Human alien interactions

[scrumpyjack]

maybe Elon Musk IS an alien?

[stevensfo]

maybe Elon Musk IS an alien?

Well, I know that Jacob Rees-Mogg MUST be an alien. Since whenever he opens his mouth, all we hear is static and gibberish, he's clearly communicating via telepathy and hasn't quite mastered the human way of communicating.

Steve

PS I remember the top tip in Viz: Want to experience an alien abduction? Just go for a walk in the country and drink a bottle of vodka. The next morning you'll wake up in a field with no memory of how you got there.

[odysseus2000]

Some interesting points made, most of which I have had and discarded.

The general reaction of people who I have discussed this with is for them to believe overtly or covertly that I am an idiot. They may be right. One physicist individual who has strong religious faith has ceased to speak to me, as the observations do not fit with scripture and the general view seems to be that if uap were real they would already know about them and that governments would not or could not hide such important facts.

On one point, Elon Musk is a skeptic re uap and does not believe they are alien.

My first inclination was that the reports were all coming under the influence of legal/illegal substances, but I am specifically interested in reports by likely credible witness.

The UK has conducted extensive research since the early 1950's and concluded that uap exist and are most likely natural phenomenon with no evidence of intelligent control:

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... ummary.htm

Top link for full report published in 2000 is worth a peruse.

This is a briefing document on UK uap research:

https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc ... -07-12.pdf

I am assuming that these links are genuine and not hoax, but if anyone can offer proof that they are hoax that would be super helpful.

There are a number of regular shapes detected and the UK report argues that these are likely caused by uap plasma reacting to environmental conditions. UAP have caused no reported collisions, but there have apparently been accidents when air craft have tried to chase uap which are far more agile than any known air craft.

If the UK assertion that these are purely natural phenomenon is correct UAP have perhaps some connection with ball lightening or other plasma phenomena. However, other contacts such as the tictac seen by Pilot David Fravor and here recounted in a conversation with Lex Friedman (nearly 4 hours long):

https://youtu.be/aB8zcAttP1E

suggest some kind of craft and the observation of the uap at sea level where one would expect some interaction between a charged plasma and water also weigh against the pure plasma explanation.

However, there is an absence of definitive information that shows without question that UAP are natural or un-natural and until such evidence emerges we can only try to make intelligent reasoning from the facts that we have rather than the wild speculation of an entire industry devoted to various beliefs which as of now have no factual background as far as I can determine.

One other observation that may or may not be related to UAP is cattle mutilation. When I was a project manager for a Nasa contractor there were a series of unexplained cattle mutilations in the farms around the Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama. Cows found dead with various organs removed and no sign of blood. I dismissed this as some maniac rednecks, not realising that this is a world wide phenomenon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation

In summary:

These are some of the more interesting documents and references I have found in my trawls through publicly available UAP reports. There are many more and probably a huge amount that is still secret including, so various whispers go, observations of UAP from the ground, air and space in a range of observational wavelengths and at high resolution.

I find the subject fascinating, but it is a mind field, full of speculation and difficult to verify sources and that also both provides challenges and interest. I can discard obvious physics impossibilities but there are not many, much of the literature is qualitative and too nebulous to base firm conclusions on but nevertheless interesting and one does see patterns. Whether these are real or copying is difficult to know.

Anyhow, interested in any comments, especially any that can establish all of this has natural or hoax.

Regards,

[88V8]

I think it impossible that there is no intelligent life out there, and never has been.

Now, whether it has the will and the technology to leave its native planet(s)... and whether we are within range... and a worthwhile destination considering the number of planets out there... and whether it is sending out crewed or uncrewed ships ... and whether they would recognise us as intelligent within their frame of reference... so I do not by any means exclude the possibility of alien visitation, indeed I would be amazed if it has not happened.

Although there is a window... planets rise and fall... our civilisation is a brief moment in the life of our planet.. doubtless the same in other planetary systems, so for a while they have the technical ability and then they don't, and those windows of opportunity would have to coincide with our existence and ability to recognise them when they visit.

So the opportunities for ET to visit and interact with us may not have been that frequent. After all, we cannot even converse with much of the intelligent life on our own planet, we have little understanding of the functioning of our own bodies, and for instance have only recently recognised the ability of plants to communicate with one another. We are not really that 'advanced'.

I am just thankful that none of the interplanetary visitors has so far found it necessary to zap us with the fly spray.

V8

[Itsallaguess]

I think it impossible that there is no intelligent life out there, and never has been.

