The Lemon Fool

I enjoyed yesterday's program, Electric cars what they really mean for you.

However one point that was missed (deliberately?) was that ICE cars can continue to be used after 2030.

They were implying petrol cars stop then. And theres a cliff edge where everyone needs to drive electric. But the 2030 deadline only implies to buying new cars not use of existing.

There's also a 2035 deadline for sale of new hybrids.

So you can buy a hybrid in 2034 and it'll last say 10 years. You're looking at an actual deadline of 2044 by my reckoning.

In addition what wasn't mentioned was the uk contribution to global warming is less than 1%. And the EU has a pledge of 2040 for sale of new electric cars.

And rest of the world ie the big polluters have no pledge! US, China, India, Russia, quite an omission!! Don't you think. Guess to be expected but bbc supposed to be independent and would expect these to be mentioned in passing!

Adamski wrote:However one point that was missed (deliberately?) was that ICE cars can continue to be used after 2030.

They were implying petrol cars stop then. And theres a cliff edge where everyone needs to drive electric. But the 2030 deadline only implies to buying new cars not use of existing.

There's also a 2035 deadline for sale of new hybrids.

So you can buy a hybrid in 2034 and it'll last say 10 years. You're looking at an actual deadline of 2044 by my reckoning.

Sure you can keep on using it, but if your local mayor decides that ICE cars are bad for everyone's health and imposes a £12.50 a day tax on using it, then it might be damned expensive to do so - as those who bought a diesel car and live in London are now finding out.

Then there is the issue of will the manufacturers still be making them by then?

Cars for the UK have to be specifically made for the UK, so even if Europe pushes back the date then will the European manufacturers want to keep making a range of cars right up to the point when they cannot sell them, or will they phase them out in advance. Sure the Far Eastern manufacturers might continue to produce, but your choices as to what ICE to buy might become more limited.

I caught some of the program, and was puzzled by the quoted 2nd hand cost for the 16 Tesla trays of battery each weighing 25kg. Unsure which model, but must have been significant with a battery weight of 400kgs.

The guy said the batteries would be about £1k per tray second hand. So 16k per car. But he didn't say what was anticipated new cost and how frequent (time and/or mileage) the replacements were likely to be required. Odd.

Per MG
"Replacing an electric car battery
On average, electric car batteries last around 10 years, with some lasting up to 20 years, so you shouldn’t be concerned about replacing the battery before you’ve even bought a new car.
Leaving your battery flat and your car out of use could result in the battery pack no longer accepting charge (this is called bricking), but a lot of EVs, including the New MG ZS EV, have systems that prevent the battery fully depleting.

You may find the battery loses its capacity over time. This is natural, and often due to extended use. In the event of a battery fault, consult your warranty first.

So, in answer to the question of how long do electric car batteries last, it is estimated that the batteries should last approximately 10 years."

But i suspect that is a gross oversimplification. If you don't charge your battery to more than 80%, don't use fast chargers, and don't have high mileage, it will last a lot lot longer. That fit's my profile as I only ever charge at home (apart from 2 trop ups in 2 years at Tesco). I don't charge to more than 80% and I do low mileage. I think mine will outlast me!

scrumpyjack wrote:Per MG
"Replacing an electric car battery

Leaving your battery flat and your car out of use could result in the battery pack no longer accepting charge (this is called bricking), but a lot of EVs, including the New MG ZS EV, have systems that prevent the battery fully depleting.

But i suspect that is a gross oversimplification. If you don't charge your battery to more than 80%, don't use fast chargers, and don't have high mileage, it will last a lot lot longer. That fit's my profile as I only ever charge at home (apart from 2 trop ups in 2 years at Tesco). I don't charge to more than 80% and I do low mileage. I think mine will outlast me!

I noticed the same with the Makita and Ryobi lithium batteries that I use for cordless power tools.

I used to try and save money in buying cheaper generic batteries. After about five years I realised it was a false economy. Many generic batteries were killed by letting them go to zero. But the 'real' batteries obviously have a system that stops this and they are still going strong!

Steve

Adamski wrote:However one point that was missed (deliberately?) was that ICE cars can continue to be used after 2030.

They were implying petrol cars stop then. And theres a cliff edge where everyone needs to drive electric. But the 2030 deadline only implies to buying new cars not use of existing.

