance you use and when apparently, although from what People Who Apparantly Know say, the meter records and send 30 min data rather than real time, so how the meter knows which combination of kettle, toaster, microwave, vacuum cleaner or toilet seat warmer I use between 08:00 and 08:30 is pure guesswork, especially if it isunny and the panels are producing.

There was one good/bad poitn... assuming yours in one of the 50% or so that actually works and updates properly then it is possible to see changes in usage pattern. Useful for those on the "Vulnerable Person" register as it is feasible to set an alert of sudden changes so situations like https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68027163 could be picked up, more use with the elderly. The downside is others could use it to work out that you were on holiday, but there are FAR simpler ways of finding that out.

Other than that, it was all a bit 'meh'.

I'm trying to get an idea of what the capital costs are for a solar setup to cover the needs of a "typical" 4MWh/year house and am finding the estimates vary a lot. I need to go with ground too, as the roof is unsuitable.

Ground actually costs more - no scaffolding but the supports cost a lot more. also more restirctions and work required for the cabling. We had a few quotes for 5.2kW on the garage roof (platform rather than scaffolding) and a 5kWh battery at about £10-11k last summer, should be just under £10k now.

Paul

[monabri]

There's "Economy 7" and "Economy 10" ....no need for a smart meter. Economy 7 has been around nearly half a century ( 46 yrs).

The economy 7 tariffs are nowhere near 9.5p an hour and the normal rate tariffs are much much higher. I was on Economy 7 before getting the smart meter.

You posted that you had fitted solar panels, batteries plus a smartmeter. If I simply had a smart meter fitted ( without the solar panels etc) could I still have electricity at 9.5p per unit and if not, why not? They could use 50 year old technologies to supply units during a cheap rate period.

If everyone went down the same route of fitting solar panels would the supplier still provide units at 9.5p ? How come they can offer units at 9.5p and still maintain profits? Are your cheaper unit costs being cross subsidised?

[Watis]

Incidentally using a dishwasher or washing machine at night whilst you are asleep may seem like a good idea but if something goes wrong, you could have a major problem with escaped water when you wake up.

It is also going to increase problems with neighbours - unless you live in a detached property.

Assuming you're referring to noise levels rather than the possibility of a water leak, I can't hear either of those appliances in my house from an adjacent room?

Perhaps I've been lucky in my choice of appliances.

I think that the bigger risk is that of an appliance catching fire in the night. In Grenfell Tower, a fridge caught fire, triggered that particular disaster.

Watis

[swill453]

It is also going to increase problems with neighbours - unless you live in a detached property.

Assuming you're referring to noise levels rather than the possibility of a water leak, I can't hear either of those appliances in my house from an adjacent room?

Perhaps I've been lucky in my choice of appliances.

I think that the bigger risk is that of an appliance catching fire in the night. In Grenfell Tower, a fridge caught fire, triggered that particular disaster.

Yes, fire brigade advice is to not run washing machines, tumble driers or dishwashers overnight.

e.g. https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/safety/t ... me-checks/

But note they also say don't charge your mobile phone overnight...

Scott.

[mc2fool]

The economy 7 tariffs are nowhere near 9.5p an hour and the normal rate tariffs are much much higher. I was on Economy 7 before getting the smart meter.

You posted that you had fitted solar panels, batteries plus a smartmeter. If I simply had a smart meter fitted ( without the solar panels etc) could I still have electricity at 9.5p per unit...?

You don't need solar panels etc but I believe that the super cheap tariffs are targetted at EV charging, meaning people who use lots of electricity, and on a quick glance it looks like for some you can only get it if you have certain chargers fitted and/or certain makes of EV. I haven't checked out the T&Cs to find out if there are any gotchas with these tariffs if you don't have an EV at all.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/ev-energy-tariffs/

[gryffron]

Afaik the only real advantage NOW of having a smart meter is the lack of need to submit readings. Plus the gimmick of watching your money tick away.

IN THE FUTURE overwhelming use of renewables will result in tariffs which are cheap on sunny, windy days, and expensive on dull, still days. Nearly everyone will be pushed onto such tariffs, and will need 30 minute readings from a smart meter to implement them. Those who don’t have a smart meter, will pay a MUCH higher price for anytime usage.
Yes, I know a few people are doing this already, and such tariffs are already available, but it really is just a handful at the moment.

Taking account of what we get from the FIT, Our overall electricity cost is substantially negative. OK there has been a large capital outlay but that is now a sunk cost. The benefits are effectively inflation proof and tax free.

Very cool! How much did your installation cost?
I'm trying to get an idea of what the capital costs are for a solar setup to cover the needs of a "typical" 4MWh/year house and am finding the estimates vary a lot. I need to go with ground too, as the roof is unsuitable.

Note that just fitting a typical solar setup won’t help you profit from this variable pricing. Cos you’ll be supplying at the same time everyone else is. Ie. At the lowest price. You need a battery system to profit from variable pricing. Which is much more expensive than simple solar. Indeed, if you don’t really have a suitable site for solar panels, you might benefit more from only a battery/storage solution.

Gryff

[UncleEbenezer]

But there was a long section in the programme about a company called Onzo

You evidently didn't read the link I posted.

And that is how I know that companies like ONZO are full of [expletive deleted].

[Lootman]

The one big omission for me was that there was no mention that having a smart meter enabled the power co to just turn your supply off, totally, at the click of a mouse. Or maybe I was out of the room for that part ...

The power can be turned off from the outside in many homes anyway. But I agree that it should not be that easy for them.

in my case they would need access to the inside of my house, just like they do to read my meter, so I have control over that.

I have no interest in a smart meter.

[Lanark]

Economy tariffs were brought in due to nuclear power, unlike coal and oil you cannot quickly shutdown nuclear plants overnight to match demand.

As the nuclear age ends and we have more wind and solar power, they need smart meters because it is much harder to predict production peaks for wind and solar power.

The part that is missing from this is smart appliances, ideally you would have an in-house battery which could charge up whenever rates are cheap.

[scrumpyjack]

The economy 7 tariffs are nowhere near 9.5p an hour and the normal rate tariffs are much much higher. I was on Economy 7 before getting the smart meter.

You posted that you had fitted solar panels, batteries plus a smartmeter. If I simply had a smart meter fitted ( without the solar panels etc) could I still have electricity at 9.5p per unit and if not, why not? They could use 50 year old technologies to supply units during a cheap rate period.

If everyone went down the same route of fitting solar panels would the supplier still provide units at 9.5p ? How come they can offer units at 9.5p and still maintain profits? Are your cheaper unit costs being cross subsidised?

You don't need solar panels but I think most suppliers say you should have an EV. But I don't know how well enforced that is. With Eon all electricity between midnight and 7am is at the cheap rate and they don't try to control your EV charging as some do (eg Octopus).

No one is subsidising that rate. Because demand is much less at night, there is usually a lot of surplus electricity so the wholesale price is much lower and can even go negative. The wind turbines are still rotating and the nuclear reactors still going but factories, shops and offices are generally closed and people are asleep, not using leccy!