The Lemon Fool

88V8 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:I seem to recall reading - and I’ve just been back on the indiegogo site to check & see that memory serves - that the bike has a “Gates Carbon Drive”. That should last, no?

Yes, it does.
Like an overgrown cogged fan belt.

I hope it will last, and probably cheap to replace when it wears.

V8

They do have a very good reputation for commuter bike drive trains. What always strikes me about them is how little backlash they have.
I tried a fixie fitted with one once and it made for a very tense experience; any twitch made it to the wheels.

88V8 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:I seem to recall reading - and I’ve just been back on the indiegogo site to check & see that memory serves - that the bike has a “Gates Carbon Drive”. That should last, no?

Yes, it does.
Like an overgrown cogged fan belt.

I hope it will last, and probably cheap to replace when it wears.

V8

Oh I think it will. Far better than a chain. No rust, no slackening, no oiling do do and no oil on your clothes. Harley Davidson have been using belt drives for years on their motorbikes, and now BMW are too (on some models). So I think it should take pedal-power without stretching!
DOI - it’s what I’ve got on my Beaufort.

GrahamPlatt wrote:

88V8 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:I seem to recall reading - and I’ve just been back on the indiegogo site to check & see that memory serves - that the bike has a “Gates Carbon Drive”. That should last, no?

Yes, it does.
Like an overgrown cogged fan belt.

I hope it will last, and probably cheap to replace when it wears.

V8

Oh I think it will. Far better than a chain. No rust, no slackening, no oiling do do and no oil on your clothes. Harley Davidson have been using belt drives for years on their motorbikes, and now BMW are too (on some models). So I think it should take pedal-power without stretching!
DOI - it’s what I’ve got on my Beaufort.

A single speed chain drive can tolerate a lot of abuse. I used one on a beater commuter for several winters with only a regular spray of WD40. By many standards it was in awful condition, but it was fully functional.

I am open to the idea that a properly designed belt would work better, but "far better" is a high hurdle. Even with no oil the belt will be filthy, just like every other part of the bike.

Also the belt for a Harley is 28mm wide. Are Gates using the same belt? (I've used chain drives with 15kW motors, should last forever on a bike, only it's not the same chain.)

9873210 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:

88V8 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:I seem to recall reading - and I’ve just been back on the indiegogo site to check & see that memory serves - that the bike has a “Gates Carbon Drive”. That should last, no?

Yes, it does.
Like an overgrown cogged fan belt.

I hope it will last, and probably cheap to replace when it wears.

V8

Oh I think it will. Far better than a chain. No rust, no slackening, no oiling do do and no oil on your clothes. Harley Davidson have been using belt drives for years on their motorbikes, and now BMW are too (on some models). So I think it should take pedal-power without stretching!
DOI - it’s what I’ve got on my Beaufort.

A single speed chain drive can tolerate a lot of abuse. I used one on a beater commuter for several winters with only a regular spray of WD40. By many standards it was in awful condition, but it was fully functional.

I am open to the idea that a properly designed belt would work better, but "far better" is a high hurdle. Even with no oil the belt will be filthy, just like every other part of the bike.

Also the belt for a Harley is 28mm wide. Are Gates using the same belt? (I've used chain drives with 15kW motors, should last forever on a bike, only it's not the same chain.)

The one's I've seen look to be half that width but otherwise the same (material & pitch)

I can't really see anything other than the belt that would wear out in normal use which removes a lot of the on going servicing on a commuter.
(as a bonus the stainless steel cogs you can get look awesome)

The only thing you'd need to know is how to break the stay to fit the belt (then slide the axle in the dropout)

I'd probably have got a bike with one for my commute if I thought there was a feasible hub with the gear range I needed
- as it is I've been periodically considering a Lekker Amsterdam+

-sd

servodude wrote:

9873210 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:

88V8 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:I seem to recall reading - and I’ve just been back on the indiegogo site to check & see that memory serves - that the bike has a “Gates Carbon Drive”. That should last, no?

Yes, it does.
Like an overgrown cogged fan belt.

I hope it will last, and probably cheap to replace when it wears.

V8

Oh I think it will. Far better than a chain. No rust, no slackening, no oiling do do and no oil on your clothes. Harley Davidson have been using belt drives for years on their motorbikes, and now BMW are too (on some models). So I think it should take pedal-power without stretching!
DOI - it’s what I’ve got on my Beaufort.

A single speed chain drive can tolerate a lot of abuse. I used one on a beater commuter for several winters with only a regular spray of WD40. By many standards it was in awful condition, but it was fully functional.

I am open to the idea that a properly designed belt would work better, but "far better" is a high hurdle. Even with no oil the belt will be filthy, just like every other part of the bike.

