Traffic Accident.

[JustLetOneOff]

I would like to get your thoughts on the following incident:- My friend, Peter, approached a roundabout in the right hand lane to go straight ahead 2nd exit. Lane markings on the approach to the roundabout showed that this was allowed. A lady entered onto the roundabout at the same time as Peter approaching in the same direction using the left hand lane. So they both entered the roundabout next to each other. As Peter got passed the first exit he signalled left and was exiting the roundabout coming off in the right hand lane. The lady who originally was planning to go straight ahead and exit off in the left hand lane decided she was going to go around the roundabout and come off at the right hand exit. She wasn't signalling. They hit each other as Peter was coming off the roundabout. Now neither party disputed the above events. They phoned their insurance companies and filled out the relevant forms. The insurance companies came back and said that the fault was 50:50. Peter was, in my opinion justifiably, pretty miffed with this decision and took the case to court. The judge ruled completely in favour of the lady and said that Peter was 100% at fault. He said that the lady was perfectly entitled to drive around the roundabout in the left hand lane all day long with no signal. He also said that the highway code was just that:- a code. And as such was not legally enforceable. So whilst things like speed limits are written in law advice on which lane to use is just advisory. Make of that what you will but it came as a shock to me.

[staffordian]

Interesting.

My initial reaction was that the lady is 100% to blame.

Whilst the highway code might "only be a code", I'm sure it used to suggest that flaunting a rule could be taken into account in the event of an accident. And how can someone obeying the rules be to blame when someone not doing is blame free?

The judge's comment sounds like tosh to me. How can driving in circles around a roundabout, without signalling, and taking no account of vehicles using the roundabout correctly, including signalling where necessary have carte blanche to hit someone with impunity?

I could perhaps accept minimal blame being attached to Peter for not spotting the potential incident, but I remain to be convinced that the judge was correct.

I'll be interested to hear other views.

Staffordian

[redsturgeon]

I would need some more information, when you say "they hit each other", that generally is not the case. One car will have hit the other one. Perhaps your friend's car hit the side of the woman's car as she was continuing on her merry way around the roundabout? Whose front bumber made contact with which car and where is some significant information that I would want to see.

John

[staffordian]

I would need some more information, when you say "they hit each other", that generally is not the case. One car will have hit the other one. Perhaps your friend's car hit the side of the woman's car as she was continuing on her merry way around the roundabout? Whose front bumber made contact with which car and where is some significant information that I would want to see.

John

Good point.

I'd assumed they were more or less parallel and the front right hand corner of the lady's car hit the left side of Peter's car, but as ever, the devil is in the detail.

Staffordian

[bungeejumper]

Hmmm, on the face of it, it seems to come down to the lady's apparently late decision to turn right rather than go straight ahead. (Hey, we've all been there, sometimes because of poor signposting.) But in that situation, apart from needing to signal (which she didn't), her change of plan also should have put her on extra vigilance for any other road users who actually knew what they were doing.

Still, having said that, I can think of a few roundabouts around these parts where the distinction between "right" and "straight ahead" is pretty debateable for signalling purposes. One in particular, where "right" is probably only 185 degrees (if you see what I mean) - and where "straight ahead" is 120 degrees (i.e. what you or I would probably call a left turn), but hey, it's the way the road always used to go before they put the "durned stupid roundabout" there.

So in most locals' minds it's still "straight ahead" if you're going off at 120 degrees. Whereas those darned offcomers think that straight ahead is 185 degrees and that there is no right turn. The merry sound of outraged hooting and yelling that results is a constant joy. Or not, as the case may be.

Of course, in theory everybody is supposed to signal left before they take their exit. But sometimes I feel like a right old fuddy-duddy for doing that. More than half of the local drivers don't bother.

BJ

[jfgw]

Another factor may be road markings. I notice that some roundabouts now have markings which direct vehicles off to the left. Which driver changed lane? Was the lady simply staying in her own lane while Peter crossed it to get to the exit (and should, therefore, have given way)?

Whilst the highway code might "only be a code", I'm sure it used to suggest that flaunting a rule could be taken into account in the event of an accident. And how can someone obeying the rules be to blame when someone not doing is blame free?

