High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
Raptor
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High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Raptor » November 13th, 2016, 10:49 am

A post on the "other forum" made me start thinking last night (a sad indication of the amount of wine I had drunk) about IT's as a high yield alternative.

When the changes on pension drawdown happened I decide to take control of my "pension pots" and take the lump sum to pay for re-modelling at home. At the same time there was a debate on "the other board" about going into later years do we or could we still manage our diverse portfolios and would any surviving spouses or family want to or have the ability to manage the "portfolios". IT's seemed to be the way to go at the time, to that end I started my SIPP with a 50/50 split on ITs and Shares (composition of these not relevant for this topic), since then have decided that my SIPP should be moving towards an IT holding account so all dividends have been invested in IT's.

Now, my thoughts last night was, when or how (or if), a migration plan should be thought about and implemented. We all understand (I think) about the "building phase" of a HYP and to some extent the "taking income phase". OK I am stuck in the middle of that one myself, as could fully retire if I wanted to but would prefer to work until "state pension" lands on my doorstep to decide whether to give up completely. So has anyone else thought this through and acted on it? What were your plans and if acted how have they worked?

Raptor.

seekingbalance
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby seekingbalance » November 13th, 2016, 12:13 pm

I am doing almost exactly this, and have about a 50:50 split between individual shares, mostly hyp, and a mix of ITs and trackers. Not only is this simplifying my portfolio which has had way too many shares, and especially loss makers held for too long, so I have been actively churning my non ISA and SIPP shares to realise gains and cement losses, replacing them with trackers or ITs.

Apart from the simplifying it has also set in place a future reduction in costs, with new purchases and dividend reinvestment cycled into fewer purchases, building up the size of existing holding in a few ITs and Trackers.

In the near term I will retain the individual HYP shares in my tax sheltered accounts, and also keep my higher yielding prefs in my taxable accounts to maximise my tax free dividend allowances for the least amount of money in these accounts, the rest being cycled into SIPPS and ISAs as allowances allow.

tjh290633
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby tjh290633 » November 13th, 2016, 6:33 pm

My view is that, when I feel that I am no longer capable of managing my HYP, I shall switch into suitable ITs. The problem, of course, is knowing when that might be, and whether I shall recognise that situation.

I have got my daughter to put her ISA into a basket of ITs, so I have a model that I can follow if I wish.

TJH

rgifford
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby rgifford » November 13th, 2016, 7:07 pm

tjh290633 wrote:My view is that, when I feel that I am no longer capable of managing my HYP, I shall switch into suitable ITs. The problem, of course, is knowing when that might be, and whether I shall recognise that situation.

I have got my daughter to put her ISA into a basket of ITs, so I have a model that I can follow if I wish.


The problem is also choosing the ITs.

As you have done that already for your daughter, can you give any details of the selection process you used.

My own investigations have shown that selecting ITs is no easier than selecting shares, and in some respects is more difficult.

Gengulphus
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Gengulphus » November 13th, 2016, 8:03 pm

tjh290633 wrote:My view is that, when I feel that I am no longer capable of managing my HYP, I shall switch into suitable ITs. The problem, of course, is knowing when that might be, and whether I shall recognise that situation.


My view is that, if and when I even feel close to that situation, I will switch the SIPP part of my HYP into an annuity - not good from an investment returns point of view, good from an "ensure I've got some basic income on top of the state pension" point of view.

What I do with the ISA and unsheltered parts of it are more problematic...

Gengulphus

tjh290633
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby tjh290633 » November 13th, 2016, 10:23 pm

rgifford wrote:The problem is also choosing the ITs.

As you have done that already for your daughter, can you give any details of the selection process you used.

My own investigations have shown that selecting ITs is no easier than selecting shares, and in some respects is more difficult.


I tended to follow Luniversal's Baskets for inspiration. The list is:

Code: Select all

Investment Trusts              EPIC

City of London                 CTY
Dunedin Income Growth          DIG
F&C Capital & Income           FCI
Invesco Income Growth          IVI
JP Morgan Claverhouse          JCH
Merchants                      MRCH
Murray Income                  MUT
Perpetual I&G                  PLI
Scottish American              SCAM
Schroder Income Growth         SCF
Securities Trust of Scotland   STS
Temple Bar                     TMPL

I also use Alliance Trust (ATST), Foreign & Colonial (FRCL) and Witan (WTAN) for saving for my grandchildren. It's not easy to compare them as the periods of holding are different.

