Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

[Hallucigenia]

This is nice, the top 5 companies at different stages of the battery value chain, courtesy of Benchmark:

[kempiejon]

Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.

Citation needed.

The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.

Is this right, my chum was saying 6 months ago or so that the expanding zone into his borough would mean he was going to have start paying, he has a hybrid but was thinking about a new car because of this.

[odysseus2000]

Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.

Citation needed.

The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.

Most plug in hybrids have limited range on batteries so that unless journeys are very short, typically less than 50 miles:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars ... ry%20alone.

So they have to use petrol & many rarely bother to charge as the main advantage, especially for business users, is to avoid pollution charges.

Current trends will see the costs of pure electric cars undercut plug in hybrids to the point that the market for plug in hybrids will collapse.

Meanwhile politicians have cottoned on to the “cheating” of using petrol & are now charging plug-in hybrids which just increases the rate that this ridiculous technology will collapse.

Regards,

[Hallucigenia]

Is this right, my chum was saying 6 months ago or so that the expanding zone into his borough would mean he was going to have start paying, he has a hybrid but was thinking about a new car because of this.

I think he's mixing up two things. The thing that expanded out to the M25 last summer was the ULEZ, which is something that only applies to the 15% of oldest cars, which have to pay a fee to enter it. But a hybrid car wouldn't be affected by that.

The Congestion Charge zone is much smaller, roughly inside the Circle Line, and that's the bit where the rules are changing. At the moment low-emission vehicles like EVs are exempt, but they will have to pay from the end of next year. Hybrids used not to pay it, but pretty much all of them have had to pay Congestion Charge since 2021.

[odysseus2000]

This is nice, the top 5 companies at different stages of the battery value chain, courtesy of Benchmark:

Interesting, but what would be additionally interesting is the average margins for each of the steps in the supply chain. I imagine that only the last stage has anything beyond commodity pricing.

Regards,

[Hallucigenia]

Interesting, but what would be additionally interesting is the average margins for each of the steps in the supply chain. I imagine that only the last stage has anything beyond commodity pricing.

Regards,

Well, the numbers are available for many of the companies if you want to do the work - for instance in 2022 Albemarle had way more gross margin than Tesla at 42%, although like Tesla that came back last year, to 12%.

[DrFfybes]

Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.

Citation needed.

The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.

It is an oft repeated 'statistic'. I know 3 people with PHEVs, one private owner goes most places of electric, the 2 busieness owners with the Mitsubishi Worriers never plug them in.

https://www.google.com/search?c-b-d&q=h ... et+charged links to an old ICCT report suggesting charging is low at best, but that is mainly USA data.

Other sources refute the claim https://www.fleetevolution.com/are-peop ... ybrid-car/ but all these reports have vested interest.

Of course the manufacturers will have the exact data come service time, but I'm more inclined to believe that those with company cars and company fuel tended to buy them for the tax breaks than the green credentials, those with a mileage allowance of 45p/mile (or whatever it is) will be more likely to run on electric.

Paul

[BigB]

Citation needed.

The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.

It is an oft repeated 'statistic'. I know 3 people with PHEVs, one private owner goes most places of electric, the 2 busieness owners with the Mitsubishi Worriers never plug them in.

https://www.google.com/search?c-b-d&q=h ... et+charged links to an old ICCT report suggesting charging is low at best, but that is mainly USA data.

Other sources refute the claim https://www.fleetevolution.com/are-peop ... ybrid-car/ but all these reports have vested interest.

Of course the manufacturers will have the exact data come service time, but I'm more inclined to believe that those with company cars and company fuel tended to buy them for the tax breaks than the green credentials, those with a mileage allowance of 45p/mile (or whatever it is) will be more likely to run on electric.

Paul

As implied by DrF, there is a diverse audience for PHEVs. I know 2 owners.

1 is private and has a 30 mile commute with recharge facility at work, so plugs in and does all his routine mileage on battery. Money, pretends he cares about the environment.