Now, whether it has the will and the technology to leave its native planet(s)... and whether we are within range... and a worthwhile destination considering the number of planets out there... and whether it is sending out crewed or uncrewed ships ... and whether they would recognise us as intelligent within their frame of reference... so I do not by any means exclude the possibility of alien visitation, indeed I would be amazed if it has not happened.

Although there is a window... planets rise and fall... our civilisation is a brief moment in the life of our planet.. doubtless the same in other planetary systems, so for a while they have the technical ability and then they don't, and those windows of opportunity would have to coincide with our existence and ability to recognise them when they visit.

So the opportunities for ET to visit and interact with us may not have been that frequent.

Yep - most casual conversations about aliens tend to concentrate on the vast distances involved, but it's TIME that is likely to play just as important a part in any chances of actually bumping into intelligent life.

There's a big chance that any first-encounter will just be some sort of physical sign of a long-gone civilisation...

There's also a big chance that the long-gone civilisation might eventually turn out to be us...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[servodude]

I think it impossible that there is no intelligent life out there, and never has been.

Now, whether it has the will and the technology to leave its native planet(s)... and whether we are within range... and a worthwhile destination considering the number of planets out there... and whether it is sending out crewed or uncrewed ships ... and whether they would recognise us as intelligent within their frame of reference... so I do not by any means exclude the possibility of alien visitation, indeed I would be amazed if it has not happened.

Although there is a window... planets rise and fall... our civilisation is a brief moment in the life of our planet.. doubtless the same in other planetary systems, so for a while they have the technical ability and then they don't, and those windows of opportunity would have to coincide with our existence and ability to recognise them when they visit.

So the opportunities for ET to visit and interact with us may not have been that frequent.

Yep - most casual conversations about aliens tend to concentrate on the vast distances involved, but it's TIME that is likely to play just as important a part in any chances of actually bumping into intelligent life.

There's a big chance that any first-encounter will just be some sort of physical sign of a long-gone civilisation...

There's also a big chance that the long-gone civilisation might eventually turn out to be us...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

that "Fermi Paradox" has been keeping authors in business for a good while
- I think I first encountered it with Brin's "Crystal Spheres"

[ReformedCharacter]

Another Lex Fridman interview:

Lee Cronin: Origin of Life, Aliens, Complexity, and Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #269

Lee Cronin is a chemist at the University of Glasgow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZecQ64l-gKM

RC

[ursaminortaur]

One other observation that may or may not be related to UAP is cattle mutilation. When I was a project manager for a Nasa contractor there were a series of unexplained cattle mutilations in the farms around the Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama. Cows found dead with various organs removed and no sign of blood. I dismissed this as some maniac rednecks, not realising that this is a world wide phenomenon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation

Bear in mind that it is quite possible for a hoax perpetrated by a couple of local "rednecks" to go viral and spread worldwide. For instance the modern crop circle phenomenum which was started by Doug Bower and Dave Chorley in a wheat field in Wiltshire, England, in 1976.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/crop-circles-the-art-of-the-hoax-2524283/

[ursaminortaur]

Although there is a window... planets rise and fall... our civilisation is a brief moment in the life of our planet.. doubtless the same in other planetary systems, so for a while they have the technical ability and then they don't, and those windows of opportunity would have to coincide with our existence and ability to recognise them when they visit.

Although there will be a window for any particular planet and solar system that isn't necessarily a short window. There will surely be some solar sytems out there with multiple planets in their sun's habitable zone where once a civilisation has developed on one of the planets it will spread to one or more others more easily than in our own solar system. So even if catastrophe hits one planet the survivors on the other(s) would later be able to recolonise thus ensuring a much longer survival time for the civilisation. And if it survives long enough then it might eventually be able to get to some other solar system making its longer term survival even more likely. Even in our solar system although it is far from ideal real estate we will, assuming we survive another century or so, surely have a self sustaining large colony on Mars (and possibly on the moon) which would be large enough to recolonise the Earth if necessary.

[Midsmartin]

Those videos filmed from US aircraft look remarkable. I did read an analysis that concluded they were likely just birds; with particular differences in altitude/direction, they could be picked up like this. I don't recall the reason that the USAF hadn't already looked at that, or why their planes might not be able to tell the difference. But birds on the face of it are a more likely explanation for now.

My general thoughts are: given the vastness of space, it's pretty unlikely that any alien race would even be able to get here, given the time and energy requirements to cross interstellar space. I think it's a pain to drive to Tesco to buy some more AA batteries, but how to do you maintain a spacecraft that's tens of thousands of years from home? Given the vastness of time they'd quite likely arrive when we weren't watching - ie 10000 years ago, or in 10000 years time.
Of course the above assume to a degree a species or robot operating on human-like time scales, which may be false.

