Religion?

[Dod101]

I wonder about formal religion. I understand it very well (at least I think I do) but I do wonder. Take Christianity. A fellow turns up and starts apparently performing miracles. He is a street sleeper (NFA) and yet? I attended the funeral of a good friend of mine on Monday and, ever since, I have had it on my mind. Clearly a committed Christian, he was a singular gentleman for reasons that are not relevant to this post.

Afterwards, a couple of the attendees and I chatted (I had never met them before) The lady said, who was the Minister and did I attend the church. I told her the first and said yes to the second question. Then she said what time is the church on Sundays? She thought about coming along. I said in reply well that is for you but we are here anyway. I just wonder what motivated that exchange? The guy whose funeral we were at was a singularly different man but that would not do it.

I think if we forget all the religious background attached to, well religion, many of us feel a need for some sort of spiritual grounding. I do anyway and have no idea how anyone can get through life without it.

Not rational but am I that unusual?

Dod

[oldapple]

Good morning Dod. No deep philosophical answer from me but I am sorry for the loss of your good friend. I see myself as not remotely 'religious', but I do have 'faith' which has unquestionably got me through some tough times. I see faith give strength and hope to others too. On some forums, this view is unusual, but as far as I am concerned, you aren't unusual at all.

However, I'm from N Ireland and, as you know, we're all seen as a bit odd over here!

[Dod101]

Good morning Dod. No deep philosophical answer from me but I am sorry for the loss of your good friend. I see myself as not remotely 'religious', but I do have 'faith' which has unquestionably got me through some tough times. I see faith give strength and hope to others too. On some forums, this view is unusual, but as far as I am concerned, you aren't unusual at all.

However, I'm from N Ireland and, as you know, we're all seen as a bit odd over here!

Thanks for your comments. The friend whose funeral I attended still had a soft Irish accent (not from N Ireland then!). I think his family must have been part of the Scottish Protestant settlers. As far as I know he had lived in Scotland for a long time though.

Dod

[stacker512]

Hi Dod,

Wanted to first say sorry for the loss of your friend.

Regarding the questions from that lady, I wonder if it was the fact your friend was a Christian? I have heard from others, that when in company of Christians, the question of which denomination and which church one belongs to, ends up being a question brought up often, and it seems to be of some importance. Maybe it was her having a go at small talk to bond with you?


As for people needing religion or spirituality to get through in life, I've wondered how I have managed so far, as an atheist. Not implying that atheists have it harder. But what is religion actually about anyway? (**) If you take away the creator / religious text / controlling male figure (pope, bishop, etc) / brainwashing aspects, maybe one is left with a codified way to define social expectations, behaviours, morals, outlook on life? Could other "things" that are not traditionally thought of as religions, take place as a "toolbox" that forms your own "religion"?

eg. Driving and motoring related ethics, outlook on driving: MIATA = Miata Is Always The Answer. JDM Life. Sir Jackie Stewart's views on driving smoothly to not crack an egg on the car. etc.
Computers: Free Software Foundation, the power of Tux the penguin, Manifesto Of a Hacker, church of emacs, etc.
Music: people say certain bands help them - Linkin Park sometimes self-reportedly credited by some people to help them get out of depressive episodes
TV: some sci-fi like Star Trek TNG often has life lessons, viewpoints, examples of pain and suffering that is common to the human condition so much that it is portrayed as a shared sympathy by the characters and viewers.

There are things in life that we attach ourselves to, have meaning for us, helps and guides us, shapes us, makes us better people. But it doesn't have to be a traditional organised religion.

Not sure I've answered your question though

** - I've not bothered to look it up as a definition that someone made to pigdeonhole people, I'm more interested to think what this means individually to people.

[Dod101]

Thanks stacker. As I have got older I have become less and less certain that for instance Christianity has all the answers., although in fact the Bible (probably like the Koran etc) makes a very good guide for living a decent and positive life. Much of it though is merely history of long ago.

As I travel the world it is interesting the ways that different peoples seem to fill that need for something to lean on, whether it is Buddhism, Islam or the myriad of Gods and so on that the Chinese and others worship.

I will be very disappointed if there is not some form of life after death but currently it is the very long tradition that I find inspiring in Christianity. The wonderful architecture of the cathedrals, the simplicity of the country church in some remote Scottish glen and the huge range of music composed over the centuries.

