Is advice work?

[csearle]

<rant>
On a Saturday afternoon I, in my capacity as an electrician, get a phone call asking me to attend a house in the country (with rented-out flats) where a Passive Infrared (PIR)-floodlight is staying on permanently and disturbing a resident. I attend at 1800.

I discover that the PIR floodlight (almost certainly the PIR) is defective and suggest it be replaced. I also discover through persistence that there is a switch that will turn the thing off. I suggest that we turn it off and schedule an appointment for the PIR-Floodlight to be replaced. I am also made aware of a cellar downlight that is not working. I diagnose this as a heat problem and suggest an LED replacement lamp.

So today, three weeks alter, I am catching up with my homework and invoice this lady for 30 minutes (just over £20) to cover my Saturday evening (1800-1830) call out and asking her, quite nicely, what exactly we had agreed going forwards. It has been three weeks and I have forgotten (I'm 63).

She is now kicking up a fuss about paying my invoice. She says regarding the cellar light I only gave her advice but didn't actually do anything, and similar for the main fault. My feeling is that rocking up on a Saturday evening and giving advice is also work.

Chris
</rant>

[Hallucigenia]

Advice is free, but it's a £20 callout charge... (which in itself feels low, particularly out of normal working hours)

[Mike4]

She is now kicking up a fuss about paying my invoice. She says regarding the cellar light I only gave her advice but didn't actually do anything, and similar for the main fault. My feeling is that rocking up on a Saturday evening and giving advice is also work.

Chris
</rant>

Ah you have my sympathy. You have inadvertently allowed yourself ruthlessly to be taken advantage of. The point is, as a self-employed geezer you are selling your time and knowledge rather than specifically 'doing work', and this mindset helps tradesmen like us anticipate and head off such situations. Like the apocryphal Irishman who, when asked for directions to somewhere, said "Ah now Sor, if I were going there, I wouldn't start from here", I would say this problem started off when you accepted the call-out. I have learned to tell such callers my terms and hourly rate before agreeing to attend, and in particular to explain I will require payment for the visit prior to leaving site. The thing is, before attending, YOU are in the position of calling the shots but after going and doing <whatever> and posting off an invoice at a later date, all power shifts to them. They are free to dick you about and some people will. Remember they want YOU to attend and that is the point at which you have the power to dictate the terms under which you will turn out on a wet Saturday evening. Or a normal Tuesday afternoon, its all the same principle. If they won't or can't agree then sorry, call someone else. My attitude is its better to sit on your sofa not being paid than waste an evening of your time visiting and helping someone, and not being paid.

So don't let it happen that way. I've learned simply not to go if the (potential) customer sounds iffy about paying on the nail. Too many times I've landed myself in the exact same situation as you were collecting the money soaks up more of my time and energy than doing the call-out in the fist place. So nowadays I carry a debit/credit card terminal about with me and collect payment before leaving the house, without fail, having agreed with them in advance that payment will be made on completion of the visit. This works well for me and for you, and it might too. Or at least take what you can from my methodology.

I know its all too late for this now, but if you are being stitched up by an avaricious customer*, at least use the experience to work out a method of avoiding the same situation again. You may feat it make you look tough and un-trusting to potential customers, but to them it looks prudent and businesslike. And anyone who baulks at paying on the nail, well you might not actually want to work for them, might you?

All a bit of a rant but I've been there, got the tee shirt and this is my solution. You might find it or something similar, works for you too.

In the meantime, maybe CK will have something to add!

[Mike4]

Advice is free, but it's a £20 callout charge... (which in itself feels low, particularly out of normal working hours)

£20...???!!!!

I suspect you haven't called out an emergency plumber or electrician on a Saturday evening recently, Lol!

[csearle]

Thanks team. This kind of this thing happens so infrequently that it seems petty to even mention it, but it really grates.

I have two years to go before I retire and live off my HYP. I am not sure if I will go with the card reader concept. I see it. I get that it would prevent situations like mine, but how many times does this kind of thing happen? Rarely. I've not ruled it out or in.

Thanks, anyway,
C.

[servodude]

She is now kicking up a fuss about paying my invoice. She says regarding the cellar light I only gave her advice but didn't actually do anything, and similar for the main fault. My feeling is that rocking up on a Saturday evening and giving advice is also work.

