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Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

including Budgets
DrFfybes
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Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545446

Postby DrFfybes » November 10th, 2022, 12:54 pm

From the BBC....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63573989

A group of economists has questioned UK assertions that a "black hole" in the public finances will need to be filled with austerity measures and tax rises.

The Progressive Economy Forum, which campaigns to end austerity, said the £50bn "hole" disappears entirely if the debts are calculated differently.

The government previously used a different measure of debt, returning to that would leave £14bn spare, they say.


Oh, well, that's OK then. And there was me thinking there was a problem with the economy.

Arborbridge
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Re: Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545448

Postby Arborbridge » November 10th, 2022, 12:58 pm

DrFfybes wrote:From the BBC....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63573989

A group of economists has questioned UK assertions that a "black hole" in the public finances will need to be filled with austerity measures and tax rises.

The Progressive Economy Forum, which campaigns to end austerity, said the £50bn "hole" disappears entirely if the debts are calculated differently.

The government previously used a different measure of debt, returning to that would leave £14bn spare, they say.


Oh, well, that's OK then. And there was me thinking there was a problem with the economy.


I do hope this isn't just another opportunity to knock the BBC for reporting something some group or other may not like :lol:

Arb.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545472

Postby Urbandreamer » November 10th, 2022, 2:10 pm

Arborbridge wrote:I do hope this isn't just another opportunity to knock the BBC for reporting something some group or other may not like :lol:

Arb.


Well, if you follow the link, you find this line.

If the economy grows faster or the time frame changes, the "hole" can shrink or grow dramatically, the economists said - far more than it would because of spending cuts or tax rises.


"Accounting for growth" anyone?

Many, including the BOE, are not predicting growth, but decline.

terminal7
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Re: Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545483

Postby terminal7 » November 10th, 2022, 2:42 pm

Just had a look at the Progressive Economy Forum site. Though the Forum claims to be non-aligned politically, I would suggest that the majority of its 25 or so Council Members are on the left of the spectrum. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - but the 'disappearing' black hole analysis reminds me of the old joke of a lost foreign tourist stopping by the side of the road just outside Galway and asking a local how to get to Dublin and being told that if I was you, I wouldn't start from here.

T7

modellingman
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Re: Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545500

Postby modellingman » November 10th, 2022, 3:34 pm

The paper that the BBC is reporting from can be downloaded from the Progressive Economy Forum's website. https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/pub ... lack-hole/

Here's the Executive Summary:

Media reporting of the economy and choices facing the new Prime Minister and Chancellor has focused on a supposed ‘black hole’ in the public finances, typically given as being around £50bn in five years’ time. This has been presented as an urgent priority for government to
fix, and both the Chancellor and Prime Minister have stressed that a return to austerity and spending cuts is now needed.

Yet this fiscal ‘hole’ is the product of forecasts produced by economic models and the government’s own fiscal rules. Its size depends on how much we think the economy will grow, what interest rate the government must pay on its borrowing, and the target for the
size of the government’s debt relative to the size of the whole economy (the ‘debt to GDP ratio’).

This means that the so-called fiscal ‘hole’ is not an objective statement of economic fact in the same way that, for example, estimates of current inflation and wage rises are. It is dangerously misleading to present it as if it was.

Forecasts from economic models are highly uncertain, but this uncertainty is not being reported properly. The rate of future economic growth, the level of future interest rates, and the nature of the fiscal target will dramatically alter the size of the so-called fiscal ‘hole’.

Using the Office for Budget Responsibility’s own forecasts, we show that estimates of the fiscal ‘hole’ are highly sensitive to small changes in future growth rates or interest rates. Remarkably, using these forecasts, a ‘black hole’ as large as £50bn could be eliminated
simply by reverting to the official measure of public debt used 18 months ago, and even £14bn of extra spending would not bring it back.


Specifically, the government used to target the public sector net debt including the Bank of England but changed this to the public sector net debt excluding the Bank of England at the beginning of this year. This small change has a huge impact on whether the government’s
target is hit – far bigger than any actual policy changes. Including the Bank of England in the government’s target, for instance, means that the targeted measure of debt would be forecast to fall by around £64bn in five years’ time – easily more than the so-called ‘black hole’, and
more than the current round of cuts and tax rises being trailed in advance of the Autumn statement.

Pushing spending cuts to chase a target that is highly uncertain and affected by factors over which the government has very limited control is bad economic policy, made at high cost with limited chance of success.

Any fiscal difficulties that the government currently faces have little to do with control of departmental spending, investment, or taxation. Instead, they are based on arbitrary targets, and contingent on projected borrowing costs and growth rates which are both subject to significant levels of uncertainty.

It makes no sense to pre-empt any potential increases in borrowing costs with a return to austerity. We do not know what the cost of government borrowing will be.
We do not know what nominal GDP will be. We do, however, know all too well what the cost of austerity would be.


A rational policy response at this point in time would be a cautious, ‘wait and see’ approach. Spending should not be cut, while taxes on higher earnings and income from wealth could reasonably be increased to cover any further increases in borrowing costs if they occur. For
an interactive tool to explore these options, see https://arunadvani.com/taxreform.html.


(The emphases in bold are by the paper's authors, not me.)

The main body of paper runs to about 10 pages of A4, with, from an initial glance, about a quarter of that space occupied by charts and tables. It looks well-written from a readability perspective. I may post more when I have had a more thorough look.

terminal7 wrote:Just had a look at the Progressive Economy Forum site. Though the Forum claims to be non-aligned politically, I would suggest that the majority of its 25 or so Council Members are on the left of the spectrum. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - but the 'disappearing' black hole analysis reminds me of the old joke of a lost foreign tourist stopping by the side of the road just outside Galway and asking a local how to get to Dublin and being told that if I was you, I wouldn't start from here.

T7


From the end of the paper:

About PEF
The Progressive Economy Forum (PEF) was founded and launched in May 2018. It brings together a Council of distinguished economists and academics to develop a progressive and sustainable macroeconomic programme and to foster wider public engagement with economics. It opposes and seeks to replace the current dominant economic narrative based on austerity.


modellingman

dealtn
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Re: Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545534

Postby dealtn » November 10th, 2022, 4:52 pm

terminal7 wrote:Just had a look at the Progressive Economy Forum site. Though the Forum claims to be non-aligned politically, I would suggest that the majority of its 25 or so Council Members are on the left of the spectrum. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - but the 'disappearing' black hole analysis reminds me of the old joke of a lost foreign tourist stopping by the side of the road just outside Galway and asking a local how to get to Dublin and being told that if I was you, I wouldn't start from here.

T7


I think

We argue that uncertain fiscal projections cannot be used to justify a return to austerity. The
government would be better advised to completely reverse the mini-budget, stick to its
current spending plans, and respond to any increases in borrowing costs – if they materialise
– with taxation on higher earners and the wealthy.


tells you all you need to know on whereabouts on the spectrum they sit politically.

I'm not a great fan of general criticism along the lines of "the model has a lot of volatility in it - so the answer is to ignore it (or cherry pick the best outcomes within that volatility that suit my agenda)"

BullDog
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Re: Lies, Damn lies, and Economics

#545540

Postby BullDog » November 10th, 2022, 5:00 pm

There's a very high degree of expectation management presently. More than usual. Given a general election is two years away it pays them to display maximum gloom right now. Then, just before the election is called, things turn out not to be quite so bad after all. We are then all supposed to be grateful and re elect the current crop of *********** back in to government.

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Edited to remove expletives


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