Who's best for advice?

[Clitheroekid]

I've just bought, with a friend, a rather nice 3 bed stone cottage, with a good sized garden. The reason we bought it was simply because it was at a very good price (the seller agreed a big discount if we could complete within 7 days, which we did).

It's in a fairly run down condition, largely because it's not really been touched for 20 odd years, but it's structurally fine. The problem is that because it all happened so quickly we've not really decided what to do with it. The two main options are to renovate it and sell it (the favourite at present) or maybe to just rent it, though the increasingly hostile climate for BTL is a strong disincentive.

Either way, we've agreed that although we obviously want to make a profit it's equally important to us that it's finished to a high standard, using good quality materials, and not just the cheapest available.

The present layout of the property is rather bizarre, and I suspect that many years ago it was two separate houses. So it will need to be redesigned inside and the question is who would be the best person to provide advice on producing something that would appeal to prospective buyers?

Neither of us has the necessary skills, so I suppose the question is really would people consider it worth employing an architect or would a decent builder be just as good? Having dealt with architects professionally I've seen how much they charge, and I'm also a bit concerned that they might design something that appealed to their own highly developed aesthetic sense but might be rather too much for prospective buyers.

I'm intending to speak to a couple of estate agents to see what's in demand in general terms, but the advice we need is fairly specific - how the rooms should be best laid out; where bathrooms should be; what sort of kitchen should we fit; would it be worth extending, and if so in what way etc.

And although the ultimate profit isn't the only factor we would obviously want advice regarding the various costs involved, as well. Again, I'm not sure to what extent an architect can advise on such matters.

I realise that the only way to find out is to talk to the prospective advisers, but the question is really just to see if anyone else has had experience in a similar situation and what they learnt from it.

[redsturgeon]

I fully concur with your views on architects, in all my dealings with them to date I have not been impressed. They seem more concerned with designing something that will maximise their own commissions while having little concern for budgets or contingencies.

I like the idea of asking a few estate agents around to advise. Their advice will be free with a view to picking up your business later and they should have a good idea of what potential buyers are looking for at the moment and things like the advantage of, three beds one bath vs two beds two baths, open plan rooms vs separate dining rooms etc.

The first decision to nail down though is, are you renting out or selling on? That may result in a different room layout to optimise either rent or sales value.

Also I understand the desire to not do things on the cheap and to use quality materials but there will be a ceiling to what extra quality of fittings and finishes will return for you and the aesthetic decision might not actually be the best economic decision. There is a case in point locally where a four bedroom town house was converted at great expense to a two bedroom townhouse. The quality of the fittings used was excellent and I'd estimate the work would have cost over £100k. This house has been on the market for six months at a price some £300k below that of an identical townhouse in its original four bed guise. So £100k+ to lose £300k

Good luck

John

[Lootman]

I fully concur with your views on architects, in all my dealings with them to date I have not been impressed. They seem more concerned with designing something that will maximise their own commissions while having little concern for budgets or contingencies.

I like the idea of asking a few estate agents around to advise. Their advice will be free with a view to picking up your business later and they should have a good idea of what potential buyers are looking for at the moment and things like the advantage of, three beds one bath vs two beds two baths, open plan rooms vs separate dining rooms etc.

Agree with you both about architects. I've hired two of them, for two different projects, and ended up firing them both. Fool me once etc.

And yes, I think you can get all the ideas you need from a couple of estate agents, some of whom buy buildings with the same kind of idea. In our case he advised maximising the number of bedrooms and bathrooms by redesigning the interior. We actually did our own drawings which were good enough for a builder.

We ended up with 5 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms. Sold for four times the original purchase price, and double our total costs.

[DiamondEcho]

Sounds like a good project to keep you out of trouble for a while

Renovate and sell, vs reno and let. I think you need to consider whether you wish to become a landlord, assuming you aren't already. Even with a good agent it can come with its challenges, and you need to consider what return you'd need, and get, for taking that on.

The floor-plan and standard of finishes should best be pitched for who the target market of the finished property is. If it's local to you you should already have a general idea of the demographic in the area. But also speak to a couple of local estate agents, preferably the negotiators who deal with developers. These IME tend to be the ones with the most grey hair in the shop. They should be experienced with discussing development projects to wring the max of a project for the lowest spend. I.e. pitching for the target market and no higher. IME it’s very easy to veer off into adding additional finishes etc that you like yourself, that you’d enjoy if you lived there, but that’s an easy way for the budget to run-away. IME if there’s scope for adding a bit of wow-factor the kitchen and main bathroom are the places to do it.