TJH

taken2often
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby taken2often » November 13th, 2016, 11:01 pm

Hi
I used to think I would have the same problem about infirmity until I reallised that the only thing I needed to do was
switch on the income and let it run. At 71 I have now switched on my H-L fund and share account. The taxable one.
If I need more income I could switch on the ISA. Rather than drawing on my three Sipps I would start to sell capital
in the taxable account.

If I am not fit to manage the trading then. I decided I would just ignore the ups and down of these funds. On this basis they should easily outlive me.

See simple

Regards

Bob

Arborbridge
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Arborbridge » November 13th, 2016, 11:06 pm

Just for interest, here is my full list of ITs I use for income. They were chosen for a spread of types, regions and risk:

Code: Select all

Company Name                             Ticker
3i Infrastructure                        3IN
BlackRock Commodities Income Inv Trust   BRCI
City of London Inv Trust                 CTY
City Natural Resources High Yield Trust  CYN
Dunedin Income Growth Inv Trust          DIG
Edinburgh Inv Trust                      EDIN
Finsbury Growth and Income Trust         FGT
Henderson Far East Income Ltd.           HFEL
Invesco Income Growth Trust              IVI
JP Morgan Global Emerging Income         JEMI
JPMorgan European Income Inv Trust       JETI
Law Debenture Corp.                      LWDB
Mercantile Investment Trust (The)        MRC
Merchants Trust                          MRCH
Murray Income Trust                      MUT
Murray International Trust               MYI
Perpetual Income and Growth Inv Trust    PLI
Schroder Income Growth Fund              SCF
Schroder Oriental Income Fund Ltd.       SOI
Temple Bar Inv Trust                     TMPL
UK dividend Aristocrats                  UKDV


Note that BRCI was added partly to offset the risk of BHP Billiton in my HYP, that 3iN some people include in a HYP anyway (though it is listed as an IT elsewhere) and UKDV was added as a sort of competitor to my HYP.

For what it's worth the XIRR is 10.59% from May 2009, but the consituents have not all been in the basket for that duration - it is slowly evolving, but I have on the whole been happy with the income production, but pruning is an on going discussion I have with myself. Last time I looked, capital growth was better than my HYP and income growth similar. The yield at present in 4.1%. The "mix" is roughly 1:1.6 between It basket and HYP.

Gengulphus
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Gengulphus » November 14th, 2016, 6:00 am

taken2often wrote:I used to think I would have the same problem about infirmity until I reallised that the only thing I needed to do was
switch on the income and let it run. At 71 I have now switched on my H-L fund and share account. The taxable one.
If I need more income I could switch on the ISA. Rather than drawing on my three Sipps I would start to sell capital
in the taxable account.

If I am not fit to manage the trading then. I decided I would just ignore the ups and down of these funds. On this basis they should easily outlive me.

See simple


Except that there are some risks to contemplate, such as:

* me going ga-ga and doing something seriously stupid with my finances before anyone realises - more of a risk for me than most, as I'm a confirmed bachelor and strongly prefer living on my own;

* me going ga-ga and the people who deal with my finances under Lasting Power of Attorney not being as financially competent and/or honest as I think they are;

* me going ga-ga, the Lasting Power of Attorney failing for some reason, and the deputy who ends up dealing with my finances not being as financially competent and/or honest as the Court of Protection thinks they are.

They shouldn't happen and hopefully won't, but income that arrives no matter what is a useful bit of extra insurance...

Gengulphus

Julian
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Julian » November 14th, 2016, 6:53 am

I'm already in the process of drifting in this direction.

For those with a big portfolio, too big to keep mainly in SIPP and ISA tax shelters, locked-in capital gains could be a significant barrier if planning a sudden all-in-one transition. This is one of the reasons why I am now releasing sufficient capital gain each year to use up my CGT allowance and am mostly buying ITs with the proceeds. There's still some rebalancing within my HYP but cash is definitely drifting over to ITs.

The other benefit of the above is that, even though my IT portfolio is much, much smaller than my HYP, I strive to make it "small but perfectly formed", i.e. it is a scale version of what my portfolio would look like if I completed the switch to ITs. This way I can leave quite simple instructions for someone else to follow if I was unable to complete the transition, i.e. "sell everything except the following list of ITs and split the proceeds to buy more of each of the aforementioned ITs in the same ratios as the ITs have now. Not everyone is good with even simple ratios so I could even create a spreadsheet where whoever is managing my affairs could enter the proceeds of dumping my HYP and it would calculate for them how much to allocate to the topup of each on my ITs. (My ITs aren't balanced, I have heavy weightings in the UK generalists CTY and EDIN, a slightly lower weighting in MYI, and lower weightings still in some of the far east ones.)

