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It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

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Dod101
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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#618664

Postby Dod101 » October 3rd, 2023, 7:42 pm

rhys wrote:
I’d like to hear you’re opinion, not on your political affinity, but how you think we can start thinking like an emerging market.


I worked in Beirut for three years during the 90s. Lebanon is a small country, created out of a greater Syria at the end of WW1 by a Christian majority amongst Moslems and Druze. Beirut became a financial hub during the 50s, gaining the moniker "Switzerland of the Middle East".

Demographic changes led to the Moslem population outbreeding the Christians, and this was augmented by a Palestinian refugee influx. Homogeneity of religion has decreased, and in the Middle East, secularity does not exist. YOu are what your father was. An increasingly disgruntled section of the population that had not prospered from trade and finance, as well as a disenfranchised Palestinian element, led to a civil war in 1976, that was eventually settled by Saudi influence in 1990. The result has been catastrophic for the economy. During the 70s, 1LBP purchased 1GBP. Today 1GBP purchases approximately LBP120000. That financial hub moved to Dubai.

A Lebanon without any mineral resources to exploit now struggles to feed a much larger population. Its run by an oligarchy, there's an evident super rich class, cash stashed abroad and an underclass that struggles to survive. The middle class has been eviscerated. It emigrated or withered.

I'm finally coming to the point. This was a leading country that has fallen back to EM status. But it survives because its people have never had a state safety net to provide for them. Kids value education. Young graduates continue to study in their spare time for second and third degrees. Street crime hardly exists since its shameful (although Syrian refugees have led to an increase), and in anycase, the youths are at home doing as much homework as they can find. There's a highly developed sense of self preservation and everyone's a grafter or a trader. Not to do so would mean being left behind. I don't see that the indigenous British population has the initiative to survive in an environment where life is tough, since we've had it easy. The immigrants, by comparison, know how to get on. The entitled days of Empire are long gone, it's perhaps time to compete on an equal footing with the world's footloose.


I think you are exactly on the money. Your final paragraph describes Hong Kong for most of my 23 years there. The population was made up mostly of refugees from ‘over the border’ and as I think I have already said somewhere, the average Chinese attitude in these days, from a coolie probably working for 12 hours a day, when he saw a ‘fat cat’ being driven in a Rolls Royce was ‘One day that will be me’. No envy just ambition. No welfare, although eventually there was basic (very basic) public housing. Work or starve. The guys in my office were not that well paid but they were not poor and in fact mostly seemed to have plenty of spare cash. Taxes were very low both for individuals and companies which left plenty of room for charity in the best sense.

In the UK today there is far too much welfare so that people do not have to work if they do not want as the State will provide. Any government here nowadays would be regarded as socialist by the standards of pre Second World War I would think, although even my memory does not go back that far!

We need a reforming government which of course we will not get because it would be committing political suicide.

Dod

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#618670

Postby Tedx » October 3rd, 2023, 8:14 pm

But how do we get there? Do we just cut all the benefits and let people either work or starve?

What if there's not any work to be had?

Do we have a transition period?

There is an idea been touted and that''s a job guarantee scheme - so yes, you would either have to work or starve, but there government always makes sure there is the option - so no more free money. Gawd knows there is enough needing done around the place and the purpose of work lifts a person. Lifts a community. And perhaps more private enterprise will start to spring up leading to more people leaving the JGS. Rather than having a buffer of unemployed people, you'd have a buffer of employed people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#618675

Postby NotSure » October 3rd, 2023, 9:22 pm


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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#618678

Postby NotSure » October 3rd, 2023, 9:39 pm

Having an economic safety net encourages struggling Americans to become entrepreneurs, study says

Is it a hand up or a hand out?

Historically, much of the public debate about the nation’s social safety net has centered on its efficacy or its cost to taxpayers. There’s been a strong, widely held presumption that such programs are burdensome charities that encourage laziness and yield little economic benefit to society.

Gareth Olds, 29, an assistant professor who studies labor economics in Harvard Business School’s (HBS) entrepreneurial management unit, had good reason to suspect that perception was off the mark, but found almost no existing research to confirm or contradict his hunch.