Dear me, what has got into me?

Dod

[ReformedCharacter]

I think if we forget all the religious background attached to, well religion, many of us feel a need for some sort of spiritual grounding. I do anyway and have no idea how anyone can get through life without it.

Not rational but am I that unusual?

Dod

I agree with your sentiment. The evidence, closure of churches due to lack of demand for example, seems to suggest that in the UK, and perhaps the West in general, that the 'Church' is in decline. Whether that equates to a decline in people with a 'spiritual outlook' (for want of a better description) is a different matter. Religion, in the wider sense, is not rational and many people, who like to think of themselves as rational, reject religion (or spirituality) on that premise and sometimes as a badge of honour. But I do not believe humans are rational beings despite what some of us like to think. So, in my opinion, in describing your thoughts as 'not rational' you understand yourself better than those who like to think of themselves otherwise, as rational beings. Unlike oldapple, I have difficulty with the idea of 'faith', that is not a criticism of those with faith but that I personally find it a poor foundation for belief. Existence, as I perceive it, is imbued with 'divine spirit', a non-rational and unprovable concept. That probably puts me on the weirdo list

RC

[NotSure]

...I think if we forget all the religious background attached to, well religion, many of us feel a need for some sort of spiritual grounding. I do anyway and have no idea how anyone can get through life without it.

Not rational but am I that unusual?

Dod

I too am sorry for the loss of your friend.

Speaking personally, I'm an atheist. However, my values are very much "Christian".

My generation tended to have some exposure the Christianity, at least at a young age. I do wonder if Christian values can survive a complete collapse in Christian beliefs, but I would say it is possible to have the former without the latter. I do wish to appear rude, but too me, the bible is a very useful myth, and I think that every culture needs these myths, even if they do not believe them literally.

[G3lc]

I would like to believe in god/Christianity because the faiths followers seem generally to be nice people, but I find it lacks proof of so much, as of course does does much of everything, so consider myself to be an agnostic with a belief in one’s conscience, as this allows me to better cope with the unknown unknowns, perhaps this all started when I was very young at Sunday school in WW2 when we prayed to god to help us kill the germans, and it occurred to me that at the same time german boys were praying to the same god to help them kill the English.
So perhaps all good people are gods, but but but………………………

[CliffEdge]

Quite a few people I know go to church. Some of them are b*stards.

[Dod101]

Currently I am in hospital and have had no dealings with them for many many years. Like so much else, things have changed hugely, like hospital radio, the newspaper trolley and so on there is no sign of a hospital chaplain.
I had a relatively minor op a couple of days ago and had to lie in a rather uncomfortable position for a time. What came to me was not thoughts about God but Beethoven’s Eroica. It may of course come from God anyway but it did the trick for me. TheChinese expression for ‘talent’ is ‘ God given’ and I think there is something in that.
Dod

[kiloran]

Currently I am in hospital and have had no dealings with them for many many years. Like so much else, things have changed hugely, like hospital radio, the newspaper trolley and so on there is no sign of a hospital chaplain.
I had a relatively minor op a couple of days ago and had to lie in a rather uncomfortable position for a time. What came to me was not thoughts about God but Beethoven’s Eroica. It may of course come from God anyway but it did the trick for me. TheChinese expression for ‘talent’ is ‘ God given’ and I think there is something in that.
Dod

Hope you are home and running about soon, Dod

--kiloran

[gryffron]

I would like to believe in god/Christianity because the faiths followers seem generally to be nice people

If you are only a nice person because you fear punishment from God, then you are not a nice person.

[Lootman]

I would like to believe in god/Christianity because the faiths followers seem generally to be nice people

If you are only a nice person because you fear punishment from God, then you are not a nice person.

Isn't doing the right thing for a wrong reason still better than doing the wrong thing?

I am not religious but it does seem to me that the Judeo-Christian tradition and approach has been a factor in creating the most successful and prosperous nations.

[scrumpyjack]

If you are only a nice person because you fear punishment from God, then you are not a nice person.

Isn't doing the right thing for a wrong reason still better than doing the wrong thing?