Like Gengulphus though, if I began to think that I was getting to the end-game and was wanting maximum peace of mind I would seriously consider allocating at least some of the proceeds of my HYP to an annuity, possibly an immediate needs annuity if they still existed at that time. If I was eligible for an immediate needs annuity due to dementia though I would probably need to leave instructions for someone else to do that for me.

- Julian

Raptor
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Raptor » November 14th, 2016, 8:48 am

Like Gengulphus I am a confirmed bachelor now. 30 years happily divorced, but always open to an approach, :oops: My daughter has her head screwed on and is a "high flyer" in Travel, but wants to get married and have children soon (the sooner the better, IMO, would make a great granddad).

To breakdown my current position my total portfolio is split 30% IT's, so 70% shares. This years dividend looks to be heading for 5.42%, that is 5.51% Shares and 5.04% IT's. From an income point of view I am happy with my splits. Going forward I cannot decide if I should be looking to a more 50/50 split, which would mean adding IT's to me ISA. Like Julian, I have been eyeing my "capital gains" but the 2 big shares are also good dividend payers, BT nearly went last year but as I was in the process of integrating an inherited portfolio left it alone (fortunately as it has started making a comeback!), the other one was Savills (SVS) shows a capital gain of 152% on cost.

I think I will start moving towards IT's with dividend re-investment. Annuity I had not even considered, but will now.

tieresias
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby tieresias » November 14th, 2016, 4:31 pm

rgifford wrote:My own investigations have shown that selecting ITs is no easier than selecting shares, and in some respects is more difficult.


When I was looking at this, just over two years ago, I received what I considered good advice from Fools to invest in ITs which supplemented my HYP, rather than duplicated it. I reviewed what other posters owned, spent a lot of time on theaic.co.uk and individual IT websites and eventually decided to create two IT portfolios:

1. "Foreign HYPish ITs"
Aberdeen Asian Income (AAIF)
Henderson Far East Income (HFEL)
JP Morgan European Income (JETI)
Murray International (MYI)
North American Income (NAIT)
TR Property (TRY)

The idea was to create a lasting form of equity-based income that was not primarily UK-based. This forms part of my Income Pot. TRY is included because, as an ex-pat, I cannot open a new ISA, so this gave me exposure to commercial property without the tax complications of dealing with PIDs from UK REITs. Overall yield so far is around 3.9% with capital growth of 9% (as of end October).

2. "Growth ITs"
Electra Private Equity (ELTA)
F&C Global Smaller Co's (FCS)
Henderson Smaller Co's (HSL)
Pantheon International Participations (PIN)
Scottish Mortgage (SMT)
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH)

This portfolio is aimed at growth without picking individual shares. Capital growth so far is 21%, with a low 0.7% yield. This forms part of my "Splurge Pot", with the intention that I will sell it off over the first decade or so of early retirement to spend on fun stuff. Any contribution it makes to income is welcome, but incidental.

A few months ago I decided to spread the HYP risk a bit by starting a new UK Equity Income IT portfolio, with a new broker, funded by selling shares which had once been moderate yielders but had now become low yielders, usually with decent capital gains (Sage, Reckitts, Unilever, Diageo,...) and off-setting those capital gains against losses (Tesco, BHP Billiton,...) to eliminate CGT liability. I started with the B7/B8 "baskets", widened the search a bit, reviewed constituents manually at first and later using the Morningstar X-Ray tool, to make sure there was not too much concentration and not too much overlap with my remaining HYP. The outcome is:

3. "UK Equity Income ITs
City of London (CTY)
F&C Capital & Income (FCI)
Lowland (LWI)
Perpetual Income & Growth (PLI)
Scottish American (SCAM)
Standard Life Equity Trust (SLET)

It's early days but so far yield appears to be 3.7% and capital growth is 0. I recognise that there are constituents that are non-UK, just as parts of my "foreign" portfolio are dependent on the UK. This portfolio is another part of my "Income Pot".

My HYP has been trimmed from 45 individual shares to 30, all capital gains have been removed and yield is forecast to be 4.7%. It remains the biggest portfolio within the five that I currently count as my Income Pot, but smaller than any other two combined.

rgifford
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby rgifford » November 14th, 2016, 6:29 pm

tieresias wrote:When I was looking at this, just over two years ago, I received what I considered good advice from Fools to invest in ITs which supplemented my HYP, rather than duplicated it. I reviewed what other posters owned, spent a lot of time on theaic.co.uk and individual IT websites and eventually decided to create two IT portfolios:


Thank you, very useful

kempiejon
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby kempiejon » November 15th, 2016, 9:06 pm

taken2often wrote:Hi
I used to think I would have the same problem about infirmity until I reallised that the only thing I needed to do was
switch on the income and let it run. At 71 I have now switched on my H-L fund and share account. The taxable one.
If I need more income I could switch on the ISA. Rather than drawing on my three Sipps I would start to sell capital
in the taxable account.

