Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Anonymous,bruncher,niord,gvonge,Shelford, for Donating to support the site

The business investment problem

including Budgets
Hallucigenia
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2778
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 3:03 am
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 1854 times

The business investment problem

#526806

Postby Hallucigenia » September 1st, 2022, 1:05 pm

This is excellent from Gilesyb, formerly of this parish :
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... investment

this report warns that a failure to stick to a clear direction and fulfil policy promises is very damaging to businesses whose plans are dependent on government actions. Industrial strategy has been taken up and dropped twice in the past 15 years – a terrible level of volatility when many companies plan investments that endure for decades.

Lavish, tax-focused attempts to induce new investment – such as Liz Truss’s pledge to reduce corporation tax – might prove costly and could do little to encourage business investment. Broader business conditions are far more important than the tax on any eventual profit.

Instead the next prime minister, and their chancellor, should put an end to years of confrontational government behaviour...and seek to create a predictable and stable business environment.


You may prefer the short version on Twitter - the shorter version is that despite low corporation taxes and low interest rates, rates of investment in the UK have remained stuboornly low by comparison with out peers - which in turn helps explain our low productivity, and hence why we are so poor compared to countries that we like to think of as equals.

So if low taxes and low interest rates can't stimulate investment - what can government do? As the above extract says, it's a whole-of-government problem, not just the Treasury acting in isolation, but the single most important thing is just stability.

Image

The OBR thought investment was going to bounce in 2010 and it didn't, then it started to grow until something happened in 2016 to kill off investment.
Image

murraypaul
Lemon Slice
Posts: 785
Joined: April 9th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Has thanked: 225 times
Been thanked: 265 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526841

Postby murraypaul » September 1st, 2022, 3:40 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:The OBR thought investment was going to bounce in 2010 and it didn't, then it started to grow until something happened in 2016 to kill off investment.


"Something".

I can certainly think of something that happened in 2016 that would have made companies less confident in making investments in the UK.

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7389
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1713 times
Been thanked: 3967 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526852

Postby Mike4 » September 1st, 2022, 4:24 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:The OBR thought investment was going to bounce in 2010 and it didn't, then it started to grow until something happened in 2016 to kill off investment.


"Something".

I can certainly think of something that happened in 2016 that would have made companies less confident in making investments in the UK.



Yes but £350m a week EXTRA for the NHS, and "Taking back control". What's not to like!!!

Thank God for... errr... what was it called again?

absolutezero
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1510
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 544 times
Been thanked: 653 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526855

Postby absolutezero » September 1st, 2022, 4:39 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:
Image

The OBR thought investment was going to bounce in 2010 and it didn't, then it started to grow until something happened in 2016 to kill off investment.
Image

Not according to those graphs it didn't.
The graphs don't match the commentary.
All I can see is that their dodgy predictions remained dodgy no matter what. 2016 or any other year you care to randomly choose.

1nvest
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4683
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 1518 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526891

Postby 1nvest » September 1st, 2022, 7:44 pm

Mike4 wrote:
murraypaul wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:The OBR thought investment was going to bounce in 2010 and it didn't, then it started to grow until something happened in 2016 to kill off investment.


"Something".

I can certainly think of something that happened in 2016 that would have made companies less confident in making investments in the UK.



Yes but £350m a week EXTRA for the NHS, and "Taking back control". What's not to like!!!

Thank God for... errr... what was it called again?

In 2008/9 around £100Bn/year was spent on the NHS, by 2019/2020 that had risen to £148Bn. Since Brexit the NHS budget has risen to over £190Bn/year, over £42 billion/year more than pre-Brexit (£191Bn 2020/2021, £190.3Bn 2021/2022) - which is £770m/week.

£350m/week was clearly a gross understatement. Left EU at the end of Jan 2020 and NHS budget for 2019/2020 was £148Bn and had only 350m/week been added to that = £18.2Bn more, £166Bn. Actual 2020/2021 budget was £191Bn.

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1606
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 680 times
Been thanked: 495 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526905

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » September 1st, 2022, 8:58 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:despite low corporation taxes and low interest rates, rates of investment in the UK have remained stuboornly low by comparison with out peers - which in turn helps explain our low productivity, and hence why we are so poor compared to countries that we like to think of as equals.


Average weekly earnings in real terms (adjusted by CPI for July 2022 prices) on a three-month/quarterly average basis are currently back at 2006 levels. The Resolution Foundation projects they will fall further to 2003 levels in 2023-24 (my eyeballing of the chart):

https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/ ... 80/photo/1

:(

Best wishes


Mark.

GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4519
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1642 times
Been thanked: 1647 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526950

Postby GoSeigen » September 2nd, 2022, 8:13 am

absolutezero wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:
Not according to those graphs it didn't.
The graphs don't match the commentary.
All I can see is that their dodgy predictions remained dodgy no matter what. 2016 or any other year you care to randomly choose.


The forecast graph is exactly what I'd expect (apart from March 2011 which is drawn in the wrong place).

Forecasts in general are a trailing indicator so it seems someone somewhere is misinterpreting what is going on.

Meanwhile 2016 was around the time gilt yields dropped practically to zero, and below zero in some cases. How can businesses invest when they anticipate zero long-term returns?

GS

NotSure
Lemon Slice
Posts: 924
Joined: February 5th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Has thanked: 690 times
Been thanked: 316 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526961

Postby NotSure » September 2nd, 2022, 9:00 am

GoSeigen wrote:Meanwhile 2016 was around the time gilt yields dropped practically to zero, and below zero in some cases. How can businesses invest when they anticipate zero long-term returns?

GS


To my small brain, how can they not invest when borrowing is almost free? How do gilt yields predict long term global returns? From what you say, if they hit zero, that's it. No more growth, ever?

GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4519
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1642 times
Been thanked: 1647 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526988

Postby GoSeigen » September 2nd, 2022, 10:08 am

NotSure wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Meanwhile 2016 was around the time gilt yields dropped practically to zero, and below zero in some cases. How can businesses invest when they anticipate zero long-term returns?

GS


To my small brain, how can they not invest when borrowing is almost free? How do gilt yields predict long term global returns? From what you say, if they hit zero, that's it. No more growth, ever?


Perhaps you haven't noticed that risk-free yields are back above 3%?


GS
P.S. Lending rates were zero because no-one wanted to borrow.

NotSure
Lemon Slice
Posts: 924
Joined: February 5th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Has thanked: 690 times
Been thanked: 316 times

Re: The business investment problem

#526996

Postby NotSure » September 2nd, 2022, 10:22 am

GoSeigen wrote:
NotSure wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Meanwhile 2016 was around the time gilt yields dropped practically to zero, and below zero in some cases. How can businesses invest when they anticipate zero long-term returns?

GS


To my small brain, how can they not invest when borrowing is almost free? How do gilt yields predict long term global returns? From what you say, if they hit zero, that's it. No more growth, ever?


Perhaps you haven't noticed that risk-free yields are back above 3%?


GS
P.S. Lending rates were zero because no-one wanted to borrow.


(Genuine) thanks for trying to educate me.

Back then, risk-free yields were basically zero, or -2% real. Now they are about 3%, or -10% real.

I'm just not sure why a company would look at UK gilts (or US equivalent etc.) and decide on that basis that it was a bad time to invest. I would naively assume that if rates were say 10%, they'd think twice (aren't rate increases supposed to suppress demand, not increase it?)

GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4519
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1642 times
Been thanked: 1647 times

Re: The business investment problem

#527010

Postby GoSeigen » September 2nd, 2022, 10:42 am

NotSure wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
NotSure wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Meanwhile 2016 was around the time gilt yields dropped practically to zero, and below zero in some cases. How can businesses invest when they anticipate zero long-term returns?

GS


To my small brain, how can they not invest when borrowing is almost free? How do gilt yields predict long term global returns? From what you say, if they hit zero, that's it. No more growth, ever?


Perhaps you haven't noticed that risk-free yields are back above 3%?


GS
P.S. Lending rates were zero because no-one wanted to borrow.


(Genuine) thanks for trying to educate me.

Back then, risk-free yields were basically zero, or -2% real. Now they are about 3%, or -10% real.

I'm just not sure why a company would look at UK gilts (or US equivalent etc.) and decide on that basis that it was a bad time to invest. I would naively assume that if rates were say 10%, they'd think twice (aren't rate increases supposed to suppress demand, not increase it?)


The whole yield curve is of interest depending on the type of investment and funding involved but essentially, if you are an investor and long-term yields are 1% I don't see that that represents an enticing return on long-term funds. This is maybe why people for a decade or more have been more interested in paying down debt than taking on new debt (for carry or otherwise). I also don't think the yield readjustment has completed yet. 3% on gilts is better than 0, but equities have hardly followed so there is a disconnect and feeling of uncertainty in markets.

For me that means I am gradually taking profit on some higher risk assets and writing options. e.g. I am seeing just 3% spread on some of my riskier fixed interest, which doesn't seem right. I don't really have appetite for more risk right now, less if anything.

