Radiator and valves

[Clariman]

We are having our kitchen done and need a new radiator. Having chosen one, it comes without valves. Given that it is replacing an existing modern (10 years old) radiator, can I assume that either (a) the valves from the existing radiator can be used or (b) any self respecting kitchen installer's plumber would have suitable ones in his van?

This is the rad we have chosen http://www.bestheating.com/milano-alpha ... 420mm.html

Existing rad is a conventional double.

Thanks
Clariman

[quelquod]

10 years isn't long, I'd just assume things will fit unless there's some reason to change the angle of the valves which will depend more on your piping. Radiators don't usually come with valves. You'd need to go back a long way to find valves that weren't compatible even if the tails had needed to be changed. I'd be surprised if any self-respecting plumber didn't have a selection in his van.

[jfgw]

Basic valves are so cheap, I wouldn't contemplate re-using the old ones. I would recommend a TRV, however, and these come in different qualities (and prices). As the radiator is a bit stylish, I suggest that you buy the valves you like unless you are happy with basic white plastic-handled ones.

The threads are 1/2" BSP and any new radiator valve that you are likely to see will fit. (The old cast iron rads had bigger threads.) Pipework is usually 15mm but it could be 10mm or 8mm. Get a new valve suits the pipework if you can, otherwise get 15mm and tell the plumber that he will need to adapt the pipes.

Julian F. G. W.

[PrincessB]

or (b) any self respecting kitchen installer's plumber would have suitable ones in his van?

We let our plumber recommend the TRV valves and he chose a set of Drayton TRV4's which I see are £16 each from Screwfix. Whether they are best in show is a question I'm not qualified to answer, the plumber was a pretty decent chap, so I doubt we've gone too far wrong.

Now being off topic again, I'm still a bit concerned about the heat output of your radiator. if you follow your own link and click on the additional information tag you'll note that the 1.5kw heat output is at △T70.

The page states:
Wattage at △T30 537
Wattage at △T50 1,043

I don't know the size of your kitchen - My kitchen diner is about 30ft by 13ft with a 10 foot vaulted ceiling. It's a new build, so my heat load calculations indicated 1.5kw would be plenty and just to be safe I tripled that to 4.5kw delivered by three tall aluminium radiators.

Despite the radiators not running at anything close to △T70 keeping the room at a comfy 22ºC is not problematic even when it is well below freezing outside. The problems arise when the room has cooled when we've been away for a few days. The radiators struggle to warm the room quickly and it can take a couple of hours before it feels cosy.

Annoyingly, I had factored this in and ordered a two kilowatt electric baseboard heater for these occasions. More annoyingly we chose an Ikea kitchen and they have a much shorter baseboard height, the result being a baseboard heater which won't fit under the units.

What I've learned from the project is that I'd do a better job if I were to start from scratch again. The devil really is in the detail and the more time you spend nailing down every single parameter you can, the happier you'll be at completion.

With that in mind - A couple of questions:

Have you got the plug sockets in the right places? I messed up slightly on this.
What is your plan on lighting? I also messed this up a bit, easily fixable but annoying as the kitchen is not quite bright enough.

Have you got anything that you really want? I wanted two dishwashers and unfortunately could not make them fit! I like having First World Problems.

Regards,

B.

[redsturgeon]

or (b) any self respecting kitchen installer's plumber would have suitable ones in his van?

We let our plumber recommend the TRV valves and he chose a set of Drayton TRV4's which I see are £16 each from Screwfix. Whether they are best in show is a question I'm not qualified to answer, the plumber was a pretty decent chap, so I doubt we've gone too far wrong.

Now being off topic again, I'm still a bit concerned about the heat output of your radiator. if you follow your own link and click on the additional information tag you'll note that the 1.5kw heat output is at △T70.

The page states:
Wattage at △T30 537
Wattage at △T50 1,043

I don't know the size of your kitchen - My kitchen diner is about 30ft by 13ft with a 10 foot vaulted ceiling. It's a new build, so my heat load calculations indicated 1.5kw would be plenty and just to be safe I tripled that to 4.5kw delivered by three tall aluminium radiators.

Despite the radiators not running at anything close to △T70 keeping the room at a comfy 22ºC is not problematic even when it is well below freezing outside. The problems arise when the room has cooled when we've been away for a few days. The radiators struggle to warm the room quickly and it can take a couple of hours before it feels cosy.

I think expecting any room that size to warm up instantly from cold is a big ask.

Annoyingly, I had factored this in and ordered a two kilowatt electric baseboard heater for these occasions. More annoyingly we chose an Ikea kitchen and they have a much shorter baseboard height, the result being a baseboard heater which won't fit under the units.

The delights of Ikea running from pillows to mattresses!

What I've learned from the project is that I'd do a better job if I were to start from scratch again. The devil really is in the detail and the more time you spend nailing down every single parameter you can, the happier you'll be at completion.

+100

With that in mind - A couple of questions:

Have you got the plug sockets in the right places? I messed up slightly on this.

You can never have too many, double the number you first thought of. I have 20 in my kitchen...still not enough.

What is your plan on lighting? I also messed this up a bit, easily fixable but annoying as the kitchen is not quite bright enough.

Leds are wonderful though, 15 years ago my twenty halogens were a nightmare!