Indeed. If you buy an ICE vehicle in 2030 (or maybe two!) then you should be good until 2045 or 2050. And by then I will probably be too old to drive anyway.

I think anyone over a certain age can ignore EVs, which is what I intend to do.

Of course if all the petrol stations are converted to charging stations that might be an issue.

Lootman wrote:I think anyone over a certain age can ignore EVs, which is what I intend to do.

For a minority I can see the point of that - those who tow caravans, those who drive from John O'Groats to Lands End regularly, those who are poor.

However for anyone else to simply dismiss - well you don't know what you are missing, as they are far nicer to drive than most ICE.

Lootman wrote:

Adamski wrote:However one point that was missed (deliberately?) was that ICE cars can continue to be used after 2030.

Indeed. If you buy an ICE vehicle in 2030 (or maybe two!) then you should be good until 2045 or 2050. And by then I will probably be too old to drive anyway.

I think anyone over a certain age can ignore EVs, which is what I intend to do.

Me too.

And then there's their predilection for catching fire.
Just wait for the hoohah when one sets light to a ferry.

V8

Saw the programme and noticed a couple of things. Price per kWh of 69p. Sounds expensive to me. And the fact that the presenter popped into the coffee shop while waiting for the car to charge. That's an extra £10-£20 (if you have a family) every 200 miles. Not for me thanks.

Adamski wrote:I enjoyed yesterday's program, Electric cars what they really mean for you.

However one point that was missed (deliberately?) was that ICE cars can continue to be used after 2030.

They were implying petrol cars stop then. And theres a cliff edge where everyone needs to drive electric. But the 2030 deadline only implies to buying new cars not use of existing.

It wasn't missed: Rowlatt specifically said that new petrol and diesel cars would be banned by 2030 -- and he emphasised new -- but went on to say you'd still be able to buy them second hand, so no cliff edge was implied.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0fzlswg/what-they-really-mean-for-you-series-1-1-electric-cars, 10m50s - 11m05s.

Redmires wrote:Saw the programme and noticed a couple of things. Price per kWh of 69p. Sounds expensive to me. And the fact that the presenter popped into the coffee shop while waiting for the car to charge. That's an extra £10-£20 (if you have a family) every 200 miles. Not for me thanks.

My car will be charging this evening and it will be 7.5P per kWh, along with the rest of the house being charged at that rate for six hours, and the 250 mile round trip I did on Monday at motorway speeds used 55kWh, so a cost of £4.12

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to use a public charger in the last year that would charge higher prices.

AF62 wrote:I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to use a public charger in the last year that would charge higher prices.

Presumably you do not do a lot of long-distance trips then?

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to use a public charger in the last year that would charge higher prices.

Presumably you do not do a lot of long-distance trips then?

Depends what you mean by 'long distance' as the car is capable of 300 miles without recharging, so 150 each way, which covers most of my trips. And when visiting relatives at a further distance, as they also have electric cars then there is a quid pro quo in charging there and them doing the same when they visit us.

AF62 wrote: but your choices as to what ICE to buy might become more limited.

I think that's already happening.

Why is it that so many new cars are what's known as SUVs? Bloated in other words. What used to be one of the larger cars on the road such as 1980s or 1990s Volvo Estates look babyish alongside. I could guess that cars have to be 20% bigger in order to find space for batteries. In styling they are just the long standing five door hatch, but larger all round, including the wheels.

Alaric wrote:

AF62 wrote: but your choices as to what ICE to buy might become more limited.

I think that's already happening. Why is it that so many new cars are what's known as SUVs? Bloated in other words. What used to be one of the larger cars on the road such as 1980s or 1990s Volvo Estates look babyish alongside. I could guess that cars have to be 20% bigger in order to find space for batteries. In styling they are just the long standing five door hatch, but larger all round, including the wheels.

The trend towards larger vehicles has nothing to do with EVs in my opinion. It has been a trend long before folks were fooled into thinking that EVs were good for the planet.

Folks just want more space to carry more crap around with them.

Lootman wrote:

Alaric wrote:I think that's already happening. Why is it that so many new cars are what's known as SUVs? Bloated in other words. What used to be one of the larger cars on the road such as 1980s or 1990s Volvo Estates look babyish alongside. I could guess that cars have to be 20% bigger in order to find space for batteries. In styling they are just the long standing five door hatch, but larger all round, including the wheels.