On the other hand we know with absolute certainty that people lie, hoax, make errors of judgement, hallucinate, dream etc. Cameras and other devices can fail, show artefacts etc. and their output misused, misinterpreted.
So while the evidence is at all debatable, it (to me) must always be more likely that someone has made an error in their identification, or failure to identify. Most merely photographic evidence these days must be in this category. Photoshop is more probably than Alien.

It'd be so exciting to find there was really good evidence. I don't think we have it yet. I may have made an error and just not seen it of course. I think the scientific literature would be carrying papers on the topic of any of it were remotely real.

As with anything, the time to start believing it's true is when there is really good evidence. I don't think we have that yet. Still worth looking though.

[odysseus2000]

The tictac uap witnessed by commander Fravor was also seen by 3 other people at the time and was, as his best estimate, about 17 m (50 ft) in diameter. It was also seen on radar. The chance that this observation was a bird is zero.

Yes we all know that the distances in the solar system are large and that any current technology would take several years to reach the nearest star.

However, the kinetic behaviour of uap such as the tictac are inconsistent with a reaction drive which is the physics behind all known drives.

To get the observed kinetics we need some new kind of drive that is not a reaction mechanism.

Theoretically there are several candidates for a non-reaction drive such as a mechanism that changes space time. We know this is possible with large masses and we have seen gravitational waves from huge astronomical events and it is postulated that such effects happened in the early universe, the inflation phase.

If the observations are of alien craft from beyond the solar system then it is very likely that the aliens (live or machines) have found a way to travel faster than light.

Regards,

[ReformedCharacter]

The tictac uap witnessed by commander Fravor was also seen by 3 other people at the time and was, as his best estimate, about 17 m (50 ft) in diameter. It was also seen on radar. The chance that this observation was a bird is zero.

Regards,

Yes, two different types of radar IIRC, ship and plane. I can understand one system giving odd faulty returns, but two completely different systems seems highly unlikely.

RC

[XFool]

What I find rather significant is the fact that many years ago, we had all these reports of sightings, yet today, with everyone holding a smartphone with excellent camera and video, we see pretty much nothing.

Yes, I think this is an important point. A long time ago now I pointed out that as mobile phones with cameras were becoming common, we ought in the near future to get plenty of evidence of "UFOs" if they were present - whatever they are. Now they are pretty well universal, yet we still seem to be waiting.

[odysseus2000]

What I find rather significant is the fact that many years ago, we had all these reports of sightings, yet today, with everyone holding a smartphone with excellent camera and video, we see pretty much nothing.

Yes, I think this is an important point. A long time ago now I pointed out that as mobile phones with cameras were becoming common, we ought in the near future to get plenty of evidence of "UFOs" if they were present - whatever they are. Now they are pretty well universal, yet we still seem to be waiting.

No

The Rayleigh criteria for resolution is that the best resolution one can obtain is 1.22x(lamda/D)

where lamda is the wavelengths and D is the diameter of the objective lens in same units as lamda.

A smart phone as a lens diameter of a few mm, seriously limiting the angular resolution one can get for an object that is often 100's to thousands of metres away.

There is now a new program at Harvard to build a number of cameras with objective lens of 100 mm to look upwards record. These cameras are designed to give a much better image than is possible with a smart phone due to the small objective lens diameter. The program was begun by Avi Loeb.

There is a nice section in the questions of this video regarding resolution of cameras etc (1hr 29 mins):

https://youtu.be/ArqV8TUZitQ

There is a transcript which can be read faster than watching the video.

All of the 3 speakers are worth study. Nick Pope has many years in the UK civilian mod and from 91 to 94 was responsible for the UFO program in the UK.
Ian Oxnevad, program research for the Institute of Scholars. Avi Loed from Harvard.

Regards,

[stevensfo]

What I find rather significant is the fact that many years ago, we had all these reports of sightings, yet today, with everyone holding a smartphone with excellent camera and video, we see pretty much nothing.

Yes, I think this is an important point. A long time ago now I pointed out that as mobile phones with cameras were becoming common, we ought in the near future to get plenty of evidence of "UFOs" if they were present - whatever they are. Now they are pretty well universal, yet we still seem to be waiting.

Actually, after I wrote that post I realised something that has been bugging me for years. We have a village Facebook page, and very often we receive warnings about strange white vans, cars and men nosing around houses in a suspicious manner. Despite smartphones, everybody answers that they 'didn't think to take a photo' etc etc. The only photos are of cars parked illegally near the bloody Primary school. Which I attended many decades ago before it became a fortress and cold-blooded academy!!

Maybe, by the time they've unlocked the phone, found the photo button and opened the protective case, the bleedin' UFO has already scarpered.