Have you got anything that you really want? I wanted two dishwashers and unfortunately could not make them fit! I like having First World Problems.

Regards,

Seriously...30ft x 13ft and not enough room! That's as big as some people's flats!

John

[Clariman]

Thanks everyone.

In terms of heat output, I used about 4 different calculators and they ranged from approx 4400 to 5500 BTU so I went for one just over 5000. The house is modern, kitchen is fairly large with 2 exterior walls. Hopefully that will be sufficient.

Ref valves, I'll buy new ones that kind of match thanks.

Overall design has been done by a kitchen design and supply company with loads of meetings to discuss design and practical detail. Strangely they don't supply the radiator so we had to source one, but the installer will put it in.

[jfgw]

We let our plumber recommend the TRV valves and he chose a set of Drayton TRV4's which I see are £16 each from Screwfix.
B.

I like the TRV4s too. Although the heads are smooth, they are very easy to turn. The £16 one in Screwfix, however, is just the head. The whole valve is £20.

Julian F. G. W.

[bionichamster]

More annoyingly we chose an Ikea kitchen and they have a much shorter baseboard height, the result being a baseboard heater which won't fit under the units.

Being quite tall I've often found kitchen worktops and perhaps more importantly the bottom of sinks to be at a less than convienient height, the sink thing is significant because I have to bend my back significantly to touch the bottom of the sink in most kitchens, thus when washing dishes one might be bent over for enough time to aggravate my back*. So when fitting an ikea kitchen a few years back I simply raised everything up a few extra inches by placing it all on a raised platform which was hidden behind the baseboard. I enlarged the baseboard by purchasing a second one and cutting to size then covering the join with a T section strip of aluminimun.

Just a though for anyone at the starting out stage of planning, you don't always have to conform to the measurements they force upon you.

BH

* There wasn't room for a dishwasher and I dislike them anyway....

[Raptor]

Being quite tall I've often found kitchen worktops and perhaps more importantly the bottom of sinks to be at a less than convienient height, the sink thing is significant because I have to bend my back significantly to touch the bottom of the sink in most kitchens, thus when washing dishes one might be bent over for enough time to aggravate my back*. So when fitting an ikea kitchen a few years back I simply raised everything up a few extra inches by placing it all on a raised platform which was hidden behind the baseboard. I enlarged the baseboard by purchasing a second one and cutting to size then covering the join with a T section strip of aluminimun.

Just a though for anyone at the starting out stage of planning, you don't always have to conform to the measurements they force upon you.

BH

* There wasn't room for a dishwasher and I dislike them anyway....

About the height. Very true. My builders work as site management and bring in the trades and suppliers needed. The kitchen suppliers they use normally only do new builds but agreed to do mine (think they saw it as a challenge as did the worktop supplier). Anyway, got a unique depth for the American fridge/freezer, larger than is normal gap for the hob and overhead extractor. The sink unit fits in a "customised" unit so as to allow door openings either side. Specially designed and sized wine rack to fit space left over as well as customised unit over wine rack to display glasses. The height of the worktop splash back was also unique to fit nicely in the space available as was the "splash-back" behind the hob. If you pay you can get almost anything.
Which brings me to new project that has taken a year just to get the plans through the council (and that was just building regs, lucky did not go for planning regs), now going into discussions about under floor heating and size/type of lanterns.

Raptor.

[PrincessB]

I think expecting any room that size to warm up instantly from cold is a big ask.

It funny you should say that as I've got the heating on at the moment and the radiator next to the desk (I know it's the dining room but it still got a desktop and desk in the corner) is running at 60ºC which gives △T40 which is a little over half of the radiators quoted heat output - Hence my continued concern over the new radiator.

Before I moved the old lounge diner was a similar size to the current room and dual aspect with a pair of reasonably large conventional radiators under each window. They certainly ran far hotter than the units I've got now, I didn't have a temperature detector gun back then, but they got far to hot to touch.

As a result, they got hot enough to radiate heat rather than relying mostly on convection, and as a result the room felt warm and cosy after 10 minutes rather than a couple of hours.

My main point is really that until it is established how hot the new radiator gets, it is not possible to calculate how much heat is going to come out of it. If perchance the water is only 35ºC hotter than the surroundings, you'll need a radiator rated for 10,000BTU in order to get the required 5,000BTU out of it.

Regards,

B.

[pendas]

My daughters house has Drayton TRV4s.

I guess they are now 10 years old or so and the heads are now dropping off with the slightest knock due to the plastic construction under the retaining collar crumbling.

The good news is that the heads can be purchased separately and take seconds to fit onto the existing valve without draining the system.

[stewamax]

The problem with TRVs of whatever make is that eventually they start to weep up though the spindle that connects the head to valve proper. Drayton TRV4s - which are fine valves - leak into the head, but the first you know about it is drops of water dripping from the head - by which time the head is internally corroded. A series of up and down movements of the spindle may well fix the leak for a time but the head is still likely to be knackered.

In passing, if you need to drain down to replace a leaking TRV (as opposed to just a faulty head), replace the lockshield valve as well. Drayton (e.g.) have a TRV and lockshield pack that is only a few ££ more than the TRV pack

[richlist]

We have TRV's in some of our places that are 27 years old, working fine and not leaking.

A testament to Drayton valves.

We do put corrosion inhibitor in the system every year and try not to wack them with the vac cleaner.