If I am not fit to manage the trading then. I decided I would just ignore the ups and down of these funds. On this basis they should easily outlive me.

See simple

Regards

Bob


I'll have to think about this; currently, I'm of a similar mind, provided my planning works out my pensions and investments will generate as much income as I need. The other odds and sods of running the portfolio I'd have thought I could ignore, especially if I'm beyond caring. I've already had a decade looking at the corporate actions I'd expect I could let them lapse. Perhaps I'll pay more attention, maybe more recording of sorting the corporate actions to get a feel for what could happen if I let them default. When I'm unable to manage my affairs I can't see me caring I'm unable to manage my affairs.
I do have a smattering of collectives, ETFs/ITs but not something I'd call a full strategy that I would like to swap my HYP into. I'm fairly interested to see how my thoughts about this might evolve.

Gengulphus
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Gengulphus » November 16th, 2016, 8:47 am

kempiejon wrote:I've already had a decade looking at the corporate actions I'd expect I could let them lapse. Perhaps I'll pay more attention, maybe more recording of sorting the corporate actions to get a feel for what could happen if I let them default. When I'm unable to manage my affairs I can't see me caring I'm unable to manage my affairs.


Yes, letting corporate actions take their default course won't actually lose you much directly: you'll get the proceeds from successful takeovers, you'll get lapsed-rights payments from rights issues to compensate you for the value of the rights. Open offers will probably result in you losing out a bit, but they're not all that frequent and it's unlikely to be much in proportion to the portfolio value.

What they are liable to do is return your portfolio to cash, and it could be at quite a high rate - e.g. a HYP1 owner who did it would have been over 50% back in cash by the end of 2008, due to the 2006-8 spate of takeovers. Which is not a problem in itself - if I'm reaching the stage of being unable to manage my affairs, I probably won't have long enough left for cash to be all that bad a place to be. But it could be if someone incompetent were in charge of the portfolio - most worrying, that person might be me at an early stage in the process of losing my marbles! And it might not be just a matter of reinvesting the cash: I've lived through the tech bubble "sell up everything and put it all into comdotcom.com" siren calls and cannot be certain I would resist something similar if my judgement were sufficiently impaired...

Gengulphus

BrummieDave
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby BrummieDave » November 16th, 2016, 9:26 am

tieresias wrote:
rgifford wrote:My own investigations have shown that selecting ITs is no easier than selecting shares, and in some respects is more difficult.


When I was looking at this, just over two years ago, I received what I considered good advice from Fools to invest in ITs which supplemented my HYP, rather than duplicated it. I reviewed what other posters owned, spent a lot of time on theaic.co.uk and individual IT websites and eventually decided to create two IT portfolios:

1. "Foreign HYPish ITs"
Aberdeen Asian Income (AAIF)
Henderson Far East Income (HFEL)
JP Morgan European Income (JETI)
Murray International (MYI)
North American Income (NAIT)
TR Property (TRY)

The idea was to create a lasting form of equity-based income that was not primarily UK-based. This forms part of my Income Pot. TRY is included because, as an ex-pat, I cannot open a new ISA, so this gave me exposure to commercial property without the tax complications of dealing with PIDs from UK REITs. Overall yield so far is around 3.9% with capital growth of 9% (as of end October).

2. "Growth ITs"
Electra Private Equity (ELTA)
F&C Global Smaller Co's (FCS)
Henderson Smaller Co's (HSL)
Pantheon International Participations (PIN)
Scottish Mortgage (SMT)
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH)

This portfolio is aimed at growth without picking individual shares. Capital growth so far is 21%, with a low 0.7% yield. This forms part of my "Splurge Pot", with the intention that I will sell it off over the first decade or so of early retirement to spend on fun stuff. Any contribution it makes to income is welcome, but incidental.

A few months ago I decided to spread the HYP risk a bit by starting a new UK Equity Income IT portfolio, with a new broker, funded by selling shares which had once been moderate yielders but had now become low yielders, usually with decent capital gains (Sage, Reckitts, Unilever, Diageo,...) and off-setting those capital gains against losses (Tesco, BHP Billiton,...) to eliminate CGT liability. I started with the B7/B8 "baskets", widened the search a bit, reviewed constituents manually at first and later using the Morningstar X-Ray tool, to make sure there was not too much concentration and not too much overlap with my remaining HYP. The outcome is:

3. "UK Equity Income ITs
City of London (CTY)
F&C Capital & Income (FCI)
Lowland (LWI)
Perpetual Income & Growth (PLI)
Scottish American (SCAM)
Standard Life Equity Trust (SLET)

It's early days but so far yield appears to be 3.7% and capital growth is 0. I recognise that there are constituents that are non-UK, just as parts of my "foreign" portfolio are dependent on the UK. This portfolio is another part of my "Income Pot".