If you can access local planning applications, pref. online, do a search for any in the past say 5-7 years that have been made locally and better still if they’re on property similar to your own. That will suggest what others have considered worthwhile doing, and will also tell you how the council handled them, for example whether they refused any and why, or whether they imposed restrictions on the plans, and why. Refusals/restrictions are usually [IME] imposed with specific reference to the borough council’s 5 or 10 year borough ‘development plan’. Finding a copy of the latter and reading it will help you frame the scope for development, especially if the property is listed or in a Conservation Area.

If you know any good local builders, see if they can visit for a wonder around and give you their thoughts and suggestions. [I have had good experience with this with a builder who was recommended by the negotiator at my local agent who dealt with developers/dealers].

Subscribe for e-mail alerts for property listing [sale and rent] within a suitable geographic range of the property. For me I do this with primelocation.com but there are others like findaproperty and/or propertyfinder. Look at which agents have for sale/to rent signs up in the area, and keep an eye on their listings. Study those, it’ll give insight into the style/look of newly renovated property, and also from the listings over time you’ll be able to spot what gets marked ‘under offer’/sold/let etc. Note though that this time of year is deathly quiet for new instructions.

Council Planning Officers. Often a useful resource, but IME busy and underpaid [hence they don’t really assisting flash developers to make ‘even more profit’], and difficult to get any time from to discuss potential, and what the Councils local plan would encourage, and what it probably would not permit. Your experience might vary.

Architects. My experience with them has been as poor as others in this thread. IME if developing/extending they pitch a scheme that pushes beyond what the Planning might allow. They then churn fees engaging in a drawn-out bun-fight. I would hesitate to use one again, and then only via a very good personal recommendation.

[UncleIan]

In defence of Architects, our sample size of one was great. Like you say, put something in that would probably get rejected by planning, but it's all a negotiation tactic really. We had a two floor extension done and he did a fine job. Probably the best value we got was he didn't want hassle from the builders so knew a great one that could get on with the job and wouldn't cause much friction.

You should be able to get an architect to do what you want, you're the customer after all. If you explain that you want the inside rejigged, you don't want to be on Grand Designs, but you want something with a logical layout that will appeal to the most number of punters, they should produce something that meets your brief within the constraints of load bearing walls and budget and so on.

I guess you want someone who's happy to take pride in a bread and butter job. A craftsman not a showman.

[redsturgeon]

Some great advice on this thread and I would agree with it all.

Regarding internal layout as a couple of very general guidelines, I have been looking at this quite a bit over the last couple of years.

Open plan is the current trend, a kitchen/diner living area at the back of the house with access to the garden via large bi-fold or sliding doors is very on trend. If you have the room then ideally a snug when you or another family member wants to be alone. Also with this set up, a separate laundry room is a useful addition.

Upstairs, definitely an en-suite to the master bedroom and then a family bathroom to serve two other bedrooms and another en-suite if it is a four bedder.

John

[oldtimer]

Disclaimer - I'm not an architect!
But I have found them useful in the past to give me ideas about changing the layout of houses I have bought, often in ways that I would not have thought of myself.
I have always done my own project management employing professionals like plasterers (I could never have managed the quality that a good plasterer doing it all the time can achieve), so the remit of the architect is quite restricted and has never cost a lot.
For example, a curved wall to cut off the end of a long narrow bedroom to add a shower room to the next door bedroom. This restored the proportions of the rooms without making it look boxy and chopped about and was easy to do as a partition wall with added insulation to reduce the noise transmission. It avoided altering the window in the long bedroom which always looks awkward. Everyone commented on the look in a favourable way.
But I think it is necessary to make it clear exactly what job you want done to limit the expenditure.

[supremetwo]

Upstairs, definitely an en-suite to the master bedroom and then a family bathroom to serve two other bedrooms and another en-suite if it is a four bedder.John

Yes, the trend is for a multiplicity of bathrooms.

But, who keeps them all clean?

Or are there servants' quarters as well?

[dspp]

CK,

I'm an engineer and have done my own drawings and scopes of work, but also I've used architects and I appreciate the value they can add. So let me also put in a good work for the right architects and give you my view on how to locate them if you don't know the area well.