I am not religious but it does seem to me that the Judeo-Christian tradition and approach has been a factor in creating the most successful and prosperous nations.

There have been plenty of horrific atrocities committed over the ages in the name of Christ and some between catholics and protestants, nominally following the same god, in the same way as millions have died in wars between Sunnis and Shias. Overall I think religion has been a big negative for mankind.

[bluedonkey]

Maybe religion just reinforces tribal feelings which are there anyway.

I went to a church school and was closely involved in the local cathedral, was confirmed, and an altar server. At about 17/18 years old became agnostic, then years later atheist. I still enjoy visiting churches though, probably due to broadly positive childhood memories and familiarity.

[Lootman]

Maybe religion just reinforces tribal feelings which are there anyway.

I went to a church school and was closely involved in the local cathedral, was confirmed, and an altar server. At about 17/18 years old became agnostic, then years later atheist. I still enjoy visiting churches though, probably due to broadly positive childhood memories and familiarity.

I got thrown out of sunday school at age 9, for bad behaviour. I took that as a sign that religion was not for me and, 60 years later, I haven't changed my mind.

[scrumpyjack]

Maybe religion just reinforces tribal feelings which are there anyway.

I went to a church school and was closely involved in the local cathedral, was confirmed, and an altar server. At about 17/18 years old became agnostic, then years later atheist. I still enjoy visiting churches though, probably due to broadly positive childhood memories and familiarity.

I went to a Cathedral School and could see the hypocrisy of it all first hand. It inoculated me against religion and put me in strong agreement with Richard Dawkins. My daughter however became a convinced Christian at Oxford (and her husband is a vicar now), One of her tutors was Richard Dawkins's wife. She had a couple of dinners with them and found him intensely irritating

[Dod101]

Isn't doing the right thing for a wrong reason still better than doing the wrong thing?

I am not religious but it does seem to me that the Judeo-Christian tradition and approach has been a factor in creating the most successful and prosperous nations.

There have been plenty of horrific atrocities committed over the ages in the name of Christ and some between catholics and protestants, nominally following the same god, in the same way as millions have died in wars between Sunnis and Shias. Overall I think religion has been a big negative for mankind.

At a much more modest level I could give you many examples where religion or more likely nearly all religions do a huge amount of charitable works and in many ways the world was a better place for these works, especially in the areas of education and health. But that was not what I was writing about when I opened this thread.
That was simply that I cannot believe that this is it. I am not strong enough to believe that I can get through this life without some sort of spiritual grounding and what is more my life would be very shallow. Saying much more would be more personal than I care to be on this sort of forum.

Dod

[Lootman]

Maybe religion just reinforces tribal feelings which are there anyway.

I went to a church school and was closely involved in the local cathedral, was confirmed, and an altar server. At about 17/18 years old became agnostic, then years later atheist. I still enjoy visiting churches though, probably due to broadly positive childhood memories and familiarity.

I went to a Cathedral School and could see the hypocrisy of it all first hand. It inoculated me against religion and put me in strong agreement with Richard Dawkins. My daughter however became a convinced Christian at Oxford (and her husband is a vicar now), One of her tutors was Richard Dawkins's wife. She had a couple of dinners with them and found him intensely irritating

My wife is Jewish (but non-religious). So technically our children are Jewish but again they are not religious. I am not sure how I would react if one of them announced suddenly that they had converted to Christianity. Reminds me of the "Jews for Jesus" group at university who were very evangelical.

I can respect Dod's search for meaning and I tend to like spiritual people, as long as they are not overbearing about it. But organised churches leave me cold. I think it should be a much more personal and non-invasive thing.

[CliffEdge]

I found "The Puzzle of God" by Peter Vardy quite helpful in relation to whether there is or isn't God amd waht it might or might not be. So I'm not an atheist as most people seem to understand the word. However most people are clueless about religion (especially a religion they believe they believe in) and what God may or may not be.

All religions I believe to be cults made up by a nutter or two and grown and perpetuated over time by other nutters and opportunists.

I don't believe aliens created the human race and are visiting in their interstellar bubble cars, crashing all over small town America in order to increase the sales of black suits.

It seems logical that having managed to exist once (that I know of) through no fault of my own, I'll probably do it again. If I'd never existed I'd find it harder to believe that I could exist again.