“There’s already good evidence that income support and public programs do return investments for a society independent of any kind of moral claim that they have,” he said. “They’re good economic bets. Similar studies have been done on public education, and yet it’s something we continue to cut and cut and cut.”......



https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/07/public-programs-are-good-economic-bets/

Or maybe we should pursue the sub-Saharan Africa model? Of course no solution is perfect and can be open to abuse, but overall, more successful entrepreneurs tend to have the benefit of a safety net, be it social security, or simply rich parents.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629482

Postby XFool » November 23rd, 2023, 4:51 pm

NotSure wrote:
Having an economic safety net encourages struggling Americans to become entrepreneurs, study says

Is it a hand up or a hand out?

Historically, much of the public debate about the nation’s social safety net has centered on its efficacy or its cost to taxpayers. There’s been a strong, widely held presumption that such programs are burdensome charities that encourage laziness and yield little economic benefit to society.

Gareth Olds, 29, an assistant professor who studies labor economics in Harvard Business School’s (HBS) entrepreneurial management unit, had good reason to suspect that perception was off the mark, but found almost no existing research to confirm or contradict his hunch.

“There’s already good evidence that income support and public programs do return investments for a society independent of any kind of moral claim that they have,” he said. “They’re good economic bets. Similar studies have been done on public education, and yet it’s something we continue to cut and cut and cut.”......

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/07/public-programs-are-good-economic-bets/

Or maybe we should pursue the sub-Saharan Africa model? Of course no solution is perfect and can be open to abuse, but overall, more successful entrepreneurs tend to have the benefit of a safety net, be it social security, or simply rich parents.

Where did the Internet 'come from' ?

If you think it came from private enterprise - Microsoft etc. - you'd be wrong.

But, stuff like this will never be accepted by the "private enterprise Good, public service Bad" brigade.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629507

Postby scrumpyjack » November 23rd, 2023, 5:54 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
XFool wrote:This paragraph seems to sum the issue up:

"The party need not ever be universally loved. It must, however, have broad enough appeal to be able to win elections. It cannot simply become the political wing of the boomer-Facebook-complex. Nor can it become beholden to a narrow seam of angry reactionaries who simply seek to rail at the modern world."


The UK has finally fallen into the trap expressed by the saying "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul". With so many dependent on the state for an income (direct welfare, in work support, pensions and the colossal number employed by the state doing jobs which don't need to be done), those who are genuinely financially supporting the state feel under seige. Why work when so many don't need to?

Work, productivity, ingenuity, study, skills, industry, self reliance - all need adequate reward so that they are encouraged. At present they are not.


and if there are more Pauls than Peters, they have an inbuilt electoral majority. But when a lot of Peters just give up and leave the country ... :D

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629529

Postby MuddyBoots » November 23rd, 2023, 7:02 pm

There already are areas of the UK which are trying to be re-emerging markets, to coin a phrase. Places which used to rely on manufacturing, heavy industries and mining which were offshored from the Thatcher times onward. There's been plenty of attempts to develop them, the latest of which is Levelling Up, and we can see how difficult it is, even within the borders of a Union with some developed market regions and some funding available.

That's one difference we have to the mainstream emerging markets; another one is corruption. Looking at the corruption index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruptio ... ions_Index
just by eye there's a correlation between developmental level and corruption.

So it's not a simple matter of thinking more like emerging markets in a a blanket way, but of learning what we can from them. The other day I had a slightly radical idea that now we're out of the EU and looking for trade agreements, why not look into joining BRICS? We could get benefits of belonging to a trade block without all the encroaching federalism like open borders and supreme courts; retaining our sovereignty in other words. Like we thought we were getting when we joined the Common Market.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629536

Postby dealtn » November 23rd, 2023, 7:15 pm

XFool wrote:Where did the Internet 'come from' ?

If you think it came from private enterprise - Microsoft etc. - you'd be wrong.



