Outdoor LED security lamps

[superFoolish]

I'm reviewing the security at our house, and there is a 15m area at the side of our property, adjacent to the road (ours is the last house in a cul-de-sac) which is currently unlit at night. The area is an enclosed (2m-high fenced) 'side-yard', that runs for about a third of the length of the property, and it also contains a couple of sheds. My concern is that someone could leap the fence quite easily and use the cover of darkness to break into the sheds or main property.

I would like to add security lights to the area, but rather than use 'traditional' security lights, I'm wondering if LEDs might be appropriate. I like the idea of LEDs, because they are low power, and hopefully cheaper to run.

Rather than have one or two lights, I'd prefer to have several spread along the area. The benefits I foresee for this setup are that the lights can cover a specific, smaller area, rather than a couple of bright lights covering a large area (the side-yard has a spare bedroom window opening onto it, so I'd like to keep the light targeted). Also, I can position the lights so they are useful for accessing the sheds and side-door at night (currently serviced by a fairly-useless bulk-head lamp).

Finally, another benefit of low-voltage lights is that I can integrate them more easily into my home-automation system. I envisage being able to switch specific lights on / off remotely, and for the home automation system to be able to determine which lights are being triggered.

I am electrically competent, and I can create the localised movement-detection systems. The thing I really need help with is exactly what type of LED light would be suitable for this application?

Other useful information: The property is single-storey, so easy-access for installation.

I know that my fellow-Fools can be extraordinarily helpful, but please don't go to the trouble of tracking down specific brands / pricing, etc - I don't live in the UK!

[UncleEbenezer]

Outdoor "security" lights can be a serious hazard, where they dazzle/blind people going about our legitimate business on the road, the footpath, or open land, or indeed pretty much anywhere one might legitimately be. Sometimes for miles around: coming down from open land in some of our National Parks can be a major hazard because of them. LEDs being naturally purer light than other artificial sources (except lasers), I'd be concerned that they might be particularly hazardous.

Whatever you do, please ensure they're properly shielded so as not to shine out on anywhere public!

[bungeejumper]

We have five outdoor lamps in all, some of which come on automatically via an electronic timer while others need to be switched on from the hallway. They've been out there in all weathers for the last 20 years, and in all that time I doubt that we've had to replace more than ten bulbs.

But then, they're old-style low energy bulbs (fluorescents) - mostly of the "stick" sort, not the fancy compact twist variety. You can get them for about ninepence each these days because nobody wants them any more, but they've proved to be very reliable. The duds have tended to burn out in six months; the rest seem to go on and on and on......

A pleasant light, too, with an old-fashioned yellowish tinge, and at 11 watts each they don't break the bank to run. The downside is that they take 15 seconds to achieve full brightness, so they'd be no good for PIRs. (Oh yeah, we have two of those, both 120 watt halogens, in "security" locations. We wouldn't use them in a position where the public going about their lawful business would be likely to trip them.)

Over here, I believe that installing outside lighting (as a new system) comes under the Part P regulations, so we'd need to involve an electrician. Are there similar rules in your part of the world?

BJ

[gryffron]

There's no inherent reason why led lights should be "low voltage". Plenty of them run on mains. Are you suggesting running 12v outside the house and keeping the mains converter inside? That would certainly have the benefit of avoiding wiring regulations and thus any need for an electrician. There are plenty of 12v PIR lights available on Amazon/eBay.

Downsides: It is hard to run a low voltage supply any distance at all. It drops volts quickly in long wires. You would have to think through the wiring runs carefully. Also, you would be paying for the inefficiency of the convertor all the time it was on (timer switch) which i suspect would cost more than you'd save by using low voltage lights.

Gryff

[brightncheerful]

We have outdoor lights, mains wired, sensor operated. Each light is covered with a screwed-on shade and old-fashioned bulb, I don't think they're low energy or maybe early versions. Having only this week changed some halogen lights inside to LED I asked the electrician whether I could use LED bulbs outside when next a bulb needs replacing would be ok. Yes.

As for 'over-lighting' the street or whatever, I should think that if you're in an area that suffers night sky pollution then more outside lights would be a nuisance.

Incidentally, thinking wattage is apparently old-school. The new way is lumens.

[quelquod]

Incidentally, thinking wattage is apparently old-school. The new way is lumens.

If you want to know how much light you're getting, think lumens (though it's a bit more complicated than that).
if you want to know how much it's costing you, think wattage.

[Devjon]

I retired a couple of years ago. We used to look after the Electrical requirements of several industrial sites including quarries and Tarmac plants. We were in the process of replacing the 500W Halogen external lighting ( lots of it ) with LED which has finally matured to a state that withstood the rigours of the elements and the digger drivers*. We would fit industrial quality fittings but my experience is that the brands available at places such as Screwfix would be ideal. Look for an IP65 rating for weather resistance and I'd say 10Watt fittings would be more than adequate.