From here, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... troduction ,

Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.

Julian F. G. W.

[DrFfybes]

Another factor may be road markings. I notice that some roundabouts now have markings which direct vehicles off to the left. Which driver changed lane? Was the lady simply staying in her own lane while Peter crossed it to get to the exit (and should, therefore, have given way)?

Julian F. G. W.

Spiral marking have been the norm for quite a while.

Concentric marking do seem to be making a comeback, which IMO is a bad idea as it leads to EXACTLY the situation the OP is describing.

Paul

[PinkDalek]

My friend, Peter, approached a roundabout in the right hand lane to go straight ahead 2nd exit. Lane markings on the approach to the roundabout showed that this was allowed. A lady entered onto the roundabout at the same time as Peter approaching in the same direction using the left hand lane. ...

What markings, if any, were shown in the left hand lane as the Lady approached the roundabout?

[ten0rman]

Actually, Rule 185 in the Highway Code shows that if going straight ahead at a roundabout, one should use the left hand lane, which would suggest that Peter may be at fault even though the lane markings suggest otherwise.

This does remind me of when I was taught to drive: my instructor always insisted that if going straight ahead I should use the offside lane if available, and I believe that advice was in the Highway Code at that time (a long time ago). But as with lots of things, ideas and recommended practices do change and I well remember having to change my ideas on discovering that the Highway Code now suggested the nearside lane.

In any event, m'learned judge is wrong: it is incumbent on all users of the road to be aware that others may make mistakes (not blaming Peter) and to take appropriate defensive action.

I suspect that the insurance companies 50:50 is probably nearer correct because both parties were not paying correct and/or sufficient attention.

ten0rman

[PinkDalek]

Actually, Rule 185 in the Highway Code shows that if going straight ahead at a roundabout, one should use the left hand lane, which would suggest that Peter may be at fault even though the lane markings suggest otherwise. ...

Rule 185 only seems to show that diagrammatically (perhaps that's why you wrote shows rather than says) http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/185

Rule 186 covers intermediate exits in more detail http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/186 including "select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout" and "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout". Perhaps he should have changed to the inside lane before attempting to exit (and signal).

The OP also says:

The judge ruled completely in favour of the lady and said that Peter was 100% at fault. He said that the lady was perfectly entitled to drive around the roundabout in the left hand lane all day long with no signal

Rule 186 states:

"When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout ..."

Wrong judge or judge wrong?

[swill453]

Rule 186 covers intermediate exits in more detail http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/186 including "select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout" and "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout". Perhaps he should have changed to the inside lane before attempting to exit (and signal).

He said he was going into the right lane of what was presumably a 2 lane carriageway. Seems perfectly valid to me.

Scott.

[PinkDalek]

Rule 186 covers intermediate exits in more detail http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/186 including "select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout" and "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout". [RETRACT] Perhaps he should have changed to the inside lane before attempting to exit [/RETRACTED] (and signal).

He said he was going into the right lane of what was presumably a 2 lane carriageway. Seems perfectly valid to me.

Scott.

Even better and, yes, I missed that part. I'll therefore retract my part starting "Perhaps"! I saw someone put a line through some text on here, far too technical for me.

[stooz]

You use the right lane when you can go straight on faster than the traffic in the left.
You suggest he was there alone and the lady joined later.
In which case he started on the wrong lane.

When going to the inside lane to cross over it, to exit. He should have checked it was clear to exit. If not or unsure he should have gone right round and tried again.
A car could have easily have joined from the left exit in the same manner.

As there was room and a lane for a car or bike to fit in, then he was crossing into it, taking that space up.
That makes it his fault.

You should change to the inside lane before the exit and exit if clear.
A lot of people need to react by going round again not carrying on.
A lot of people take the chance the left lane is going to do what they hope, but you are at best going to get 50/50 if they don't.

[Nimrod103]

You use the right lane when you can go straight on faster than the traffic in the left.
You suggest he was there alone and the lady joined later.
In which case he started on the wrong lane.

When going to the inside lane to cross over it, to exit. He should have checked it was clear to exit. If not or unsure he should have gone right round and tried again.
A car could have easily have joined from the left exit in the same manner.