Chris
</rant>

Ah you have my sympathy. You have inadvertently allowed yourself ruthlessly to be taken advantage of. The point is, as a self-employed geezer you are selling your time and knowledge rather than specifically 'doing work', and this mindset helps tradesmen like us anticipate and head off such situations. Like the apocryphal Irishman who, when asked for directions to somewhere, said "Ah now Sor, if I were going there, I wouldn't start from here", I would say this problem started off when you accepted the call-out. I have learned to tell such callers my terms and hourly rate before agreeing to attend, and in particular to explain I will require payment for the visit prior to leaving site. The thing is, before attending, YOU are in the position of calling the shots but after going and doing <whatever> and posting off an invoice at a later date, all power shifts to them. They are free to dick you about and some people will. Remember they want YOU to attend and that is the point at which you have the power to dictate the terms under which you will turn out on a wet Saturday evening. Or a normal Tuesday afternoon, its all the same principle. If they won't or can't agree then sorry, call someone else. My attitude is its better to sit on your sofa not being paid than waste an evening of your time visiting and helping someone, and not being paid.

So don't let it happen that way. I've learned simply not to go if the (potential) customer sounds iffy about paying on the nail. Too many times I've landed myself in the exact same situation as you were collecting the money soaks up more of my time and energy than doing the call-out in the fist place. So nowadays I carry a debit/credit card terminal about with me and collect payment before leaving the house, without fail, having agreed with them in advance that payment will be made on completion of the visit. This works well for me and for you, and it might too. Or at least take what you can from my methodology.

I know its all too late for this now, but if you are being stitched up by an avaricious customer*, at least use the experience to work out a method of avoiding the same situation again. You may feat it make you look tough and un-trusting to potential customers, but to them it looks prudent and businesslike. And anyone who baulks at paying on the nail, well you might not actually want to work for them, might you?

All a bit of a rant but I've been there, got the tee shirt and this is my solution. You might find it or something similar, works for you too.

In the meantime, maybe CK will have something to add!

Totally agree that what Chris has done is absolutely "work"
"Giving advice" on electical problems can elsewhere be known as engineering consultancy!
- but neither am I surprised by the wifie in question "trying it on".

Practically perhaps suggest to her that the best path forward is you finishing the job given you are part way through the work ( anyone else would have to restart from scratch... though you have found the switch for her?! )
- the final invoice should cover the initial "fault finding" investigation phase

and on another note..."avaricious customer" catches the eye on a quick reading just enough to suggest the hint of a Robin Askwith movie... well done Mike!

[Hallucigenia]

Advice is free, but it's a £20 callout charge... (which in itself feels low, particularly out of normal working hours)

£20...???!!!!

I suspect you haven't called out an emergency plumber or electrician on a Saturday evening recently, Lol!

I was trying to be gentle, and also we don't know the details of the arrangement, the bulk of the cost could be covered by a retainer for instance.

@csearle - something like (i)Zettle has no monthly fees, just £29 for a card reader that Bluetooths to your phone, and 1.75% of transactions, so would probably work quite well for your situation.

[csearle]

Thank you. The situation is relatively new for me. I usually do work for people that are so incredibly grateful that they pay immediately. Hitherto there seems to have been no need to get cash up-front. There has been a kind of my-word-is-my-bond feel about it.

There is one cumt called Tim in Bromley that let me rewire half his house then refused to pay because he argued three clips in his garage should have been made of metal but I've (almost) got over that.

I think I'm currently in shock. It is only twenty quid. Not worth even posting about one might reasonably think. I think it is the principle that shocks me. The client is clearly in an elevated position in life. Why quibble over £20 with an electrician that has attended on a Saturday evening in good faith?

[servodude]

Thank you. The situation is relatively new for me. I usually do work for people that are so incredibly grateful that they pay immediately. Hitherto there seems to have been no need to get cash up-front. There has been a kind of my-word-is-my-bond feel about it.

There is one cumt called Tim in Bromley that let me rewire half his house then refused to pay because he argued three clips in his garage should have been made of metal but I've (almost) got over that.

I think I'm currently in shock. It is only twenty quid. Not worth even posting about one might reasonably think. I think it is the principle that shocks me. The client is clearly in an elevated position in life. Why quibble over £20 with an electrician that has attended on a Saturday evening in good faith?

cos they share traits with the aforementioned Tim?

[Lanark]

Send a bill for £200, say you got the decimal point in the wrong place.