My HYP has been trimmed from 45 individual shares to 30, all capital gains have been removed and yield is forecast to be 4.7%. It remains the biggest portfolio within the five that I currently count as my Income Pot, but smaller than any other two combined.


Tieresias, aside from the fact that one is overseas in focus and one is UK in focus, I notice you categorise Portfolio 1 as 'HYPish' and Portfolio 3 as 'Equity Income'. Can I ask if you see a difference in their objectives and thus one is HYPish whilst the other is Equity Income, or is the difference in the naming you use simply down to the general naming convention for the ITs in Portfolio 3 and your own (perhaps TMF even) naming convention for portfolio 1?

Can an 'Equity Income IT' equally be considered to be an 'HYP IT' (and should I put my tin hat on before asking such a question)?

tieresias
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby tieresias » November 16th, 2016, 7:33 pm

BrummieDave wrote:Tieresias, aside from the fact that one is overseas in focus and one is UK in focus, I notice you categorise Portfolio 1 as 'HYPish' and Portfolio 3 as 'Equity Income'. Can I ask if you see a difference in their objectives and thus one is HYPish whilst the other is Equity Income, or is the difference in the naming you use simply down to the general naming convention for the ITs in Portfolio 3 and your own (perhaps TMF even) naming convention for portfolio 1?

Can an 'Equity Income IT' equally be considered to be an 'HYP IT' (and should I put my tin hat on before asking such a question)?


Portfolio 1 should be re-named as "Foreign Equity Income ITs".

At the time, my thinking was that the first portfolio sought income, but from outside the UK, and so supplemented my UK-focussed HYP and the second income sought growth without regard to income.

I offer no answer to your final question :)

DiamondEcho
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby DiamondEcho » November 17th, 2016, 10:54 am

My HYP is approaching where I want it to be so this topic is something I'll be addressing over the next 12-18 months.
Just as a place-holder for the meanwhile I'd suggest looking at the Vanguard Lifestrategy funds. That's not a tip on the funds themselves, but consider the tiered approach they use. In summary each fund in the series is pitched at at age-bracket, and the older a client the more they're steered to de-risk, and progressively increase exposure to bonds vs equity.
When I worked in private client, I wasn't front-end like a salesman, but I worked in the CAOs group and one task was ensuring clients only got sold products that suited them, vs what earned the salesman the highest commissions. So we 'profiled' clients annually which included them laying out their immediate needs and longer-term goals. This was one part of creating a framework for what the client could be sold, and what could not. Within our framework was also a de-risking/locking-in strategy that approximately mirrored the Vanguard one above. It made absolute sense to me then and it still does today many years later.

grimer
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby grimer » November 17th, 2016, 11:42 am

A school friend of my father's has experienced the financial problems caused by Alzheimer's. Her husband used to be a bank manager and had quite a bit of cash squirrelled away. Unbeknown to her, he had given their sons credit cards. Apparently, they spent far too much, but he kept paying the bills and they blew through most of the money. He's still alive, but 'not there' and they're now living on OAP pensions - It appears there isn't an occupational pension, but I'm not sure why or if that was somehow cashed in.

Things were financially very hard for the lady in question and she's been struggling to make ends meet. Recently she discovered that there was more money in a savings account she hadn't been aware of. When she took control, it transpired that one of the sons had known about it and was helping himself to cash - to the tune of £25k.

My dad is aghast at the behaviour of the sons and can't understand why they would first plough through their parents money, knowing that the father had Alzheimer's and then stealing money from a savings account knowing the financial hardship their mother was experiencing - they both have good jobs (the thief is a Deputy Headmaster).

I think it is essential to have some sort of plan in place - at the very least a record containing a list of accounts and assets that both people have access to. If one person is less financially savvy (or simply disinterested), then a simplified portfolio with easy guidelines may need to be implemented years before it is actually needed. This will familiarise them with the trading platforms, bank login procedures, rational behind holdings, how to reinvest or take income, etc.

Stonge
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Re: High Yield "migration", when and how (or if)

Postby Stonge » November 17th, 2016, 12:03 pm

DiamondEcho: Do you mean Target Funds?


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