Also the belt for a Harley is 28mm wide. Are Gates using the same belt? (I've used chain drives with 15kW motors, should last forever on a bike, only it's not the same chain.)

The one's I've seen look to be half that width but otherwise the same (material & pitch)

I can't really see anything other than the belt that would wear out in normal use which removes a lot of the on going servicing on a commuter.
(as a bonus the stainless steel cogs you can get look awesome)

The only thing you'd need to know is how to break the stay to fit the belt (then slide the axle in the dropout)

I'd probably have got a bike with one for my commute if I thought there was a feasible hub with the gear range I needed
- as it is I've been periodically considering a Lekker Amsterdam+

-sd

The combination of gates belt drive with a pinion gearbox would fit the bill. Not cheap though

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinions-a ... -2016.html

The Gates belt is good for 20-30,000 km. As you say the only real issue is that you need a bespoke frame with the ability to split the rear triangle.

John

redsturgeon wrote:

servodude wrote:

9873210 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:

88V8 wrote:Yes, it does.
Like an overgrown cogged fan belt.

I hope it will last, and probably cheap to replace when it wears.

V8

Oh I think it will. Far better than a chain. No rust, no slackening, no oiling do do and no oil on your clothes. Harley Davidson have been using belt drives for years on their motorbikes, and now BMW are too (on some models). So I think it should take pedal-power without stretching!
DOI - it’s what I’ve got on my Beaufort.

A single speed chain drive can tolerate a lot of abuse. I used one on a beater commuter for several winters with only a regular spray of WD40. By many standards it was in awful condition, but it was fully functional.

I am open to the idea that a properly designed belt would work better, but "far better" is a high hurdle. Even with no oil the belt will be filthy, just like every other part of the bike.

Also the belt for a Harley is 28mm wide. Are Gates using the same belt? (I've used chain drives with 15kW motors, should last forever on a bike, only it's not the same chain.)

The one's I've seen look to be half that width but otherwise the same (material & pitch)

I can't really see anything other than the belt that would wear out in normal use which removes a lot of the on going servicing on a commuter.
(as a bonus the stainless steel cogs you can get look awesome)

The only thing you'd need to know is how to break the stay to fit the belt (then slide the axle in the dropout)

I'd probably have got a bike with one for my commute if I thought there was a feasible hub with the gear range I needed
- as it is I've been periodically considering a Lekker Amsterdam+

-sd

The combination of gates belt drive with a pinion gearbox would fit the bill. Not cheap though

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinions-a ... -2016.html

The Gates belt is good for 20-30,000 km. As you say the only real issue is that you need a bespoke frame with the ability to split the rear triangle.

John

Ooh they're very pretty and look a lot lighter than the nexus series or the wide range Rohloffs.

servodude wrote:

redsturgeon wrote:
The combination of gates belt drive with a pinion gearbox would fit the bill. Not cheap though

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinions-a ... -2016.html

The Gates belt is good for 20-30,000 km. As you say the only real issue is that you need a bespoke frame with the ability to split the rear triangle.

John

Ooh they're very pretty and look a lot lighter than the nexus series or the wide range Rohloffs.

Here is a bike with just that set up.

https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/the600

redsturgeon wrote:

servodude wrote:

redsturgeon wrote:
The combination of gates belt drive with a pinion gearbox would fit the bill. Not cheap though

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinions-a ... -2016.html

The Gates belt is good for 20-30,000 km. As you say the only real issue is that you need a bespoke frame with the ability to split the rear triangle.

John

Ooh they're very pretty and look a lot lighter than the nexus series or the wide range Rohloffs.

Here is a bike with just that set up.

https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/the600

Very smart set up.
I like how the break is done at the dropout

VanMoof have an excellent reputation from almost all points of view. Almost theft proof, Gates drive, hub gears (auto if required), deceptively simple design.
For cheaper bikes, Decathlon (quite a few stores in UK) has the B’Twin Tilt 500 folding e-bike.
And of course Halfords.

My local bike shop says ebikes are in short supply, so you may not have a good choice this year.

Beware that cheap ebikes can be heavy, and that the highest expense is going to be battery replacement (£400 to £500) in about 5 years. Do not overcharge, and do not over use turbo mode (heats up the battery). Cheaper bikes use cadence sensors (which rely on your pedalling to operate), and more expensive ones use torque sensing (which is smoother and better. You need gears to prevent over loading (torque) on hills.

Hardgrafter wrote:Beware that cheap ebikes can be heavy, and that the highest expense is going to be battery replacement (£400 to £500) in about 5 years. Do not overcharge, and do not over use turbo mode (heats up the battery). Cheaper bikes use cadence sensors (which rely on your pedalling to operate),....

Yes, that's how OH's Nothng works, that kicked off this topic. One has to pedal. Quite difficult, uphill.