When they try to argue back down to £20, you say OK just this once as the first invoice was wrong.

[Mike4]

Thank you. The situation is relatively new for me. I usually do work for people that are so incredibly grateful that they pay immediately. Hitherto there seems to have been no need to get cash up-front. There has been a kind of my-word-is-my-bond feel about it.

There is one cumt called Tim in Bromley that let me rewire half his house then refused to pay because he argued three clips in his garage should have been made of metal but I've (almost) got over that.

I think I'm currently in shock. It is only twenty quid. Not worth even posting about one might reasonably think. I think it is the principle that shocks me. The client is clearly in an elevated position in life. Why quibble over £20 with an electrician that has attended on a Saturday evening in good faith?

So its not about the money, you can afford the hit! Nor is it for them as they are obviously not on their uppers and can easily afford it. So for you it's probably all about the personal insult of being refused payment of this token sum for the visit. Or it would be for me anyway. And for them its all about shafting tradesmen who are trusting enough to let it happen.

Do your T&Cs contain an E&OE clause? If so, send them a revised bill for £200 invoking the clause, then add in some swingeing late payment penalties, then sue them for it along with court fees. Soak up a load of their time dreaming up and presenting a defence to the court, or stiff them handsomely for the trouble they are putting you to.

If you can be bothered.

[csearle]

I think you're right Mike C.

[Mike4]

I think you're right Mike C.

Possibly. I've given this sort of stuff one helluvalot of though over the decades!

And frankly for me, it happens so rarely I actually just take it on the chin, no longer let it worry me and just get on with life. I almost enjoy not letting it bother me in the way they hope it will. But we all deal with it in our different ways. Thinking through and analysing the emotions invoked is cathartic enough for me. Just about...

[GoSeigen]

£20...???!!!!

I suspect you haven't called out an emergency plumber or electrician on a Saturday evening recently, Lol!

I was trying to be gentle, and also we don't know the details of the arrangement, the bulk of the cost could be covered by a retainer for instance.

@csearle - something like (i)Zettle has no monthly fees, just £29 for a card reader that Bluetooths to your phone, and 1.75% of transactions, so would probably work quite well for your situation.

We use this type of payment for our business. We deal with potential customers the same way as Mike4: payment up front in cleared funds at our going rate or they don't pass through the door. We take cards or cash (but not bitcoin!!) and also accept bank transfers especially for payment in advance and ask for a proof of payment in that case, because problems are much simpler to pursue with written evidence that the customer agreed and actually tried to pay than just having a verbal "confirmation".Additionally, as consumer rights (correctly IMO) are heavily protected, it provides an opportunity to minimise the chance of the customer exercising their rights and the repercussions/cost if they do choose to do so (e.g. by presenting a receipt with appropriate small-print).

Sorry if teaching grandma to suck eggs, but I'm guessing from the OP that he has shifted from working in a corporate set-up to doing his own business.


GS

[csearle]

Sorry if teaching grandma to suck eggs, but I'm guessing from the OP that he has shifted from working in a corporate set-up to doing his own business.

Yes I became self-employed in the late 1980s, and then as an electrician in the noughties. This is only the third time I have had an issue with payment. It is only for £20 so I'm not likely to dwell on it for too long. It's just the principle that irks me.

She has messaged me saying I should reduce my £20 bill by whatever I charged for the time taken to investigate her cellar light (because the outcome was simply advice rather than anything physical). No wonder she can afford a six bedroom gated mansion in the Sussex countryside! C.

[the0ni0nking]

Sorry if teaching grandma to suck eggs, but I'm guessing from the OP that he has shifted from working in a corporate set-up to doing his own business.

Yes I became self-employed in the late 1980s, and then as an electrician in the noughties. This is only the third time I have had an issue with payment. It is only for £20 so I'm not likely to dwell on it for too long. It's just the principle that irks me.

She has messaged me saying I should reduce my £20 bill by whatever I charged for the time taken to investigate her cellar light (because the outcome was simply advice rather than anything physical). No wonder she can afford a six bedroom gated mansion in the Sussex countryside! C.

I think it's self evident to anyone reading it that:

(i) you have a very cheap call out rate

(ii) the £20 to cover the reason for the call out was then supplemented by additional work (which is what advice from a professional which can be considered to be relied on is!)