1 is a company car user (with fuel card), and has recently replaced a regular hybrid Rav4 with a BIK tax rate of c.30% with a plugin Rav4 with a BIK rate of 8%. 8 per cent, is that right? His commute is 50+ miles so spends a fair chunk of time using petrol but is quids in. Money, doesn't pretend it's about the environment.

[PeterGray]

I've never been keen on hybrids. After someone tried to write off our aging, ULEX non compliant diesel a couple of years back - thankfully they only managed to write it off for insurance purposes, getting it sorted cost less than the insurance value, and it's still doing great reliable service on the roads (well clear of London) - we considered possible replacements, both BEV and hybrid. I came to the conclusion that while the hybrid certainly offered flexibility, the idea of paying for all the additinal complexity of two power sources, and the impact of the additional weight made them an unappealing option in terms of climate benefits. Hybrids will certainly help reduce local pollution in cities, and probably make sense for those sorts of journeys, as well as the financial benefits discussed. I'm continuing to hope that by the time my trusty 14 year old Golf bits the dust access to recharging points and improved BEVs will solve the problem for me.

[88V8]

Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.

Citation needed.

This is oft reported.
Here, for example.
There are plenty of people who pretend to care about 'the environment' but don't actually give a damn, and are happy to freeload on the back of govt subsidies.

V8

[Hallucigenia]

This is oft reported.
Here, for example.

California 2022.

It's always going to be a bit different in the US, as their petrol prices are so much lower (current average is $3.53/USgal = 75p/litre). UK petrol prices are double that, but on something like the Octopus EV tariff you're filling up the car at 7.5p/kWh, about the equivalent in energy terms of 68p/litre (or for free on their new V2G tariff). And that's without adjusting for the much greater efficiency of electric motoring.

So behaviour is bound to be different in the US compared to Europe.

There are plenty of people who pretend to care about 'the environment' but don't actually give a damn, and are happy to freeload on the back of govt subsidies.

V8

Except those subsidies are not great for hybrids these days in the UK - a Prius or Mini hybrid pay 6x the BIK of a pure electric car, and the previous post talked about people using it as a way to get into cities cheaply, which hasn't been true for hybrids since 2021 in the UK's biggest pollution-reduction scheme.

And yet hybrids are still 20% of the new car market in the UK, a touch more than pure EVs, which suggests that they work for a lot more people than just company car drivers claiming subsidies.

[DrFfybes]

This is oft reported.
Here, for example.

California 2022.

It's always going to be a bit different in the US, as their petrol prices are so much lower (current average is $3.53/USgal = 75p/litre). UK petrol prices are double that, but on something like the Octopus EV tariff you're filling up the car at 7.5p/kWh, about the equivalent in energy terms of 68p/litre (or for free on their new V2G tariff). And that's without adjusting for the much greater efficiency of electric motoring.

So behaviour is bound to be different in the US compared to Europe.

Also their electricity prices vary massively depending upon where you live, and the difference between on/off peak differs massively.

eg offpeak about 1p cheaper on https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savi ... f-day.html whereas in Wyoming the offpeak is 6c compared to 12c peak.

On the very similar looking https://www.pacificpower.net/savings-en ... f-use.html California and Oregon appear to charge twice as much as Washington.

Paul

[88V8]

This is oft reported.
Here, for example.

California 2022.
And yet hybrids are still 20% of the new car market in the UK, a touch more than pure EVs, which suggests that they work for a lot more people than just company car drivers claiming subsidies.

The couple up the road have a Lexus hybrid, they do charge it, and use it for trips to Switzerland. No range anxiety.
It's been very reliable, in contrast to their Peugeot EV shopping trolley which has been at least three times trailered off to a distant garage for repairs. The last breakdown took so long to fix - waiting for parts, guv - that they went and bought another EV as a stopgap.

