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Wealth tax and the rich

including Budgets
XFool
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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654297

Postby XFool » March 18th, 2024, 12:17 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Lootman wrote:As for Birmingham have you seen the lavish scale of its new public library? I walked by it a few weeks ago. It makes Louis 14th's follies look modest and understated in comparison.

You're kidding surely. A lavish new public library now, when the internet has made such things broadly redundant? Now wonder they are in deep doo-doo.

The Library of Birmingham opened on 3 September 2013.

Mike4 wrote:But developing the theme, as a skool kid I never quite understood why we had free public libraries. Even as a 12 year old it struck me as profligate and unnecessary. Yes they were jolly handy but why should they be provided free by the council?

Because in those days (as in Victorian times) people believed in things and also in the future?

After 14 years of Conservative government we know better now, huh?

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654301

Postby Mike4 » March 18th, 2024, 12:32 pm

XFool wrote:Because in those days (as in Victorian times) people believed in things and also in the future?


So all things we believe in and are the future, should be free?

You're really not convincing me!

:D

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654304

Postby spasmodicus » March 18th, 2024, 12:37 pm

You're kidding surely. A lavish new public library now, when the internet has made such things broadly redundant? Now wonder they are in deep doo-doo.


Redundant - maybe. But the idea that the internet is a "free" replacement for "expensive" public libraries is manifestly false. One way or another, you are paying for this "free" information through mobile phone/computer hardware that has to be regularly upgraded, through your internet and phone service provider's fees, you extra electricity bills and, of course, implicitly by the fact that you are handing over all your personal information for free to Facebook/Google so that they can bombard you and others with advertising. Let's not start on the question of the reliability of the information garnered from the internet.
S

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654306

Postby Lootman » March 18th, 2024, 12:43 pm

spasmodicus wrote:
You're kidding surely. A lavish new public library now, when the internet has made such things broadly redundant? Now wonder they are in deep doo-doo.

Redundant - maybe. But the idea that the internet is a "free" replacement for "expensive" public libraries is manifestly false. One way or another, you are paying for this "free" information through mobile phone/computer hardware that has to be regularly upgraded, through your internet and phone service provider's fees, you extra electricity bills and, of course, implicitly by the fact that you are handing over all your personal information for free to Facebook/Google so that they can bombard you and others with advertising. Let's not start on the question of the reliability of the information garnered from the internet.

But that is a choice. Paying for public libraries is not. Change them to a subscription model, or just close them down. The homeless can find somewhere else to shelter from the rain.

XFool
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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654312

Postby XFool » March 18th, 2024, 1:05 pm

Mike4 wrote:
XFool wrote:Because in those days (as in Victorian times) people believed in things and also in the future?

So all things we believe in and are the future, should be free?

Another strawman?

Perhaps, if Oscar Wilde were alive to day, he would say: 'What is a Conservative? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.'

Mike4 wrote:You're really not convincing me!

You're not convincing me!

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654359

Postby Mike4 » March 18th, 2024, 5:10 pm

XFool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:So all things we believe in and are the future, should be free?

Another strawman?

Perhaps, if Oscar Wilde were alive to day, he would say: 'What is a Conservative? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.'

Mike4 wrote:You're really not convincing me!

You're not convincing me!


I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're the one asserting that libraries should be free for reasons I'm still not clear about.

XFool
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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654368

Postby XFool » March 18th, 2024, 5:28 pm

Mike4 wrote:
XFool wrote:You're not convincing me!

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're the one asserting that libraries should be free for reasons I'm still not clear about.

I am not specifically asserting anything about libraries! (Apart from pointing out others misconstructions)

Rather I am not an adherent of the "Let's close everything down" 'philosophy'. Seemingly so close to the heart of modern Conservatism. (Ironically!)

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654378

Postby scrumpyjack » March 18th, 2024, 5:54 pm

XFool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're the one asserting that libraries should be free for reasons I'm still not clear about.

I am not specifically asserting anything about libraries! (Apart from pointing out others misconstructions)

Rather I am not an adherent of the "Let's close everything down" 'philosophy'. Seemingly so close to the heart of modern Conservatism. (Ironically!)


No, but questioning the cost effectiveness of all public expenditure is part of governments responsibility. (But I did read somewhere that it would be cheaper for the state to just buy and give it free to the reader each book borrowed from our Libraries!)

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654385

Postby Mike4 » March 18th, 2024, 6:29 pm

XFool wrote:
Rather I am not an adherent of the "Let's close everything down" 'philosophy'. Seemingly so close to the heart of modern Conservatism. (Ironically!)


That's good. Nor am I.

But we are discussing public libraries specifically and I am not convinced they should be paid for out of Council Tax and free at the point of use by anyone. You seem to be asserting they should be but don't seem able to put forward any substantive reasons for why they should be AFAICS, beyond believing in the future or some such tosh!

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654386

Postby Charlottesquare » March 18th, 2024, 6:31 pm

Mike4 wrote:
XFool wrote:Another strawman?