GS

NotSure
Lemon Slice
Posts: 924
Joined: February 5th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Has thanked: 690 times
Been thanked: 316 times

Re: The business investment problem

#527012

Postby NotSure » September 2nd, 2022, 10:45 am

GoSeigen wrote:....The whole yield curve is of interest depending on the type of investment and funding involved but essentially, if you are an investor and long-term yields are 1% I don't see that that represents an enticing return on long-term funds....


I would whole-heartedly agree that is the case for individual investors, but this thread is about business investment. Does the above hold for that too?

GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4519
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1642 times
Been thanked: 1647 times

Re: The business investment problem

#527091

Postby GoSeigen » September 2nd, 2022, 1:56 pm

NotSure wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:....The whole yield curve is of interest depending on the type of investment and funding involved but essentially, if you are an investor and long-term yields are 1% I don't see that that represents an enticing return on long-term funds....


I would whole-heartedly agree that is the case for individual investors, but this thread is about business investment. Does the above hold for that too?


Well unless there are narrow dislocations in capital markets I don't see why not. To return to the beginning I was subtly trying to suggest that there may be more than one reason for lack of business investment growth since 2016ish.

GS

1nvest
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4683
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 1518 times

Re: The business investment problem

#527126

Postby 1nvest » September 2nd, 2022, 4:43 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
NotSure wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Meanwhile 2016 was around the time gilt yields dropped practically to zero, and below zero in some cases. How can businesses invest when they anticipate zero long-term returns?

GS


To my small brain, how can they not invest when borrowing is almost free? How do gilt yields predict long term global returns? From what you say, if they hit zero, that's it. No more growth, ever?


Perhaps you haven't noticed that risk-free yields are back above 3%?


GS
P.S. Lending rates were zero because no-one wanted to borrow.

The BoE in printing billions to buy up Gilts - a big buyer in the market, pushed prices higher/yields down. In effect bought up much of the entire Gilt stock available at the time, around £500Bn/worth. Whilst the treasury issued newer Gilts to around twice the value/amount with a longer average maturity and at/around 0% yields. The BoE who bought up the older Gilts, return all interest paid on those Gilts by the treasury - back to the treasury. Japan plays that to even more extremes, pretty much its central bank buys up all Treasuries that are issued. When debts are internal, they're not really a debt, just a capital allocation issue. In effect £500Bn of UK debt paying perhaps 5% and average 15 years to maturity, was swapped for £1000Bn of debt paying 0% and average 25 years to maturity. In the books however that suggest a £1500Bn debt mountain, whereas in practice that is less of a burden, might even be considered a benefit, than the former £500Bn of 5% yielders. (I've used rounded/made-up figures here, the actual figures however are within the same ball-park region).

vand
Lemon Slice
Posts: 834
Joined: January 5th, 2022, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: The business investment problem

#530375

Postby vand » September 17th, 2022, 9:26 am

IMO its largely a consequence of our national obsession with houses. When so much money gets poured into housing and everything is geared towards helping the real estate market there is not much left over for businesses.

The UK's housing stock is valued at 3.8 times its GDP, while the value of its public businesses is around 1 times. People would rather own unproductive houses rather than productive businesses in this country.

Nimrod103
Lemon Half
Posts: 6727
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 1059 times
Been thanked: 2413 times

Re: The business investment problem

#530477

Postby Nimrod103 » September 17th, 2022, 7:01 pm

vand wrote:IMO its largely a consequence of our national obsession with houses. When so much money gets poured into housing and everything is geared towards helping the real estate market there is not much left over for businesses.

The UK's housing stock is valued at 3.8 times its GDP, while the value of its public businesses is around 1 times. People would rather own unproductive houses rather than productive businesses in this country.


For the very good reason that housing a) has proven to be an excellent hedge against Govt debasing the Pound, b) in a country getting more crowded by the day,physical space is ever more at a premium & c) gains are arguably taxed at lower rates than income.

If the Govt maintained the value of the Pound, perhaps tieing it to the Swiss Franc or to Gold, people would not be so interested in investing in houses, but would chose suitable housing for their family size, location, convenience and all the other more relevant features.

vand
Lemon Slice
Posts: 834
Joined: January 5th, 2022, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: The business investment problem

#530530

Postby vand » September 18th, 2022, 9:18 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
vand wrote:IMO its largely a consequence of our national obsession with houses. When so much money gets poured into housing and everything is geared towards helping the real estate market there is not much left over for businesses.

The UK's housing stock is valued at 3.8 times its GDP, while the value of its public businesses is around 1 times. People would rather own unproductive houses rather than productive businesses in this country.


For the very good reason that housing a) has proven to be an excellent hedge against Govt debasing the Pound, b) in a country getting more crowded by the day,physical space is ever more at a premium & c) gains are arguably taxed at lower rates than income.