So yes, hybrids do work well for some.

It just bugs me that we have the govt - ie, me - subsidising people to buy things in order to save the planet and then the user omitting the saving part.

V8

[odysseus2000]

California 2022.

It's always going to be a bit different in the US, as their petrol prices are so much lower (current average is $3.53/USgal = 75p/litre). UK petrol prices are double that, but on something like the Octopus EV tariff you're filling up the car at 7.5p/kWh, about the equivalent in energy terms of 68p/litre (or for free on their new V2G tariff). And that's without adjusting for the much greater efficiency of electric motoring.

So behaviour is bound to be different in the US compared to Europe.

Also their electricity prices vary massively depending upon where you live, and the difference between on/off peak differs massively.

eg offpeak about 1p cheaper on https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savi ... f-day.html whereas in Wyoming the offpeak is 6c compared to 12c peak.

On the very similar looking https://www.pacificpower.net/savings-en ... f-use.html California and Oregon appear to charge twice as much as Washington.

Paul

There is a big range in the UK for electric prices. I pay about 31p per kWh, but a neighbour up the road pays around 8p with Evo for off peak charging & often drives 200+ miles to visit his daughter in his electric BMW. This does around 2 miles per kWh, so 200 miles is roughly around 100 kWh, or £8. Compared to say a diesel doing 50 mpg, this would cost around £1.50 per gallon, for 200 miles 4x1.50x4.55 = £27.30. He also gets the reductions in benefit in kind tax. A newer diesel might return 100 mpg, putting the cost down to £13.65.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

California 2022.
And yet hybrids are still 20% of the new car market in the UK, a touch more than pure EVs, which suggests that they work for a lot more people than just company car drivers claiming subsidies.

The couple up the road have a Lexus hybrid, they do charge it, and use it for trips to Switzerland. No range anxiety.
It's been very reliable, in contrast to their Peugeot EV shopping trolley which has been at least three times trailered off to a distant garage for repairs. The last breakdown took so long to fix - waiting for parts, guv - that they went and bought another EV as a stopgap.

So yes, hybrids do work well for some.

It just bugs me that we have the govt - ie, me - subsidising people to buy things in order to save the planet and then the user omitting the saving part.

V8

The transition from ice to bev was always going to be a lumpy transition, but apart from the odd few refuseniks the future is rapidly moving to electric. During lockdown when many were off the roads the air was so much sweeter. Most of the time I don’t notice the smells from ice engines but during that time when neighbours started their tractor or chain saw I could quickly smell them. Imho the sooner most vehicles are electric the better. I don’t think a child born now should have to breathe all the pollution that we have had inhale.

Regards,

[Watis]

The couple up the road have a Lexus hybrid, they do charge it, and use it for trips to Switzerland. No range anxiety.
It's been very reliable, in contrast to their Peugeot EV shopping trolley which has been at least three times trailered off to a distant garage for repairs. The last breakdown took so long to fix - waiting for parts, guv - that they went and bought another EV as a stopgap.

So yes, hybrids do work well for some.

It just bugs me that we have the govt - ie, me - subsidising people to buy things in order to save the planet and then the user omitting the saving part.

V8

The transition from ice to bev was always going to be a lumpy transition, but apart from the odd few refuseniks the future is rapidly moving to electric. During lockdown when many were off the roads the air was so much sweeter. Most of the time I don’t notice the smells from ice engines but during that time when neighbours started their tractor or chain saw I could quickly smell them. Imho the sooner most vehicles are electric the better. I don’t think a child born now should have to breathe all the pollution that we have had inhale.

Regards,

I remember the air smelling sweeter during lockdown. too.

But I suspect that catalytic converters made a bigger difference over time. Returning home after a skiing holiday high in the Alps in the 1980's, it took me a week to stop noticing the smell of exhaust fumes at a time when no cars had cats.

