HMRC have lost the plot again - Paper tax returns

[Fluke]

HMRC have written to tell me to do an on-line tax return this year.

Only I can't for the same reason I haven't been able to do one for the last 10 years which is because I have Trust income and their software doesn't deal with that yet

Just did my return (online) this morning so it's fresh in my mind and I'm pretty sure there was a section about trust income, just checked, this is one of the questions you're required to answer yes or no to, does this not cover your needs?

Trusts etc

Did you receive, or are you treated as having received, income from a trust, settlement or the residue of
a deceased person’s estate? This does not include cash lump sums/transfer of assets, otherwise known as capital distributions, received under a will.

If you answer yes you get given that section to fill in. It may not all apply but you only fill in the boxes that do.

Agree with everything nocton said, online is better.

[mutantpoodle]

copy of self assessment page

You cannot use this service if in the tax year ending 5 April 2023 you received:

trust, settlement or estate income
Help about: Welcome Page 02 - Trust, settlement or estate income
If you were a beneficiary of a trust (excluding a 'bare' trust) or settlement, or the settlor of a trust or settlement whose income is deemed to be yours, you will need to complete the 'Trust etc' pages.

[Gan020]

further follow up. I got the SA107 pages on Saturday with SA100, SA101,SA106 to follow, not that it matters now as I've printed them off and posted my return.

What does bother me is that HMRC have now sent me two lots of forms in the post, very nicely packed with stiff cardboard and presumably I'm going to get more all of which the taxpayer is paying for. So, including the nice letter they sent me telling me to do an on-line return which I can't that's 3 lots of postage so far and still counting.

I'm now moving on to the Trust Tax return which HMRC haven't sent me either. It's been slowly getting later and later over the years. I used to get it around the 11th April about 10 years ago, last year it had got as late as the 2nd May and now it's slipped another two weeks. It frustrates me that they are taking a perfectly good system and changing it and making it worse.

[Nocton]

As mentioned, if you have trust income, you can file on-line. Only if you are a trustee with the financial responsibility do you need to do it on paper.

Trustees - tax responsibilities
As the trustee, you’re responsible for reporting and paying tax on behalf of the trust.
If there are 2 or more trustees, nominate one as the ‘principal acting trustee’ to manage its tax. The other trustees are still accountable, and can be charged tax and interest if the trust does not pay.

It is quite untrue "that they are taking a perfectly good system and changing it and making it worse.". Think of the environment and the paper you would save by going on-line. And it is so easy to copy and paste text or figures from a spreadsheet into the return, which ensures that errors are reduced

[mutantpoodle]

[quote="Nocton"]As mentioned, if you have trust income, you can file on-line. Only if you are a trustee with the financial responsibility do you need to do it on paper.

As you can se from my previous post on this thread...I am not able to agree with you...I DO WANT TO...!

please tell me/direct me to where in my online return pages I declare the payment received as a beneficiry of a discretionary trust
I have the R185 from the trust

as far as I see the rules for online.....I cannot do it...but..........??

[Fluke]

As mentioned, if you have trust income, you can file on-line. Only if you are a trustee with the financial responsibility do you need to do it on paper.

As you can se from my previous post on this thread...I am not able to agree with you...I DO WANT TO...!

please tell me/direct me to where in my online return pages I declare the payment received as a beneficiry of a discretionary trust
I have the R185 from the trust

as far as I see the rules for online.....I cannot do it...but..........??

How about 'Other UK taxable Income'? Enter the figures in the relevant boxes and in the Description box (21) put "Beneficiary of discretionary trust"

Wouldn't that work?

[Gan020]

As mentioned, if you have trust income, you can file on-line. Only if you are a trustee with the financial responsibility do you need to do it on paper.

Trustees - tax responsibilities
As the trustee, you’re responsible for reporting and paying tax on behalf of the trust.
If there are 2 or more trustees, nominate one as the ‘principal acting trustee’ to manage its tax. The other trustees are still accountable, and can be charged tax and interest if the trust does not pay.

It is quite untrue "that they are taking a perfectly good system and changing it and making it worse.". Think of the environment and the paper you would save by going on-line. And it is so easy to copy and paste text or figures from a spreadsheet into the return, which ensures that errors are reduced

The other posts on the Board appear to conclude it is not possible to file on-line if you have income from a Trust so it would be helpful if you could clarify that you have done this yourself and how.

I tried and there is no option to fill in the Trust pages on-line (for example for foreign income it asks if you have any y/n. For trust income it doesn't even ask)

It is possible to file an R40 for tax reclaim on income from a trust but this is different. It's not a self-assessment return. I use this for my chilren who have less complex tax affairs. It is not possible to use this is you have foreign income over IIRC £1k or have additional income

I suspect it is possible if you pay for computerised software to file on-line with Trust income. However, I'm not paying even £15 to fill in about 30 boxes. That's about 50p per box.