I see Hall-effect throttles for sale, but not sure how to wire them in, so I'll leave it and see how it goes.

Yesterday with a rear carrier now in place, OH used it for the first time to go shopping. Just five miles or so.
She found it hard to manouevre with its big wheels... inertia effect... and said that when moving fast she was pedalling like Bugs Bunny - that's not exactly what she said. Well it does have no gears.

But she was not hot and bothered when she returned, as she usually was after pedalling up the hill.

As I said previously, e-bikes seem like the wild west. In five years I doubt the maker will be in business and I'll be amazed if we can buy another battery.
But it was a trial, a toe in the water. So far so good.

V8

Yesterday, with a tinge of sadness, OH's P-bike departed.

A custom-built present in 1999, Raleigh, gel saddle, spring forks, alloy rims stainless spokes, five-speed hub change... but now OH is the wrong side of 70yo too much of a puff up the hills... and it is quite hilly which is perhaps why, despite offering it locally at a peanuts price, no takers.
So it went to the charity shop.

I did rescue the bell, which was a proper ringring bell branded for the bike shop whence it came.

The E-bike continues to please. The battery lasts no more than 20 miles until it is down to 1 bar, but it was advertised as a city bike. One gets what one pays for.

The ease of the E-bike compared to the P-bike is startling. One foresees the time when P-bikes will be quaint, along with the lycra.... the 21st century's penny farthing and tweeds.

V8

88V8 wrote:Yesterday, with a tinge of sadness, OH's P-bike departed.

A custom-built present in 1999, Raleigh, gel saddle, spring forks, alloy rims stainless spokes, five-speed hub change... but now OH is the wrong side of 70yo too much of a puff up the hills... and it is quite hilly which is perhaps why, despite offering it locally at a peanuts price, no takers.
So it went to the charity shop.

I did rescue the bell, which was a proper ringring bell branded for the bike shop whence it came.

The E-bike continues to please. The battery lasts no more than 20 miles until it is down to 1 bar, but it was advertised as a city bike. One gets what one pays for.

The ease of the E-bike compared to the P-bike is startling. One foresees the time when P-bikes will be quaint, along with the lycra.... the 21st century's penny farthing and tweeds.

V8

They shoot horses don't they?

That said good bikes will find a way to stay out of landfill
- Raleigh were a bit hit and miss by the end of the 90s but it sounds like the kind of steed that could still find a practical home (5 SPD hub would be the Nexus? ) someone will probably find a use for her/them

Glad to hear the e-bike is doing well
-sd

88V8 wrote:One foresees the time when P-bikes will be quaint, along with the lycra.... the 21st century's penny farthing and tweeds.

V8

That already happened in the early 20th century, a generation after penny farthings.

Cars motorbikes and mopeds of various capabilities have been replacing bikes for a very long time.

E-bikes are another type of moped. What they bring to the table is bypassing regulations on ICE mopeds. There's no reason to believe that will end any differently than unregulated cars or motorbikes.

9873210 wrote:

88V8 wrote:One foresees the time when P-bikes will be quaint, along with the lycra.... the 21st century's penny farthing and tweeds.

V8

That already happened in the early 20th century, a generation after penny farthings.

Cars motorbikes and mopeds of various capabilities have been replacing bikes for a very long time.

E-bikes are another type of moped. What they bring to the table is bypassing regulations on ICE mopeds. There's no reason to believe that will end any differently than unregulated cars or motorbikes.

No they're not (if they are legal) as you have to pedal to get the assistance and they are limited to 15mph at which point the assist cuts off and you are on your own.

daveh wrote:No they're not (if they are legal) as you have to pedal to get the assistance and they are limited to 15mph at which point the assist cuts off and you are on your own.

Virtually all the e-bikes I encounter are clearly illegal, given away either by an absence of peddling just ‘twist and go’ (the bikes used by the food delivery couriers around here), or their excessive speed with an absence of pedalling (as used by various ‘undesirables’). But as expected, zero police enforcement.

It is incredibly rare to see a legal e-bike in use.

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:No they're not (if they are legal) as you have to pedal to get the assistance and they are limited to 15mph at which point the assist cuts off and you are on your own.

Virtually all the e-bikes I encounter are clearly illegal, given away either by an absence of peddling just ‘twist and go’ (the bikes used by the food delivery couriers around here), or their excessive speed with an absence of pedalling (as used by various ‘undesirables’). But as expected, zero police enforcement.

It is incredibly rare to see a legal e-bike in use.

The majority I've seen on my commute are legal, I've stopped and chatted to the riders. I've seen one probably illegal one as it passed me doing well over 15mph and the rider was no athlete and hardly seemed to be doing any work. Plus I've seen the food delivery ones occasionally in Aberdeen that seem to be twist and go, maybe they are legit electric motorbikes, but I don't think so.

daveh wrote:

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:No they're not (if they are legal) as you have to pedal to get the assistance and they are limited to 15mph at which point the assist cuts off and you are on your own.