Steve

[GoSeigen]

What I find rather significant is the fact that many years ago, we had all these reports of sightings, yet today, with everyone holding a smartphone with excellent camera and video, we see pretty much nothing.

Yes, I think this is an important point. A long time ago now I pointed out that as mobile phones with cameras were becoming common, we ought in the near future to get plenty of evidence of "UFOs" if they were present - whatever they are. Now they are pretty well universal, yet we still seem to be waiting.

Actually, after I wrote that post I realised something that has been bugging me for years. We have a village Facebook page, and very often we receive warnings about strange white vans, cars and men nosing around houses in a suspicious manner. Despite smartphones, everybody answers that they 'didn't think to take a photo' etc etc. The only photos are of cars parked illegally near the bloody Primary school. Which I attended many decades ago before it became a fortress and cold-blooded academy!!

Maybe, by the time they've unlocked the phone, found the photo button and opened the protective case, the bleedin' UFO has already scarpered.

Steve

Whereas in the old days the aliens would see a person holding an old-fashioned SLR and obligingly hang around long enough for them to remove the camera from the case, remove the lens cover, focus the camera and get the shot?

GS

[XFool]

The tictac uap witnessed by commander Fravor was also seen by 3 other people at the time and was, as his best estimate, about 17 m (50 ft) in diameter.

Straightaway this raises lots of queries for me. How exactly did he estimate it as 50ft in diameter? Why not 5 ft or 5 inches? After all, it wasn't a thing he could identify, therefore he presumably had not seen one before. Or had had a chance to see up close, in relation to familiar objects. Did the other witnesses independently agree with his estimate?

It was also seen on radar. The chance that this observation was a bird is zero.

But was the "It" that was seen on radar the same thing that Fravor saw? How do we know?

So many questions, so few answers! These human reports of UAPs are as frustrating, puzzling and as dead-end as actually seeing a UAP.

[stevensfo]

What I find rather significant is the fact that many years ago, we had all these reports of sightings, yet today, with everyone holding a smartphone with excellent camera and video, we see pretty much nothing.

Yes, I think this is an important point. A long time ago now I pointed out that as mobile phones with cameras were becoming common, we ought in the near future to get plenty of evidence of "UFOs" if they were present - whatever they are. Now they are pretty well universal, yet we still seem to be waiting.

Actually, after I wrote that post I realised something that has been bugging me for years. We have a village Facebook page, and very often we receive warnings about strange white vans, cars and men nosing around houses in a suspicious manner. Despite smartphones, everybody answers that they 'didn't think to take a photo' etc etc. The only photos are of cars parked illegally near the bloody Primary school. Which I attended many decades ago before it became a fortress and cold-blooded academy!!

Maybe, by the time they've unlocked the phone, found the photo button and opened the protective case, the bleedin' UFO has already scarpered.

Steve

Whereas in the old days the aliens would see a person holding an old-fashioned SLR and obligingly hang around long enough for them to remove the camera from the case, remove the lens cover, focus the camera and get the shot?

GS

Exactly!

So it makes one wonder why these people with their phones permanently in their sweaty hands, can't take photos.

Same story for ghosts. It's all gone very quiet now there's no excuse for not taking a pic.

Steve

[odysseus2000]

The tictac uap witnessed by commander Fravor was also seen by 3 other people at the time and was, as his best estimate, about 17 m (50 ft) in diameter.

Straightaway this raises lots of queries for me. How exactly did he estimate it as 50ft in diameter? Why not 5 ft or 5 inches? After all, it wasn't a thing he could identify, therefore he presumably had not seen one before. Or had had a chance to see up close, in relation to familiar objects. Did the other witnesses independently agree with his estimate?

It was also seen on radar. The chance that this observation was a bird is zero.

But was the "It" that was seen on radar the same thing that Fravor saw? How do we know?

So many questions, so few answers! These human reports of UAPs are as frustrating, puzzling and as dead-end as actually seeing a UAP.

If you want to get the full Fravor experience, this nearly 4 hours pod cast is the best I know of:

https://youtu.be/aB8zcAttP1E

Regards,

[9873210]

UAP certainly exist in that there are Phenomena that are Aerial that are Unidentified.

If they are doing things that we haven't yet explain that's exciting because new explanations from physics.

If they need new physics to explain them that's EXCITING because new physics.

If they are aliens that's EXCITING!!!!!! because aliens.

But the jump from "unidentified" to "new physics" to "alien". I think you need to be more explicit at step two and three. UAP != LGM (little green men, even if they are not little or green or men).

300 years ago they would have been miracles. There are far more things that are unexplained than explained, but many people can't accept that "unknown" is a category.