[Nocton]

A beneficiary should/may receive a form from the trustees stating their income. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1140094/R185-Trust-Income-2023.pdf

On that form it says:
Notes for beneficiaries
Keep this form and refer to it if you’re completing a tax return or claiming a tax repayment.
If you need to complete a tax return, copy the amounts of income from boxes 1 to 5 to the corresponding boxes on the
SA107 ‘Trusts etc’ pages of the tax return.

On the prelimnaries of the SA form, one of the questions is:
Trusts etc
Did you receive, or are you treated as having received, income from a trust, settlement or the residue of
a deceased person’s estate? This does not include cash lump sums/transfer of assets, otherwise known as capital distributions, received under a will.
Yes/No

If you say Yes then the part of the form dealing with trust income will be displayed.

[Gan020]

A beneficiary should/may receive a form from the trustees stating their income. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1140094/R185-Trust-Income-2023.pdf

On that form it says:
Notes for beneficiaries
Keep this form and refer to it if you’re completing a tax return or claiming a tax repayment.
If you need to complete a tax return, copy the amounts of income from boxes 1 to 5 to the corresponding boxes on the
SA107 ‘Trusts etc’ pages of the tax return.

On the prelimnaries of the SA form, one of the questions is:
Trusts etc
Did you receive, or are you treated as having received, income from a trust, settlement or the residue of
a deceased person’s estate? This does not include cash lump sums/transfer of assets, otherwise known as capital distributions, received under a will.
Yes/No

If you say Yes then the part of the form dealing with trust income will be displayed.

I am sorry but it does not do this for me. By the preliminiaires section I assume you mean tailor your return
This follows the same structure as the paper return but there is no option for trusts.
Tailor your return 01- employee, director etc
Tailor your return 02 - self employed or partnership
Tailor your return 03 - self employed
Tailor your return 04 - partnership
Tailor your return 05 - Property
Tailor your return 06 - Foreign
Tailor your return 07 - Capital Gains
Tailor your return 08 - Interest
Tailor your return 09 - Dividends
And so it goes on. The trusts part simply isn't there.

I am using the governments "fill in your tax return" service on tax.service.gov.uk

I am completely puzzled

[mutantpoodle]

FAO GAN 020


I am completely puzzled...........you are not alone
there is no option for the 107 to be done online (with HMRC system)

yes we all receive the R185 as given by the trust showing benefit and tax paid on said benefit
but,,,,,,
I repeat earlier HMRC resrtiction

You cannot use this service if in the tax year ending 5 April 2023 you received:

trust, settlement or estate income


there might be some confusion between 'trustees' and 'beneficiaries'.in some of the above posts

[Nocton]

This is a complete mystery to me too as my on-line form is quite clear, as is the HMRC web site I quoted, that you can enter trust income on-line.
These are the preliminary headings for my on-line form:
1. Employment.
2. Self-employment.
3. Partnership.
4. UK property.
5. Foreign.
6. Trusts etc
Did you receive, or are you treated as having received, income from a trust, settlement or the residue of
a deceased person’s estate? This does not include cash lump sums/transfer of assets, otherwise known as capital distributions, received under a will.
7. Capital Gains Tax summary.
8. Residence, remittance basis etc.
Clearly different from Gan020's list.
Note that the form is labelled in the footer as: SA100 2023 HMRC 12/22. Maybe others are using an old form - need to clear the cache on their browser?

[Gan020]

Note that the form is labelled in the footer as: SA100 2023 HMRC 12/22. Maybe others are using an old form - need to clear the cache on their browser?

Ah- are you filling in an on-line form to print off and then put in the post or are you completing the on-line self-assessment which you submit electronically?

[Nocton]

I am doing everything on-line and submitting electronically.

[gt94sss2]

You can use SA2000, an Excel based system, to complete and print your return for submission. It is free to do that, or you can pay about £12 for it to submit the return online.
https://www.sa2000.co.uk/

Worth noting their instructions now state:

Please note that HM Revenue and Customs no longer approves computer printouts as “substitutes”. Our software is designed to submit tax returns by the internet. The print options are for your own records.

[Oswulf]

It's not only those with trust income that can't use the online system. After all these year the system still can't be used by non-residents. (At least that was the case last time I checked.) Non-residents are a group that would benefit greatly from online submission. As it is, there's the expense of sending the paperwork to HMRC, the uncertainty of whether it's actually arrived, and the staggeringly long delays before one hears back from them.