( The only glitch we had was one site where there was a strange intermittent earth / neutral fault which would from time to time fry the electronic drivers in the Lamp units, but that was just one particular site with mains / standby generator operation )

As another poster said, do make sure that they are angled correctly and shielded if necessary, they can be extremely dazzling to look at directly. Set them up and then go and have a wander round the perimeter / road to check for potential hazard to drivers.

[csearle]

Over here, I believe that installing outside lighting (as a new system) comes under the Part P regulations, so we'd need to involve an electrician. Are there similar rules in your part of the world?

My understaning of it in the UK is that it is only within the auspices of Part P if the wiring to the lights is outside, i.e. if the wiring comes through the wall directly into the fitting then Part P is inapplicable so no notification to the local authority is necessary. The installer (DIY or otherwise) is still supposed to produce a certificate, which involves a test or two.

As to the OP there are dozens of LED spotlights/floodlights designed for outdoor use. They are IMO great, use less power than the equivalent alternative technologies, and are getting better and better as time progresses.

Regards,
Chris
PS Many LED fittings come with a flying mains-lead so be prepared to have an IPx4 junction box somewhere.

[UncleEbenezer]

As another poster said, do make sure that they are angled correctly and shielded if necessary, they can be extremely dazzling to look at directly. Set them up and then go and have a wander round the perimeter / road to check for potential hazard to drivers.

Drivers are the lesser of your concerns: they have their own very bright lights. The bigger hazard is to those who don't: walkers and cyclists. Especially walkers, who may be on the kind of terrain where every step has to be watched carefully.

When I lived in Sheffield and would go walking in the Peaks on a Sunday, I could stay out late and take the last train back from any station on the Hope Valley line. Typically I'd come down at Edale, Hathersage or Hope, but occasionally I'd extend the walk a little further and come down west of the Pennines: I'm afraid I don't recollect which station it was (from the map it must've been Chinley or New Mills), but one of them was seriously hazardous because of someone's outside light dazzling me on the descent from Kinder Scout. That was while still on terrain where a misstep could've meant a broken leg, so I had to feel every single step very carefully as if totally blind!

It's hard to tell distances in the dark, but I never actually passed near that light. The distance from which it dazzled was certainly a matter of miles.

[superFoolish]

Thanks for the responses; some useful information for me to ponder.

With regards to regulations, a certified trades-person is required for pretty-much every electrical task in Australia. It's an urban myth that it is illegal to change a light-bulb without certification, but it's not far from the truth! In some Australian states, only a licenced electrician can change a plug on an appliance but, despite searching, I can't find the rules for my state (Western Australia). Everyone I have asked claims to 'know', but when pressed, they don't know - they just think they know!

If I need external power, I'll be getting a sparky to do it.

This is one of the reasons I like the idea of low-power devices - I want to hack into it for home-automation - I can't do that legally with a mains devices, and low-power devices are much easier and safer to control.

[GN100]

I have installed LED mains powered security lights with motion detectors. I have found, especially where exposed to the weather and probably sunlight in particular, that the translucent covers on the separate motion sensors crack after a year or two and in my case the lights then came on permanently. These separate motion sensors, if browsing LED Security Lights on Amazon, mostly seem to be a similar Chinese sourced type and some of the reviews on Amazon indicate that others have this problem. However neither the lights or the sensors are expensive so be prepared to change them from time to time. I have not yet had a bulb failure, only sensor failure.

GN

[Lootman]

Outdoor "security" lights can be a serious hazard, where they dazzle/blind people going about our legitimate business on the road, the footpath, or open land, or indeed pretty much anywhere one might legitimately be. Sometimes for miles around: coming down from open land in some of our National Parks can be a major hazard because of them. LEDs being naturally purer light than other artificial sources (except lasers), I'd be concerned that they might be particularly hazardous.

Whatever you do, please ensure they're properly shielded so as not to shine out on anywhere public!

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. We have six high-luminosity compact flourescent lamps at the front of our country house (which is in a national park). They are motion-activated not time-activated. It's away from any road so I don't think that is a concern. But the idea is both to illuminate the entrance to those who have permission to visit and to deter those who do not. As such, I want them to be bright.

It is my intention to replace them with LEDs as they blow but, so far, none have, despite coming on several times a night, usually because of animals.

I see your point but we've had no complaints in the six years since we installed them, so I feel comfortable with them for now.

[csearle]

Also, you would be paying for the inefficiency of the convertor all the time it was on (timer switch) which I suspect would cost more than you'd save by using low voltage lights.
Gryff

I think you'd have this conversion going on anyway, even with the mains fittings, the conversion down to a voltage suitable for the LEDs just happens within the fitting rather than in the separate unit.

Regards,
Chris

[newlyretired]

But then, they're old-style low energy bulbs (fluorescents) - mostly of the "stick" sort, not the fancy compact twist variety. You can get them for about ninepence each these days because nobody wants them any more, but they've proved to be very reliable. The duds have tended to burn out in six months; the rest seem to go on and on and on......