Well I think that will depend on at what point it is defined that the "internet" became the internet. Its origins are certainly within the military and education sectors, but without that private enterprise you decry it wouldn't be the internet we see today and used by nearly everyone.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629584

Postby XFool » November 23rd, 2023, 10:47 pm

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:Where did the Internet 'come from' ?

If you think it came from private enterprise - Microsoft etc. - you'd be wrong.

Well I think that will depend on at what point it is defined that the "internet" became the internet. Its origins are certainly within the military and education sectors, but without that private enterprise you decry it wouldn't be the internet we see today and used by nearly everyone.

So the Internet we know today came about via a mixture of public and private enterprise? Exactly. Same can be said of many other technologies.

But, as I said... this will never be accepted by the "private enterprise Good, public service Bad" brigade.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629586

Postby XFool » November 23rd, 2023, 10:53 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:
Lootman wrote:I did not realise that anyone on this site would ever describe wealth as being " grotesque". I thought this was a site for people who thought that wealth is good and desirable?

I'm not surprised. It's increasingly par for the course to find anti-wealth posts on TLF. The more TLF turns into a politics and current affairs website (with a sideline in investment and personal finance), the more likely we're going to get the sorts of post which you'd expect to see as comments to an article in The Guardian slagging off "the rich".

Oh, here we go... :roll:

We've heard it all before (too many times)

SalvorHardin wrote:This isn't new. Back in the heydays of TMF, particularly in 2007, there was a lot of animosity directed against those of us who had made "loadsamoney" in small oil explorers, notably Soco International (shares peaked around £24, lots of us got in at well below £1 and there was a lot of buying around 250p after a big discovery in offshore Vietnam).

Several key posters were driven off TMF by jealous types gaming the system by persistently reporting their posts and whining to the moderators after deliberately antagonising them.

I remember the furore caused when some of us in response started saying how much we had made on Soco to wind up the envious saddos. In some cases enough to buy a house, with no need for a mortgage, and have enough left over to retire earlier than typical early retirement age. Envy central or what!

QED.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629588

Postby servodude » November 23rd, 2023, 10:58 pm

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:Where did the Internet 'come from' ?

If you think it came from private enterprise - Microsoft etc. - you'd be wrong.



Well I think that will depend on at what point it is defined that the "internet" became the internet. Its origins are certainly within the military and education sectors, but without that private enterprise you decry it wouldn't be the internet we see today and used by nearly everyone.


OK can one define the point the internet becomes the internet for the purposes of the point you are making?

Leaving aside the protocol layer, you could take the creation of the WWW?
Which I would consider still within the bailywick of ARPANET and JANET at the time, and for a good while after.

Global Network Navigator from OReilly is often considered to be the very first commercial website (selling adds along with technical and academic books) and that was launched around the time of the "eternal September" (of 1993). I'd say that was put on the internet, i.e. the internet was already there; and was being used by all sorts of people. You could play DOOM, send files, live text chat over it by then. But it represented a shift in that they were making money from it (albeit money from the technical and academic sectors).

Or would we be aiming for some more handwavey concept of the "internet" defined by a critical mass of users? Which I would consider "Users" using a system that had not changed since it was delivered by the academic and military sectors.

It's not an unusual model - loads of proper academic stuff in science, computing or engineering results in spinning off commercial enterprises (or making their IP public so that it might be used)
- i just find it weird that one might then go and claim the credit for something that we all understand they didn't do (actually it's not that weird at all, we see it often... perhaps I mean depressingly disingenuous)

Anyways notwitstanding that I am interested in when you (and that's an open "you" to anyone) think the "internet' became the internet?

-sd

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629662

Postby ursaminortaur » November 24th, 2023, 10:13 am

servodude wrote:
dealtn wrote:
Well I think that will depend on at what point it is defined that the "internet" became the internet. Its origins are certainly within the military and education sectors, but without that private enterprise you decry it wouldn't be the internet we see today and used by nearly everyone.


OK can one define the point the internet becomes the internet for the purposes of the point you are making?

Leaving aside the protocol layer, you could take the creation of the WWW?
Which I would consider still within the bailywick of ARPANET and JANET at the time, and for a good while after.