As there was room and a lane for a car or bike to fit in, then he was crossing into it, taking that space up.
That makes it his fault.

You should change to the inside lane before the exit and exit if clear.
A lot of people need to react by going round again not carrying on.
A lot of people take the chance the left lane is going to do what they hope, but you are at best going to get 50/50 if they don't.

If I understand it correctly, your friend and the lady arrived at the roundabout at the same time, he in the outer lane, she in the inner. He presumably knew that the straight on exit was a dual carriageway, and was planning to exit in the outside lane. She cut across his exit, because she decided to continue on the roundabout.
While my initial reaction is to say the judge and the lady were in the wrong, it could be argued that your friend was attempting a somewhat risky overtaking manoeuvre on the roundabout (never a good place) and should have been more careful in completing said manoeuvre relative to surrounding traffic.

[swill453]

You should change to the inside lane before the exit and exit if clear.

That's really not what you should do if, as it seems, there are two lanes entering the roundabout, both marked as valid for going straight ahead, and two exit lanes.

If both vehicles had stuck to the correct lane it would have been fine.

Scott.

[swill453]

While my initial reaction is to say the judge and the lady were in the wrong, it could be argued that your friend was attempting a somewhat risky overtaking manoeuvre on the roundabout (never a good place) and should have been more careful in completing said manoeuvre relative to surrounding traffic.

There's nothing in the OP to say he was overtaking i.e. passing the other car on the roundabout. As far as we know they were simply using different lanes. Any passing could have been safely done before or after the roundabout.

Scott.

[Gaggsy]

Actually, Rule 185 in the Highway Code shows that if going straight ahead at a roundabout, one should use the left hand lane, which would suggest that Peter may be at fault even though the lane markings suggest otherwise. ...

Rule 185 only seems to show that diagrammatically (perhaps that's why you wrote shows rather than says) http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/185

Not sure about that. In the link it says:
[*] watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

That seems to be exactly what Peter didn't do.

[robbelg]

On a stretch of road near me there are three roundabouts in a row.

The first has left lane left only, right lane right and straight ahead.

The second has left lane left and straight ahead, right lane right only.

The third has left lane left and straight ahead, right lane right and straight ahead.( this is the only one with a two lane exit )

These are road markings only and of course if you're not local and traffic is heavy you probably won't see them.

Not really relevant to the OP but a pointer to why you have to be careful on roundabouts.

[PinkDalek]

Actually, Rule 185 in the Highway Code shows that if going straight ahead at a roundabout, one should use the left hand lane, which would suggest that Peter may be at fault even though the lane markings suggest otherwise. ...

Rule 185 only seems to show that diagrammatically (perhaps that's why you wrote shows rather than says) http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/185

Not sure about that. In the link it says:
[*] watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

That seems to be exactly what Peter didn't do.

I'm unsure which part you are unsure about!

My point was that Rule 185 does not say "one should use the left hand lane". The extract you've included may be valid but is a separate matter to the one I queried.

If the OP ever finds his way back to the Topic, it might be of interest if he pointed to the roundabout on Google Maps or similar.

[Nimrod103]

While my initial reaction is to say the judge and the lady were in the wrong, it could be argued that your friend was attempting a somewhat risky overtaking manoeuvre on the roundabout (never a good place) and should have been more careful in completing said manoeuvre relative to surrounding traffic.

There's nothing in the OP to say he was overtaking i.e. passing the other car on the roundabout. As far as we know they were simply using different lanes. Any passing could have been safely done before or after the roundabout.

Scott.

I think you are falling into the trap of supposing that because two lanes go into the roundabout, and two exit opposite, that effectively the roundabout doesn't exist and can be ignored. But the roundabout clearly has two concentric lanes of its own (though they may not be marked out as such - it was wide enough for the two cars to proceed roughly in parallel until they collided). For the friend to travel from the right hand concentric lane to his exit, he has to cross the left hand lane, concurrently occupied by the lady driver. The lady driver (being in the left hand lane on the roundabout) can either exit left or carry on around the roundabout - either way she doesn't have to change or cross another lane, so she has a free choice of direction and has the right of way.

Where I live almost all writing and arrows on lanes have worn away, so I drive with caution everywhere.