If the Govt maintained the value of the Pound, perhaps tieing it to the Swiss Franc or to Gold, people would not be so interested in investing in houses, but would chose suitable housing for their family size, location, convenience and all the other more relevant features.



Yes. It's pretty simple - people will respond to economic incentives. There have been many policies down the years to transfer wealth into real estate in this country. That will inevitably result in a crowding out effect for other parts of the economy.

1nvest
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4683
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 1518 times

Re: The business investment problem

#530569

Postby 1nvest » September 18th, 2022, 1:07 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
vand wrote:IMO its largely a consequence of our national obsession with houses. When so much money gets poured into housing and everything is geared towards helping the real estate market there is not much left over for businesses.

The UK's housing stock is valued at 3.8 times its GDP, while the value of its public businesses is around 1 times. People would rather own unproductive houses rather than productive businesses in this country.

For the very good reason that housing a) has proven to be an excellent hedge against Govt debasing the Pound, b) in a country getting more crowded by the day,physical space is ever more at a premium & c) gains are arguably taxed at lower rates than income.

If the Govt maintained the value of the Pound, perhaps tieing it to the Swiss Franc or to Gold, people would not be so interested in investing in houses, but would chose suitable housing for their family size, location, convenience and all the other more relevant features.

Why would investors opt for the UK where its repeated governments have striven to boost nominal GDP - that is easily achieved via net immigration, but unlike the US where it doesn't also strive for GDP/capita expansion/improvement. The 'middle-class' wealth is a key driver/factor, and UK policy has been to hurt such, rather than improving standards of living. When potential investors see how the government repeatedly moves goal posts, raids pensions, ...etc. they naturally look elsewhere, such as the US, Singapore ...etc. I suspect that in having near maximised what the government can milk from savings/pensions/investments that its focus will move on to doing similar to housing such that the UK's relative decline will continue on down deeper yet.

Not grabbing some of exceptional gas price based energy firms profits to instead counter those with UK debt expansion is just another example of very poor UK governance. A great opportunity instead turned around to being a cost (lower priced UK gas sourcing UK customers/businesses is a great opportunity for the UK to become more competitive, when instead UK customers/businesses pay the same or more than others then as energy is a base/primary factor in costs so the UK will remain just as competitive if not even less competitive than others who did take some of energy firms excessive profits rather than borrowing to fund them).

China, US, EU ...etc plan for decades ahead, UK governments are only interested in up to 5 years periods, and are easily/often directed by businesses (such as energy firms) rather than the electorate. Nor does the UK learn from history, take the 1918 flu pandemic and 2020 Covid didn't have any plans prepared, just winged it. The next pandemic could be far far more devastating and I suspect the UK's response will again be to just wing it (such as hoping for herd immunity).

The Swiss Franc/Gold were pegged, until the new millennium, a reason why the Swiss Franc remained relatively strong. In effect one-and-same. The UK can't afford to peg the Pound to that without significant change in its present 650 kings/queens MP/Parliamentary system, and in the absence of such change will naturally see continued relative decline of the Pound (net deficit, borrowing to address issues rather than focusing upon core/root factors, servicing business greed over social/business balance).

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7389
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1713 times
Been thanked: 3967 times

Re: The business investment problem

#530579

Postby Mike4 » September 18th, 2022, 1:38 pm

1nvest wrote:Why would investors opt for the UK where its repeated governments have striven to boost nominal GDP - that is easily achieved via net immigration, but unlike the US where it doesn't also strive for GDP/capita expansion/improvement.



It has always struck me as odd how successive governments encouraged immigration in the face of resistance from a proportion of the population, worried about 'overpopulation'.

But as you put it, growing the GDP is seen as a Good Thing and most easily achieved simply by getting more economically active people to come live here.

So what politician in his or her right mind would want to limit immigration? "Lets have more people to boss around and collect tax from" makes perfect sense to pretty much any politician of any colour, I reckon.

xeny
Lemon Slice
Posts: 453
Joined: April 13th, 2017, 11:37 am
Has thanked: 241 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: The business investment problem

#530584

Postby xeny » September 18th, 2022, 2:42 pm

Mike4 wrote:So what politician in his or her right mind would want to limit immigration? "Lets have more people to boss around and collect tax from" makes perfect sense to pretty much any politician of any colour, I reckon.


Not if it peeves enough of the electorate that you don't remain in power. Also, depending on the economic output of the average immigrant, you may end up with a decrease in per capita GDP, which makes life harder for the chancellor, and if is too obvious to the electorate may also reduce your chances of staying in power.


Return to “The Economy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests