Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

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zico
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Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby zico » January 10th, 2017, 12:25 pm

Strange times in the USA, definitely falling into the category of "truth is stranger than fiction".
The president-elect is siding with Russia in mocking the US intelligence reports which state that Russia was influencing the election because they wanted Trump to win, and this appears somehow to be not that big a deal for people in the USA. Has any prominent US political figure ever taken Russia's side over the USA?

Do people think Trump is decrying US intelligence services simply because he doesn't want his victory to be tainted, or is it because Trump has some knowledge/involvement in what Russia did, and doesn't want anyone to find out about it? Or maybe Putin has hacked Trump's phone calls and emails, and has something on him.

There's a big difference between being friendly with Russia and simply doing Russia's bidding - "appeasement" is the word that springs to mind.

staffordian
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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby staffordian » January 10th, 2017, 2:08 pm

Judging by the general tone of his tweets and his pre-election speeches, I get the distinct impression that he is so thin skinned and immature that he only thinks in terms of his own importance. Anything which in his view taints his success has to be criticised, so in the above case, my view is that the only thing that matters to him is to "correct" the assertion that anyone but him was responsible for his success. The collateral damage to the US probably doesnt even cross his mind as he throws his toys out of the pram.

It's the same with the puerile responses he has to make to any criticism, such as his tweets about Meryl Streep, who IMHO did no more than raise concerns which any right minded person shares.

Staffordian

redsturgeon
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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby redsturgeon » January 10th, 2017, 3:31 pm

staffordian wrote:Judging by the general tone of his tweets and his pre-election speeches, I get the distinct impression that he is so thin skinned and immature that he only thinks in terms of his own importance. Anything which in his view taints his success has to be criticised, so in the above case, my view is that the only thing that matters to him is to "correct" the assertion that anyone but him was responsible for his success. The collateral damage to the US probably doesnt even cross his mind as he throws his toys out of the pram.

It's the same with the puerile responses he has to make to any criticism, such as his tweets about Meryl Streep, who IMHO did no more than raise concerns which any right minded person shares.

Staffordian


It's OK though, he is surrounding himself with top advisors to help him, like Jared Kushner...spooky, he has the same name as his son in law...er OK, nothing to see here, no nepotism at all, no sir. Let's carry on clearing out the swamp Mr Trump.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 18156.html

John

staffordian
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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby staffordian » January 10th, 2017, 4:21 pm

If I thought for one minute that Trump would last anything like his full four year term, I'd be very worried for the future of the civilised world, (as well as the USA :D ) but I can't see him surviving all the legal challenges which apparently are in the pipeline.

And given how much attention he appears to pay to his security people, I wonder if he will actually be alive in four years time...

Staffordian

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby TopOnePercent » January 10th, 2017, 8:34 pm

zico wrote:Do people think Trump is decrying US intelligence services simply because he doesn't want his victory to be tainted, or is it because Trump has some knowledge/involvement in what Russia did, and doesn't want anyone to find out about it? Or maybe Putin has hacked Trump's phone calls and emails, and has something on him.


I think he's just heart sick of supposed democrats failure to accept his legitimate victory and that President Trump will be the 45th.

There's many parallels with remainers on our shores - it simply doesn't matter what they have to say now, we're all just so sick of the noise and childlike refusal to accept democracy that their opinions no longer have any relevance or legitimacy.

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby XFool » January 10th, 2017, 10:40 pm

TopOnePercent wrote:I think he's just heart sick of supposed democrats failure to accept his legitimate victory and that President Trump will be the 45th.

There's many parallels with remainers on our shores - it simply doesn't matter what they have to say now, we're all just so sick of the noise and childlike refusal to accept democracy that their opinions no longer have any relevance or legitimacy.

Yes. This complaining by non supporters is nothing more than bad form, isn't it? Especially when you remember how readily Trump welcomed Obama into office as the previous legitimate US president.

Seriously? I think, as has been said, he is just thin skinned.

bungeejumper
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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby bungeejumper » January 11th, 2017, 11:08 am

Tut tut, more fake news:

http://europe.newsweek.com/donald-trump ... 1315?rm=eu

Why ever can't they leave the poor man alone? ;)

zico
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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby zico » January 11th, 2017, 3:46 pm

I think he's just heart sick of supposed democrats failure to accept his legitimate victory and that President Trump will be the 45th.


Which democrats have failed to accept his legitimate victory? On the US news channels I've watched, I haven't seen any democrats saying his victory wasn't legitimate. "Not liking" and "not accepting" are 2 different things!

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby TopOnePercent » January 11th, 2017, 8:07 pm

zico wrote:
I think he's just heart sick of supposed democrats failure to accept his legitimate victory and that President Trump will be the 45th.


Which democrats have failed to accept his legitimate victory? On the US news channels I've watched, I haven't seen any democrats saying his victory wasn't legitimate. "Not liking" and "not accepting" are 2 different things!


Pretending not to have noticed the "not my president" placards and rioting doesn't lend weight to your argument. Or the "I'm not giving up and nor should you" variants. Even HRC had to come out and express that however unpalatable it may be to some of her supporters that Trump WAs their President.

Much as I dislike Hillary Clinton, I'll give her the credit that this was more than just a negotiating tactic on her part to avoid a long overdue criminal investigation.

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby bionichamster » January 11th, 2017, 10:38 pm

It would be nice to think that Trump was some sort of free-thinking maverick genius who will come up with novel well thought out solutions to the problems facing the US and it's citizen, perhaps that's how it will turn out. Unfortunately pretty much everything that has happened before and since his election suggests to me that he is fairly clueless about how to resolve pretty much any issue and perhaps is fairly clueless about many issues themselves neve rmind solutions.
On the other hand he seems prepared to spend an inordinate amount of time raging against petty comments and slights of the type most politicians have to put up with every day of their lives (imagine if Thatcher or Reagan or Blair had spent an equivalent amount of time responding to people who were rude about them). The guy's skin is paper thin, he rises to the bait everytime, nothing is his fault, everyone else is a liar or a loser or nasty or whatever. He may not be a Russian puppet but with his temperament the FSB will be able to play him like he has strings attached even if they don't have any dirt on him.
Speaking of which, after the life he has led and given what we've seen of his personality and attitudes I'd find it pretty surprising if there wasn't a wide selection of compromising information/recordings of his exploits in a number of people's vaults. But given what he got away with during the campaign I'm not sure it's anything for him to worry about.... yet. He can probably shrug off pretty much anything at the moment with bluster, bravado and bull***t. However after a year or two after the glossy teflon veneer has got scuffed and if he isn't managing to improve life for those 'disenfranchised' voters who elected him, or is actually making life worse for them while feathering Trump tower and associated cronies then it might not take much dirt to destroy him, problem is, he seems like the kind of guy who'd want to torpedo everyone else as he goes down.

His current spat with the US intelligence services is bizarre. If they were trying to discredit him I suspect they'd do a much more thorough job, and while I think much of his rection is a smoke screen for teh voters while he urgently works with them to try and figure out just what the Russians are up to one has to wonder, if he turns out to be a dangerous liability to the US such as by being easily manipulated, or indeed blackmailed by foreign powers, or by totally undermining security with reactionary decisions with far reaching consequences based on vengance for some percieved slight, that maybe Trump Force One, (or whatever he calls that ageing 757 with his name emblazoned across it) might develop a critical engine fault and crash into an ocean somewhere. Ted Cruz's dad suggested that to me.

BH

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby staffordian » January 11th, 2017, 11:30 pm

I read an interesting piece in the New Statesman, about his Twitter spat with Meryl Streep which suggested he was very cleverly using Twitter to manipulate the press by setting the days news agenda.

If the papers and the TV channels spend all day reporting and analysing cr@p like that, rather than his (lack of?) policies on things which matter like the Middle East, terrorism, Obamacare replacement etc, it delays the inevitable outcome, i.e. the realisation that the Emperor really does have no clothes on...

Thoughts?

Staffordian

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby TopOnePercent » January 12th, 2017, 12:22 am

I'm assuming the twitter thing is going to stop once he assumes office, and he's just blowing off steam while he can.

Let's be realistic about this - the odds that Trump will be accused of something involving women during his presidency are close to 100%. If he denies it, he'll get impeached, and he won't be able to rely on Republican support. So if he wants to make it to four years, he's going to need to stay silent, or admit pretty much anything he's accused of before his inauguration.

HRC, I expect, will be wetting her pants laughing before Trump even finishes his first look around the Whitehouse.

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby RowdyReptile » January 12th, 2017, 12:40 am

It is indeed strange days in the US of A. I don't even know where to begin.

It seems the Russians are a threat now, but back in 2012, when Romney dared suggest such a thing during the debates, President Obama mocked him for it. There was even a time when Obama was caught on microphones promising more "flexibility" to the Russians once the elections were over.

Hmmm.....

Now, Obama is getting a tad peevish with the Russians. They now have become a threat, and Obama took it seriously when it was a threat to his party's power. I am sure Putin is shaking in his shoes.

And get this. The intelligence agencies of the US(using the term intelligence loosely) can now be trusted! Yes, these were the same clowns that fed us the Iraq and WMD line. The Democrats said it was a lie during the Bush Administration, but wasn't a lie when they said the same thing during the Clinton adminstration, and now trust that agency to ascertain our threats in an...intelligent manner.

Oh no, there is no political bullsheet being played here...not at all.

Speaking for myself, I do not need Russians to tell me what liars, charlatans, cheats and unprincipled people American politicians have become.

And as an American, I am totally outraged...yes outraged someone would interfere in our elections and try to influence them. I mean, we have never done that! :shock: And certainly never interfered after those elections when we did not get the outcome we wanted...oh no...never.

For a people that supposedly don't understand irony, we sure serve it up in big doses.

RR

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby redsturgeon » January 12th, 2017, 9:13 am

Does anyone really believe that Trump handing over control of his business interests to his sons in any way stops clashes of interest during his presidency? In fact since he says that if they don't do a good job he will fire them will he actually de facto change anything at all by this proposed move?

John

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 12th, 2017, 9:45 am

RowdyReptile wrote:For a people that supposedly don't understand irony, we sure serve it up in big doses.

RR

Are you a real 'merkin, or an honourary Brit who just happened to land out of his context? ;)

Trump and the Russians, we've just seen his secretary of state taking a hard line. Good-cop, bad-cop. Oh, and it would seem more-or-less inconceivable that Russian spooks don't have something on him. Same applies to spooks of many other countries, not least his closest allies. And a range of journalists who've done a bit of digging.

As for the intelligence agencies, they do what they're told by their masters. If that means publishing a lot of blatant lies to mislead the public (as in the case of Iraq), it's all part of the job. The interesting question in Trump-vs-CIA (and to an extent FBI-vs-Clinton) is, whose agenda are the spooks following? Russians-got-him-elected would be a straightforward Democrat political master. But yesterday's story (in particular his enthusiastic reaction) smelt like it *could* have been a Trump plant designed to discredit someone.

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby XFool » January 12th, 2017, 1:10 pm

I have no idea what is or is not true about Donald Trump. But by now we surely can be certain of one thing: the incoming president of the USA is a loose cannon.

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby TopOnePercent » January 12th, 2017, 8:12 pm

XFool wrote:I have no idea what is or is not true about Donald Trump. But by now we surely can be certain of one thing: the incoming president of the USA is a loose cannon.


We can also be certain that the outgoing President is responsible for an awful lot of turmoil, race riots that are simmering towards a race war, and who has three achievements from 8 years in power:- Obamacare, which is being repealed; not being GWB, and being the President to find and kill OBL.

For 8 years, that's a mighty slim legacy. The outgoing President has been a damp squib. Full marks to his family for their collective conduct in the Whitehouse - it's been of the highest standard in many decades.

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby redsturgeon » January 12th, 2017, 8:34 pm

TopOnePercent wrote:
The outgoing President has been a damp squib. Full marks to his family for their collective conduct in the Whitehouse - it's been of the highest standard in many decades.


I agree with both those points.

I can only hope that I will be saying the same in 4 years time.

John

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby XFool » January 12th, 2017, 9:03 pm

TopOnePercent wrote:We can also be certain that the outgoing President is responsible for an awful lot of turmoil, race riots that are simmering towards a race war

And how exactly can we be sure of that and that the outgoing President was "responsible" for it?

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Re: Russia and Trump v CIA/FBI etc

Postby TopOnePercent » January 12th, 2017, 9:24 pm

XFool wrote:
TopOnePercent wrote:We can also be certain that the outgoing President is responsible for an awful lot of turmoil, race riots that are simmering towards a race war

And how exactly can we be sure of that and that the outgoing President was "responsible" for it?


Put simply, it happened on his watch. Under GWB there was no BLM, no rioting, no deliberate shooting of police officers just for being white. The thing of it is, I genuinely can't think of a single thing BO has done to arrest the problem. Not a one.

I had high hopes for Obama, and he's failed to achieve almost any of them. For my own reasons I'll not expand upon, I am eternally grateful to him for his prioritising the finding of Bin Laden. That will always be his greatest accomplishment in office.

Trump I view as an interesting experiment. His greatest achievement is probably already behind him though - keeping HRC from a 3rd and possibly 4th term in office. It'll be an interesting few years - I can't imagine he'll see out the full term without impeachment though, and his VP isn't the sort of person I want to see in the Whitehouse. Condi Rice: Your country needs you.


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