Go to a few of the better local estate agents, get them to look over the house with a view to giving you their ideas about how best to go forwards. As you do so ask them - verbally - to recommend three or four good local general jobbing builders (i.e. 2-8 man/woman bands) and a few good local architects specialising in reworking property (they will typically be one/two person outfits, often female sole traders). They will not put the recommend in writing so do it verbally, casually. A good estate agent will be able to rattle off the names, a bad estate agent won't.

Each of (say) four estate agents should give you (say) four architects and (say) four builders. Then compare the ?? 16 builders and you'll probably find some cross-over to maybe a dozen. Contact about half a dozen of the builders by phone and ask them which local architects you'd advise for this job - as architects, not as project managers. They in turn will give you a few names. Now you'll have some good triangulation on your local architects.

In my experience the best local architects for this sort of thing will be very used to working with the better quality long established smaller & reputable local builders on this sort of thing, i.e. they won't be working with the unaffordable builders, but neither will they want to work with shoddy builders. It is the builders who will really know the right architects, not the estate agents. The estate agents are just your pathway to the builders.

When you interview your architects deciding your brief to them is the most important thing. If you give a vague brief you'll end up comparing apples with oranges and it will be your fault, not the architects. Of course take up satisfied client references for similar conversions from your architect shortlists.

By the way friend A worked with another friend B as his architect on his house upgrade. He told me she almost drove him mad because she was so careful/picky/precise - but that he came to appreciate why and it saved his bacon on the job. Another by the way: be very clear upfront with the architect whether you are just employing them as architect or also as a project manager. In my opinion if you employ the right builder you can be your own project manager.

regards, dspp

[Lootman]

Yes, the trend is for a multiplicity of bathrooms.

But, who keeps them all clean?

Or are there servants' quarters as well?

The trend is to have more bathrooms than bedrooms, odd though that seems. In our case we ended up with five, plus a ground floor toilet so that dinner guests don't have to go upstairs and get lost.

As for cleaning them, that's easy, you hire someone from Eastern Europe. We have these two older Polish ladies who bring all their own equipment and materials, and blitz the place with vigour and efficiency.

[bungeejumper]

We ended up with 5 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms. Sold for four times the original purchase price, and double our total costs.

If you've really got the space for that without making the bedrooms feel small, then go for it. Or if you might be thinking of multiple occupancy rental or bed & breakfast usage. (In this instance I'm assuming not?)

But during our house-hunting year (okay, admittedly it was 20 years ago) we saw so many sizeable houses that had really sacrificed too much of their space to the ubiquitous urge for installing ensuites in every room. And we watched while many of those houses hung around on the market before eventually selling for much less than the asking prices.

It's a fine balance, and every building is different, obviously. Bungee Towers started out with five large and quite airy bedrooms, and we were renovating and restoring a semi-wreck, so there were no real constraints on what we could so as long as we kept the planners on board. But even so, we took the decision to resist the ensuite imperative - installing only one extra upstairs toilet and a double-sized ensuite shower room, but taking care to put washbasins into four of the five bedrooms.

The rooms have all retained their sense of size and lightness, which can so easily be lost if you start cramming in too many facilities. And for most domestic purposes (excluding multi-occupancy), two upstairs toilets, a shower and a bathroom will cover five bedrooms really. Just my two pence worth.

BJ

[Lootman]

If you've really got the space for that without making the bedrooms feel small, then go for it. Or if you might be thinking of multiple occupancy rental or bed & breakfast usage. (In this instance I'm assuming not?)

But during our house-hunting year (okay, admittedly it was 20 years ago) we saw so many sizeable houses that had really sacrificed too much of their space to the ubiquitous urge for installing ensuites in every room. And we watched while many of those houses hung around on the market before eventually selling for much less than the asking prices.

Your assumption is correct, except that we crafted an "in-law" semi-self-contained flat for my actual mother-in-law, which was easily be re-integrated into the main house when she left.

Totally agree that en suite bathrooms are overdone and in fact we only built one - for the main bedroom. The others were all off hallways and landings, as they should be.
.
And yes, we had the space, it's a 500 square metre house. It has three staircases and many hiding places, which the children had lots of fun with when they were growing up.

[Clitheroekid]

Just to say many thanks for all the helpful advice. I'm visiting the house with a local estate agent I know tomorrow, and it'll be interesting to see what he thinks.