The trend towards larger vehicles has nothing to do with EVs in my opinion. It has been a trend long before folks were fooled into thinking that EVs were good for the planet.

Folks just want more space to carry more crap around with them.

The trend to SUVs has been driven by one-upmanship (particularly amongst women, self-justified by 'safety') because even if you know nothing about cars you can 'see' an SUV is not a car, cheap car finance and leasing, and manufacturers realising that you can sell an SUV for significantly more than the car model on which the SUV is based.

88V8 wrote:And then there's their predilection for catching fire.
Just wait for the hoohah when one sets light to a ferry.

Indeed, today's live issue. 3,000 cars on a transporter, of which 25 are EVs, and one of those cars goes whoosh with such vigour that one crew member is immediately killed and a dozen others jump overboard, such is the ferocity of the blaze.

And now the fire crews have to decide how much water they can afford to slosh onto the cars in the hold before they sink the ship entirely. As happened with another ship last year, I believe?

It's early days, and the crucial details aren't clear yet. There are EV fans protesting that the explosive fire is statistically more likely to have started among the 99% of the cars in the hold that weren't EVs, and others pointing out that ICE cars on their delivery shipments are barely carrying a couple of litres of fuel, so that isn't likely. Somebody I read was claiming that EVs are loaded at the front of a car ferry so that they can be pushed off the ship into the water if they catch fire, but unless I'm mistaken those sorts of bow openings at sea have been out of favour since the Herald of Free Enterprise?

The questions are important, though. Transporting EVs by sea is a bit more challenging than moving ICEs. I imagine some shippers must have got this one covered? Would be interested to read some details.

BJ

AF62 wrote:...and the 250 mile... so a cost of £4.12

So not only do electric cars create more tyre and brake dust per mile, they are cheaper to run so people can afford to do more miles in them.

bungeejumper wrote:Indeed, today's live issue. 3,000 cars on a transporter, of which 25 are EVs...

25 today...

bungeejumper wrote:And now the fire crews have to decide how much water they can afford to slosh onto the cars...

Water onto lithium fires? These ships may need a different fire-fighting system.


Julian F. G. W.

jfgw wrote:

AF62 wrote:...and the 250 mile... so a cost of £4.12

So not only do electric cars create more tyre and brake dust per mile, they are cheaper to run so people can afford to do more miles in them.

Tyres, perhaps because of the extra torque, but extra brake dust from electric cars - no chance.

The brakes on most BEVs are rarely used as the deceleration is created by regenerative braking. Even if you press the brake pedal the car decides whether it applies the brakes to slow you or whether regenerative braking is sufficient, or a combination of both is best.

The lack of use of brakes on BEVs is such an issue that newer models have 'brake cleaning' modes to deliberately activate the brakes occasionally to prevent corrosion build up.

AF62 wrote:

jfgw wrote:So not only do electric cars create more tyre and brake dust per mile, they are cheaper to run so people can afford to do more miles in them.

Tyres, perhaps because of the extra torque, but extra brake dust from electric cars - no chance.

The brakes on most BEVs are rarely used as the deceleration is created by regenerative braking. Even if you press the brake pedal the car decides whether it applies the brakes to slow you or whether regenerative braking is sufficient, or a combination of both is best.

The lack of use of brakes on BEVs is such an issue that newer models have 'brake cleaning' modes to deliberately activate the brakes occasionally to prevent corrosion build up.

Ignoring EV's for a moment, brake issues exist if the friction material doesn't ware out. I recently had an ongoing problem on my IC car with wheels seizing after the brakes were applied that took a few weeks to identify. Lack of use meant that the material hadn't worn and been replaced. Eventually the bond failed (probably due to corrosion) separating the friction material from the metal back plate.

To be honest I am really surprised by some of the posts on this thread. You have experience of driving and using an EV. You have stated that they wouldn't be a good choice for REGULAR long distances, but that you have used expensive chargers upon occasion, presumable when covering longer distances.

What has been the response? Chelsea tractors are the fault of those who push EV's! That clearly you don't have any experience of normal use, because you can get by mostly using home charging. That people will drive more miles, because they pay less to travel!

Can I say that I value your posts about your experiences actually running an EV.