Virtually all the e-bikes I encounter are clearly illegal, given away either by an absence of peddling just ‘twist and go’ (the bikes used by the food delivery couriers around here), or their excessive speed with an absence of pedalling (as used by various ‘undesirables’). But as expected, zero police enforcement.

It is incredibly rare to see a legal e-bike in use.

The majority I've seen on my commute are legal, I've stopped and chatted to the riders. I've seen one probably illegal one as it passed me doing well over 15mph and the rider was no athlete and hardly seemed to be doing any work. Plus I've seen the food delivery ones occasionally in Aberdeen that seem to be twist and go, maybe they are legit electric motorbikes, but I don't think so.

My understanding is that there are no legal ‘twist and go’ e-bikes because the electric motor isn’t assisting the pedalling so the rider is just using it as a low speed electric scooter.

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:No they're not (if they are legal) as you have to pedal to get the assistance and they are limited to 15mph at which point the assist cuts off and you are on your own.

Virtually all the e-bikes I encounter are clearly illegal, given away either by an absence of peddling just ‘twist and go’ (the bikes used by the food delivery couriers around here), or their excessive speed with an absence of pedalling (as used by various ‘undesirables’). But as expected, zero police enforcement.

It is incredibly rare to see a legal e-bike in use.

The majority I've seen on my commute are legal, I've stopped and chatted to the riders. I've seen one probably illegal one as it passed me doing well over 15mph and the rider was no athlete and hardly seemed to be doing any work. Plus I've seen the food delivery ones occasionally in Aberdeen that seem to be twist and go, maybe they are legit electric motorbikes, but I don't think so.

My understanding is that there are no legal ‘twist and go’ e-bikes because the electric motor isn’t assisting the pedalling so the rider is just using it as a low speed electric scooter.

But I assume these days you can buy a legitimate electric motorcycle or moped. That would need to be insured, licensed etc as per an ice motorcycle or moped. I've seen food delivery drivers driving ice mopeds and motorcycles and I've seen them driving electric twist and go bikes that looked very much like a moped. I'm guessing they are not legit. but don't know for certain.

daveh wrote:

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:No they're not (if they are legal) as you have to pedal to get the assistance and they are limited to 15mph at which point the assist cuts off and you are on your own.

Virtually all the e-bikes I encounter are clearly illegal, given away either by an absence of peddling just ‘twist and go’ (the bikes used by the food delivery couriers around here), or their excessive speed with an absence of pedalling (as used by various ‘undesirables’). But as expected, zero police enforcement.

It is incredibly rare to see a legal e-bike in use.

The majority I've seen on my commute are legal, I've stopped and chatted to the riders. I've seen one probably illegal one as it passed me doing well over 15mph and the rider was no athlete and hardly seemed to be doing any work. Plus I've seen the food delivery ones occasionally in Aberdeen that seem to be twist and go, maybe they are legit electric motorbikes, but I don't think so.

My understanding is that there are no legal ‘twist and go’ e-bikes because the electric motor isn’t assisting the pedalling so the rider is just using it as a low speed electric scooter.

But I assume these days you can buy a legitimate electric motorcycle or moped. That would need to be insured, licensed etc as per an ice motorcycle or moped. I've seen food delivery drivers driving ice mopeds and motorcycles and I've seen them driving electric twist and go bikes that looked very much like a moped. I'm guessing they are not legit. but don't know for certain.

Unless purchased before 2016, more than 6 years ago, twist and go bikes are illegal if used as an e-bike - https://www.axcess-electric-bikes.co.uk ... ric-bikes/

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:

AF62 wrote:

daveh wrote:

AF62 wrote:Virtually all the e-bikes I encounter are clearly illegal, given away either by an absence of peddling just ‘twist and go’ ...

The majority I've seen on my commute are legal....

My understanding is that there are no legal ‘twist and go’ e-bikes because the electric motor isn’t assisting the pedalling so the rider is just using it as a low speed electric scooter.

But I assume these days you can buy a legitimate electric motorcycle or moped.

Unless purchased before 2016, more than 6 years ago, twist and go bikes are illegal if used as an e-bike -

I did ask whether I could buy a throttle for our bike as they help starting uphill, but the makers told me they cannot sell them.
Interestingly, I see their previous bike did have a throttle option, so presumably they have had a slap on the wrist, or simply realised they're not legal in the UK.
One can buy throttles on eBay, if one has the ability to delve into the wiring, also second-hand bikes with throttles.

Unless the govt is willing to go down the line of bike number plates & registration it's pretty hard to enforce, it will take a good few accidents to make anything happen.

V8