Perhaps, if Oscar Wilde were alive to day, he would say: 'What is a Conservative? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.'


You're not convincing me!


I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're the one asserting that libraries should be free for reasons I'm still not clear about.


Might as well charge for schools- who needs an educated workforce in the 21st century?

I appreciated a while back now, but 25 years ago our kids got taken to the Central Edinburgh Children's Library every two weeks to change their books (followed by an all day breakfast) , this may have assisted them in improving their command of English, who knows, but it certainly did no harm.

And, to be perfectly frank, I would prefer a few more school children using hardcopy books to study, I know from my own work that reading on paper, with notepad and pen alongside, is a very different experience/exercise from reading on screen. (For one thing I miss less when proof reading actual printed documents)

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654392

Postby XFool » March 18th, 2024, 6:47 pm

Mike4 wrote:
XFool wrote:Rather I am not an adherent of the "Let's close everything down" 'philosophy'. Seemingly so close to the heart of modern Conservatism. (Ironically!)

That's good. Nor am I.

But we are discussing public libraries specifically

You may be, I'm not. The Birmingham Library was just one of Lootman's distractions.
Last edited by XFool on March 18th, 2024, 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654393

Postby MuddyBoots » March 18th, 2024, 6:48 pm

Mike4 wrote: That's good. Nor am I.

But we are discussing public libraries specifically and I am not convinced they should be paid for out of Council Tax and free at the point of use by anyone. You seem to be asserting they should be but don't seem able to put forward any substantive reasons for why they should be AFAICS, beyond believing in the future or some such tosh!


Ok but what happens to the money saved by privatising the libraries? I wouldn't mind so much if we could have a cut in council tax so that it's cost-neutral for me (as a library user). Otherwise, if I have to start paying for the libraries, and the same level of council tax, where am I going to find the extra money?

If the answer to that is that actually my library use is being subsidised by all the council tax payers who don't use them, then why pick out libraries in particular, shouldn't we follow through to all other council services? Which ones are essential like the police, child protection and bin collection, and which are discretionary?

Edit. My local library is staffed by volunteers now, so we're in a hybrid system already.

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654397

Postby tjh290633 » March 18th, 2024, 7:09 pm

Back in my youth, Boots the Chemists had a lending library. We had a stationery and bookshop which ran a lending library. Once a week the County Council Library opened it's several boxes of books in a public hut. I recall getting hooked on Howard Spring when I read Marjorie Morningstar. The others charged 1d or 2d for borrowing a book for a week. The council's was, if course, free. The hut was a prefabricated structure, where the WVS ran a canteen for the servicemen stationed locally. My memory is of cherryade and digestive biscuits as my mother took me along when she took her turn at serving.

There was room and custom for both private and public libraries. The council made use of a facility known as the Maycrete Hall, after it's makers.

TJH

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654399

Postby Lootman » March 18th, 2024, 7:26 pm

XFool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:That's good. Nor am I. But we are discussing public libraries specifically

You may be, I'm not. The Birmingham Library was just one of Lootman's distractions.

No, you introduced the failures of Birmingham Council and the new library fiasco is a part of that:

"The Labour-run local authority – the largest in Europe – has long been a byword for incompetence and "financial profligacy". Its flashy central library cost more than £180m to build."

https://theweek.com/business/how-birmingham-went-bust

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654420

Postby Mike4 » March 18th, 2024, 10:12 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:You may be, I'm not. The Birmingham Library was just one of Lootman's distractions.

No, you introduced the failures of Birmingham Council and the new library fiasco is a part of that:

"The Labour-run local authority – the largest in Europe – has long been a byword for incompetence and "financial profligacy". Its flashy central library cost more than £180m to build."

https://theweek.com/business/how-birmingham-went-bust


A library costing £180m in these days of free internet?

Jeez...

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654433

Postby ursaminortaur » March 18th, 2024, 11:12 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Lootman wrote:No, you introduced the failures of Birmingham Council and the new library fiasco is a part of that:

"The Labour-run local authority – the largest in Europe – has long been a byword for incompetence and "financial profligacy". Its flashy central library cost more than £180m to build."

https://theweek.com/business/how-birmingham-went-bust


A library costing £180m in these days of free internet?

Jeez...


How many books though are actually free to download from the internet ? You may be able to download some of the older ones which are out of copyright but I think the likes of Amazon would be having a fit if all books were available for free.

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654435

Postby Mike4 » March 18th, 2024, 11:19 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
A library costing £180m in these days of free internet?

Jeez...


How many books though are actually free to download from the internet ? You may be able to download some of the older ones which are out of copyright but I think the likes of Amazon would be having a fit if all books were available for free.


You seem to be missing the point. Can you explain why fiction books should be free to read, funded by the rate-payer?

There is nothing stopping people buying <shock horror> the books they wish to read.

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654436

Postby ursaminortaur » March 18th, 2024, 11:30 pm

Mike4 wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
How many books though are actually free to download from the internet ? You may be able to download some of the older ones which are out of copyright but I think the likes of Amazon would be having a fit if all books were available for free.