Watis

[odysseus2000]

The transition from ice to bev was always going to be a lumpy transition, but apart from the odd few refuseniks the future is rapidly moving to electric. During lockdown when many were off the roads the air was so much sweeter. Most of the time I don’t notice the smells from ice engines but during that time when neighbours started their tractor or chain saw I could quickly smell them. Imho the sooner most vehicles are electric the better. I don’t think a child born now should have to breathe all the pollution that we have had inhale.

Regards,

I remember the air smelling sweeter during lockdown. too.

But I suspect that catalytic converters made a bigger difference over time. Returning home after a skiing holiday high in the Alps in the 1980's, it took me a week to stop noticing the smell of exhaust fumes at a time when no cars had cats.

Watis

Yes, I remember when the air was so full of un-burnt hydro carbon that it used to, when walking by a stream of stopped cars with engines running, cut into my throat & assaulted my skin & eyes. More efficient engines with fuel injection used more of the fuel & then as you say cats helped even more.


Regards,

[Arborbridge]

Also their electricity prices vary massively depending upon where you live, and the difference between on/off peak differs massively.

eg offpeak about 1p cheaper on https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savi ... f-day.html whereas in Wyoming the offpeak is 6c compared to 12c peak.

On the very similar looking https://www.pacificpower.net/savings-en ... f-use.html California and Oregon appear to charge twice as much as Washington.

Paul

There is a big range in the UK for electric prices. I pay about 31p per kWh, but a neighbour up the road pays around 8p with Evo for off peak charging & often drives 200+ miles to visit his daughter in his electric BMW. This does around 2 miles per kWh, so 200 miles is roughly around 100 kWh, or £8. Compared to say a diesel doing 50 mpg, this would cost around £1.50 per gallon, for 200 miles 4x1.50x4.55 = £27.30. He also gets the reductions in benefit in kind tax. A newer diesel might return 100 mpg, putting the cost down to £13.65.

Regards,

2 miles per KwH - is that true? I don't know much about EVs in general, but that is around half what I achieve with my VW iD3. 2 miles does seem very low from what I read.

Arb.

[Urbandreamer]

There is a big range in the UK for electric prices. I pay about 31p per kWh, but a neighbour up the road pays around 8p with Evo for off peak charging & often drives 200+ miles to visit his daughter in his electric BMW. This does around 2 miles per kWh, so 200 miles is roughly around 100 kWh, or £8. Compared to say a diesel doing 50 mpg, this would cost around £1.50 per gallon, for 200 miles 4x1.50x4.55 = £27.30. He also gets the reductions in benefit in kind tax. A newer diesel might return 100 mpg, putting the cost down to £13.65.

Regards,

2 miles per KwH - is that true? I don't know much about EVs in general, but that is around half what I achieve with my VW iD3. 2 miles does seem very low from what I read.

Arb.

We don't know the BMW model, but the BMW I3 was designed when the only way to get any range was to do everything possible to increase the efficiency. To the extent that it's one of very few production cars with a carbon fibre monocoque.
It's up there with McLaren, Koeninsegg, Ferrari, Bugatti etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... coque_cars

I'm seriously intending to get a second hand model later in the year

[88V8]

But I suspect that catalytic converters made a bigger difference over time. Returning home after a skiing holiday high in the Alps in the 1980's, it took me a week to stop noticing the smell of exhaust fumes at a time when no cars had cats.

Yes, I remember when the air was so full of un-burnt hydro carbon that it used to, when walking by a stream of stopped cars with engines running, cut into my throat & assaulted my skin & eyes. More efficient engines with fuel injection used more of the fuel & then as you say cats helped even more.

Was rereading an edition of Popular Mechanics magazine last night, from 1955.
In there, amongst the 'new' stuff, was a fork lift truck that had a cat so it could be used indoors.
Took, what, 35 years for cats to appear widely on cars.

In the same edition was an article extolling the notion that seat belts might be a good thing.

Things change, slowly.

V8