Global Network Navigator from OReilly is often considered to be the very first commercial website (selling adds along with technical and academic books) and that was launched around the time of the "eternal September" (of 1993). I'd say that was put on the internet, i.e. the internet was already there; and was being used by all sorts of people. You could play DOOM, send files, live text chat over it by then. But it represented a shift in that they were making money from it (albeit money from the technical and academic sectors).

Or would we be aiming for some more handwavey concept of the "internet" defined by a critical mass of users? Which I would consider "Users" using a system that had not changed since it was delivered by the academic and military sectors.

It's not an unusual model - loads of proper academic stuff in science, computing or engineering results in spinning off commercial enterprises (or making their IP public so that it might be used)
- i just find it weird that one might then go and claim the credit for something that we all understand they didn't do (actually it's not that weird at all, we see it often... perhaps I mean depressingly disingenuous)

Anyways notwitstanding that I am interested in when you (and that's an open "you" to anyone) think the "internet' became the internet?

-sd


Online service providers such as CompuServ and AOL began offering limited connectivity to the internet in the 1980s with ISPs offering direct internet connections via dialup in 1989.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_service_provider

During the 1980s, online service providers such as CompuServe, Prodigy, and America Online (AOL) began to offer limited capabilities to access the Internet, such as e-mail interchange, but full access to the Internet was not readily available to the general public.

In 1989, the first Internet service providers, companies offering the public direct access to the Internet for a monthly fee, were established in Australia[4] and the United States. In Brookline, Massachusetts, The World became the first commercial ISP in the US. Its first customer was served in November 1989.[5] These companies generally offered dial-up connections, using the public telephone network to provide last-mile connections to their customers. The barriers to entry for dial-up ISPs were low and many providers emerged.


Apart from the telephone companies which provided the physical lines and computer companies that provided the first routers and end-point computers these online service providers and ISPs were probably the first to make commercial profit from the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzball_router

Fuzzball routers were the first modern routers on the Internet.[1] They were DEC PDP-11 computers (usually LSI-11 personal workstations) loaded with the Fuzzball software written by David L. Mills (of the University of Delaware).[2][3] The name "Fuzzball" was the colloquialism for Mills's routing software. The software evolved from the Distributed Computer Network (DCN) that started at the University of Maryland in 1973.[3][4] It acquired the nickname sometime after it was rewritten in 1977.[3]

Six Fuzzball routers provided the routing backbone of the first 56 kbit/s NSFNET,[5][6] allowing the testing of many of the Internet's first protocols.[7] It allowed the development of the first TCP/IP routing protocols,[8] and the Network Time Protocol.[9] They were the first routers to implement key refinements to TCP/IP such as variable-length subnet masks.[10]



Up until 1994 though actual commerce conducted over the internet was severely restricted since although the world wide web with its basic protocols had been created in 1990 those protocols were not secure. This changed in 1994 with Netscape's launch of its https (http over ssl) equipped browser and the adoption of https by webservers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPS

Netscape Communications created HTTPS in 1994 for its Netscape Navigator web browser.[48] Originally, HTTPS was used with the SSL protocol. As SSL evolved into Transport Layer Security (TLS), HTTPS was formally specified by RFC 2818 in May 2000. Google announced in February 2018 that its Chrome browser would mark HTTP sites as "Not Secure" after July 2018.[49] This move was to encourage website owners to implement HTTPS, as an effort to make the World Wide Web more secure.



(The official birthdate of the internet is 1 January 1983 when the preceding networks which had been developing since the 1960s adopted TCP/IP.

https://www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/unit07/internet07_02.phtml

The Internet started in the 1960s as a way for government researchers to share information. Computers in the '60s were large and immobile and in order to make use of information stored in any one computer, one had to either travel to the site of the computer or have magnetic computer tapes sent through the conventional postal system.

Another catalyst in the formation of the Internet was the heating up of the Cold War. The Soviet Union's launch of the Sputnik satellite spurred the U.S. Defense Department to consider ways information could still be disseminated even after a nuclear attack. This eventually led to the formation of the ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency Network), the network that ultimately evolved into what we now know as the Internet. ARPANET was a great success but membership was limited to certain academic and research organizations who had contracts with the Defense Department. In response to this, other networks were created to provide information sharing.