You seem to be missing the point. Can you explain why fiction books should be free to read, funded by the rate-payer?

There is nothing stopping people buying <shock horror> the books they wish to read.


For children in particular access via a library to large numbers of books helps improve literacy without burdening the family (particularly poorer families) with the costs of purchasing their own personal library of books (most of which the child would only read once).

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654438

Postby Mike4 » March 18th, 2024, 11:53 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
You seem to be missing the point. Can you explain why fiction books should be free to read, funded by the rate-payer?

There is nothing stopping people buying <shock horror> the books they wish to read.


For children in particular access via a library to large numbers of books helps improve literacy without burdening the family (particularly poorer families) with the costs of purchasing their own personal library of books (most of which the child would only read once).


£180m well spent in your opinion then?

(Is that just the building, or does it include (perhaps) a million books at say £10 each?)

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Re: Wealth tax and the rich

#654440

Postby ursaminortaur » March 19th, 2024, 12:55 am

Mike4 wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
For children in particular access via a library to large numbers of books helps improve literacy without burdening the family (particularly poorer families) with the costs of purchasing their own personal library of books (most of which the child would only read once).


£180m well spent in your opinion then?

(Is that just the building, or does it include (perhaps) a million books at say £10 each?)


I was answering your general point about libraries.

However this particular library is hardly your small town lending library it is more akin to the British Library in London being a major visitor destination and research facility housing a number of major collections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Birmingham

The Library of Birmingham is a public library in Birmingham, England. It is situated on the west side of the city centre at Centenary Square, beside the Birmingham Rep (to which it connects, and with which it shares some facilities) and Baskerville House. Upon opening on 3 September 2013, it replaced Birmingham Central Library. The library, which is estimated to have cost £188.8 million,[1] is viewed by the Birmingham City Council as a flagship project for the city's redevelopment. It has been described as the largest public library in the United Kingdom,[3] the largest public cultural space in Europe,[4][5][6] and the largest regional library in Europe.[7] 2,414,860 visitors came to the library in 2014 making it the 10th most popular visitor attraction in the UK
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Reaction to the planned library was generally positive. Then-Poet Laureate Andrew Motion said that "These plans are properly ambitious to preserve the best traditional practice, while also opening the building to new ideas about what a library should be — the heart of the community, fulfilling all manner of social needs as well as scholarly, research-based and pleasurable ones." Philip Pullman said "The new Library of Birmingham sounds as if it will be lovely and should attract even more users than the present one with its impressive visitor total of 5,000 a day." Sir Alan Ayckbourn said "I wholeheartedly support the proposed exciting new plans to develop the new Birmingham library" and Irvine Welsh said "[It's] an audacious and compelling initiative which promises to redefine and modernise the entire notion of public library services, and in the process create the greatest public information resource in Europe ... Writers will love it, and so will readers."[18]
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The library has nationally and internationally significant collections, including the Boulton and Watt archives, the Bournville Village Trust Archive, the Charles Parker Archive,[33] the Parker collection of children's books,[34] the Wingate Bett transport ticket collection,[34] the Railway and Canal Historical Society Library; and the photographic archives of the Warwickshire photographic survey,[34] Sir Benjamin Stone,[35] John Blakemore[36] and Val Williams;[37] and starting in 2009, continuing through 2014, acquired that of Daniel Meadows.[38] The Daniel Meadows collection moved to the Bodleian Library in March 2018.[39]

The specialist Shakespeare Memorial Room was designed in 1882 by John Henry Chamberlain for the first Central Library.[40] When the old building was demolished in 1974 Chamberlain's room was dismantled and later fitted into the new concrete shell of the new library complex.[40] When the Library of Birmingham was built, it was again moved, to the top floor.[40] It houses Britain's most important Shakespeare collection, and one of the two most important Shakespeare collections in the world; the other being held by the Folger Shakespeare Library. The collection contains 43,000 books[26] including rare items such as a copy of the First Folio 1623; copies of the four earliest Folio editions;[26] over 70 editions of separate plays printed before 1709 including three "Pavier" quartos published in 1619 but falsely dated. There are significant collections from the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, a near complete collection of Collected Works, significant numbers of adaptations, anthologies and individual editions.

The Boulton and Watt Collection is the archive of the steam engine partnership of Matthew Boulton and James Watt, dating from its formation in 1774 until the firm's closure in the 1890s. The archive comprises about 550 volumes of letters, books, order books and account books, approximately 29,000 engine drawings and upwards of 20,000 letters received from customers. Boulton and Watt manufactured the screw engines for Brunel's SS Great Eastern and the archive includes a portfolio of 13 albumen prints by Robert Howlett documenting the construction of the Great Eastern, including a rare variant of the Brunel portrait of 1857.[41]

Also displayed in the Library are two large coade stone medallions, made in the 1770s and removed from the front of the city's Theatre Royal when it was demolished in 1956. These depict David Garrick and William Shakespeare.


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