Hi BJ

I'm curious about this - when I look on Amazon, if they have cheap CFL bulbs in stock they tend to have only 1 or 2 available, and with a £4 delivery charge! So I'm interested in where you can find plentiful cheap CFL bulbs?

newlyretired

[UncleEbenezer]

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. We have six high-luminosity compact flourescent lamps at the front of our country house (which is in a national park). They are motion-activated not time-activated. It's away from any road so I don't think that is a concern. But the idea is both to illuminate the entrance to those who have permission to visit and to deter those who do not. As such, I want them to be bright.

It is my intention to replace them with LEDs as they blow but, so far, none have, despite coming on several times a night, usually because of animals.

I see your point but we've had no complaints in the six years since we installed them, so I feel comfortable with them for now.

Being away from any road a key ingredient in making a place pleasant to walk in. An outside light in a national park can be a major hazard. See my other post in this thread, later than the one you quote, for a specific example: in that case I never found the actual source of it, let alone found time to complain to the perpetrator.

[Lootman]

An outside light in a national park can be a major hazard. See my other post in this thread, later than the one you quote, for a specific example: in that case I never found the actual source of it, let alone found time to complain to the perpetrator.

Well, that gets into the whole weird thing that is the UK national parks. In the US, the government owns the land and you live or work there only as a tenant - it's almost feudal.

But in the UK, the NP lands are all privately owned and the government tries to control them "on the cheap" by restricting what you do on them. I have my lights for the safety of people I want on my land, and not for the convenience of those who trespass onto it. If you trespass and get annoyingly dazzled, then cry me a freaking river.

[UncleEbenezer]

An outside light in a national park can be a major hazard. See my other post in this thread, later than the one you quote, for a specific example: in that case I never found the actual source of it, let alone found time to complain to the perpetrator.

Well, that gets into the whole weird thing that is the UK national parks. In the US, the government owns the land and you live or work there only as a tenant - it's almost feudal.

But in the UK, the NP lands are all privately owned and the government tries to control them "on the cheap" by restricting what you do on them. I have my lights for the safety of people I want on my land, and not for the convenience of those who trespass onto it. If you trespass and get annoyingly dazzled, then cry me a freaking river.

Who said anything about trespassing?

The idea that walking on open land in a national park is trespassing mercifully died off after 1932. And I don't think even the Crown Estate own tracts of land so big as to cover the entire area blighted by a light with long sight-lines.

Which is not to say every light dazzles. Regular street lights are designed to illuminate without dazzling, and do a decent job of it. Up on Dartmoor, the mast at Princetown is an ugly light pollution blight over an area in excess of 100 square miles, but is not a dazzling hazard even when up close.

[Lootman]

The idea that walking on open land in a national park is trespassing mercifully died off after 1932. And I don't think even the Crown Estate own tracts of land so big as to cover the entire area blighted by a light with long sight-lines.

My property (also in Dartmoor, as it happens) may be within DNP but you do not have any right to enter my grounds. If you stay outside my perimeter then my lights will not bother you, but if you come through my gates then you are trespassing. The fact that it is a NP doesn't change that. As I said, NP's are essentially privately owned and, outside of public ROW's and bridleways, and open pasture, you're not allowed to roam everywhere freely. You can't just come into my garden and make yourself a cup of tea.

[supremetwo]

Being away from any road a key ingredient in making a place pleasant to walk in. An outside light in a national park can be a major hazard. See my other post in this thread, later than the one you quote, for a specific example: in that case I never found the actual source of it, let alone found time to complain to the perpetrator.

Surely you don't stumble around in the dark, especially on hazardous terrain?

Don't you have a bright LED head torch like most of the night walkers around here?

[UncleEbenezer]

Being away from any road a key ingredient in making a place pleasant to walk in. An outside light in a national park can be a major hazard. See my other post in this thread, later than the one you quote, for a specific example: in that case I never found the actual source of it, let alone found time to complain to the perpetrator.

Surely you don't stumble around in the dark, especially on hazardous terrain?

Don't you have a bright LED head torch like most of the night walkers around here?

I used to have a head torch, though that was before the days of LEDs. Not much use for open country: they suppress normal night vision. And no use at all against a vastly brighter mains-powered security light.

And who doesn't occasionally get caught out unintentionally? Especially in autumn, when the rapidly-advancing dusk catches you out. I have memories of a few long runs, much faster than I normally would, to find my way onto the Pennine Way and thus a straightforward descent into Edale (which didn't have a problem of dazzling lights) in the twilight.

[edit to add] A few years ago a friend and I were crossing Dartmoor in the dark: the walk home after a pub meal, and the moors are always nicer than the road. He had a torch. I suggested he turn it off for a more pleasant walk. He was sceptical at first, but after ten minutes agreed he could see much better without it.