(iii) you haven't actually charged for this additional work

I'd reply back saying simply the £20 was the fee for the work specified and then I offered additional advice which I have not charged for on the basis that such advice often comes with the territory. (I know for example I got the guy who was out to replace my garage lock to also have a look at one of my window locks at the same time and I hadn't mentioned that to him on the phone - it took him all of 2 minutes to do so I guess it might depend on how long these non-disclosed items take).

If they didn't respond then by paying up, I'd be looking at MCOL irrespective of the amount - but especially if I felt they were been totally unreasonable which on the face of what you have said; they are.

(PS - presumably the light had been playing up for some time - why call you out on a Saturday - especially when by the sounds of it they could have just switched it off. Seems to me like they're lazy so and sos as well as non-paying so and sos as well!)

[Dod101]

I appreciate that csearle is not a corporate business and he appears to be endearingly old fashioned but my plumber charges £95 per hour for out of hours call outs and for calls to new customers it is cash up front.

Not suggesting that the op needs to go that far but he is just being taken advantage of and I think Mike4 has got a good middle of the road approach.

Dod

[servodude]

Sorry if teaching grandma to suck eggs, but I'm guessing from the OP that he has shifted from working in a corporate set-up to doing his own business.

Yes I became self-employed in the late 1980s, and then as an electrician in the noughties. This is only the third time I have had an issue with payment. It is only for £20 so I'm not likely to dwell on it for too long. It's just the principle that irks me.

She has messaged me saying I should reduce my £20 bill by whatever I charged for the time taken to investigate her cellar light (because the outcome was simply advice rather than anything physical). No wonder she can afford a six bedroom gated mansion in the Sussex countryside! C.

Do as she suggests....
...and adjust the invoice for the time taken dealing with her emails and posting here for "professional advice".
I must confess though that I have been pretty terrible sometimes at keeping track of the time I've spent dealing with clients in this regard before; I run Harvest on my phone so I can easily switch between clients time tracking when I'm in "dealing with the shite" mode

[DrFfybes]

She has messaged me saying I should reduce my £20 bill by whatever I charged for the time taken to investigate her cellar light (because the outcome was simply advice rather than anything physical). No wonder she can afford a six bedroom gated mansion in the Sussex countryside! C.

Message her back telling her to stick her £20 up her gated community and say that she is now on a local blacklist of nonpaying clients. Wish her luck in her future endeavours, especially those involving electrical work. Then block her number.

She has come to you out of the blue? She must have a whole raft of tradesmen she uses, or rather she should have. Perhaps she's upset so many she's running down the phonebook. Either way you can move on, and she might just come slightly closer to realising what sort of 'businesswoman' she actually is.

Paul

[edit - can you leave HER a Google review?]

[mc2fool]

Well Chris, I'm going to take a bit of a different view to the other replies...

What I read from your OP is that you didn't tell her how much your call out fee would be up front, on the phone when she called. If you had and she'd said OK then there wouldn't be an issue. You also obviously didn't say anything about it when you were there, so it's not surprising that she's a bit put out at the first mention of money being some three weeks later.

Also, I am surprised that, also at three weeks later, you were "asking her, quite nicely, what exactly we had agreed going forwards". So you don't know/remember what was agreed? Or it wasn't clear what was agreed? I take it this also means that you hadn't already given her a quote, either on the spot or in a soon-after follow-up for fixing the problems?

On the general question of "is advice work?" I think it depends on context. When I get tradesmen round to look at something, either for myself or for the self-managed (mostly me) block of flats I live in, it's almost always on a come round, look, discuss and quote basis and I would never expect to pay a call out fee for that, and never have. Any advice offered during the visit is part of the pre-sales discussion.

Now I do get that from your perspective this wasn't a come-out-and-quote visit, and if she was calling you out on a please-come-and-fix-it-now basis then maybe she should have expected a call out fee, but, hey, it's your time and I think your responsibility to make fees clear up front.

In regards to this particular situation and this lady, depending on how you feel about it and her (and the possibilities or not of future business from her), I'd either write off the £20 to experience and never deal with her again or apologise to her that you didn't make the call out fee clear up front and tell her that as you didn't specify it you'll waive it this time and give her a quote for returning to fix the issues (which you may choose to inflate by £20 ), and if she doesn't employ you to do that just shrug it off.

Oh, and I do agree that you have a very cheap call out rate!