January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet. Prior to this, the various computer networks did not have a standard way to communicate with each other. A new communications protocol was established called Transfer Control Protocol/Internetwork Protocol (TCP/IP). This allowed different kinds of computers on different networks to "talk" to each other. ARPANET and the Defense Data Network officially changed to the TCP/IP standard on January 1, 1983, hence the birth of the Internet. All networks could now be connected by a universal language.


)

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629684

Postby servodude » November 24th, 2023, 12:41 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:The official birthdate of the internet is 1 January 1983 when the preceding networks which had been developing since the 1960s adopted TCP/IP.


Yeah that stuff is on the record and without question - which is why I put in the "leaving aside the protocol layer"

I think it's an interesting idea to see when folk think "the Internet" started; I can see (and remember) the impact of AOL being a shift in public perception/awareness

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629687

Postby Tedx » November 24th, 2023, 12:50 pm

From humble beginnings to....:

Image

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629688

Postby servodude » November 24th, 2023, 1:00 pm

Tedx wrote:From humble beginnings to....:

Image


"used to be from Iran"?

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629691

Postby Tedx » November 24th, 2023, 1:13 pm

servodude wrote:
Tedx wrote:From humble beginnings to....:

Image


"used to be from Iran"?


'You really know your way around that area'

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629696

Postby tjh290633 » November 24th, 2023, 1:40 pm

When did Telecom Gold start? I was using that in the mid 80s, if not earlier. Wikipedia tells me 1982.

TJH

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629702

Postby ReformedCharacter » November 24th, 2023, 1:53 pm

servodude wrote:
I think it's an interesting idea to see when folk think "the Internet" started; I can see (and remember) the impact of AOL being a shift in public perception/awareness

Technically minded friends connecting their parents' phones with an acoustic coupler to use bulletin boards, must have been the early 80's. Online banking, I think Bank of Scotland were early providers, which is why I now have a BoS account, late 80's. At work, an Amstrad PC clone with 'integrated software' (Smartware) which included comms. Used with a 1200 bps modem and a subscription to a service (I've forgotten the name, unfortunately) which provided a gateway to other services, such as sending text to a fax. I used one service to do typesetting, read manual and select font, spacing etc. and 'upload' to provider. The high quality output was returned by post and one hoped one hadn't made a formatting error because you would only know when you opened the post :) That must have been late 80's.

RC

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629708

Postby Lootman » November 24th, 2023, 2:10 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
servodude wrote:I think it's an interesting idea to see when folk think "the Internet" started; I can see (and remember) the impact of AOL being a shift in public perception/awareness

Technically minded friends connecting their parents' phones with an acoustic coupler to use bulletin boards, must have been the early 80's. Online banking, I think Bank of Scotland were early providers, which is why I now have a BoS account, late 80's. At work, an Amstrad PC clone with 'integrated software' (Smartware) which included comms. Used with a 1200 bps modem and a subscription to a service (I've forgotten the name, unfortunately) which provided a gateway to other services, such as sending text to a fax. I used one service to do typesetting, read manual and select font, spacing etc. and 'upload' to provider. The high quality output was returned by post and one hoped one hadn't made a formatting error because you would only know when you opened the post :) That must have been late 80's.

I started using the internet in 1996.

The origins of the internet might have been in the government/military but it only became usable by the average person with the advent of stuff developed by the private sector. So for example Netscape, Amazon, Google and various email providers can all be traced back to the mid-1990s. And by the late 1990s we had a full-on dotcom boom and bubble.

So unless you were a techie, the internet started with an explosion of private sector companies in the mid-1990s making it usable and valuable to the average non-techie.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629710

Postby Tedx » November 24th, 2023, 2:18 pm

I think I was 1997. A free America Online 1 month disk from the cover of a magazine opened a window into a new world. Until the missus needed to use the phone.

I remember bodging along using free disks and trials until Freeserve came along.


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