Are SAD Lights beneficial

[EssDeeAitch]

Mrs SDH has been getting grumpier and grumpier as winter has progressed. She usually feels miserable in winter apparently due to shortness of the days.
Our builder friend popped in to asses a problem than needs attending to and in answer to my question "how are you doing" gave me the low down on his "fed-upness" and said his doctor suggested using a SAD light and having bought one, he is feeling much better.

I wondered if any fools have had experience with these lights, any feedback will be appreciated.

[dspp]

Mrs SDH has been getting grumpier and grumpier as winter has progressed. She usually feels miserable in winter apparently due to shortness of the days.
Our builder friend popped in to asses a problem than needs attending to and in answer to my question "how are you doing" gave me the low down on his "fed-upness" and said his doctor suggested using a SAD light and having bought one, he is feeling much better.

I wondered if any fools have had experience with these lights, any feedback will be appreciated.

We trialled the SAD ones in some windowless machinery control rooms once, where we had to do very long (12h) shifts and nightshifts, meaning that for much of winter you saw very little sun at all. One of the technicians who was a control room operator was very keen on them. They were expensive, but I approved a trial. He said they were fantastic and really improved things for him. What he did not know was the electrician who did the tube change deliberately swapped them for non-SAD ones right at the beginning of the trial. So in this case we proved the placebo effect. Because of the expense I dug into the research a bit back at the time, and I found the evidential base to be somewhat weak and biased in much the same way I have set out above, i.e. placebo effect. When we then installed the real SAD tubes none of the rest of us noticed any effect. By then the proponent didn't know whether he was coming or going.

I haven't followed it up since.

regards, dspp

[Dod101]

If you can, I suggest that you and your wife do as I do, and around the end of January take off to equatorial regions. I go to the Far East and Australia but I guess you do not need to go that far. By then, I like the relief of heat and about 12 hours of sunshine.

Our winter has just started but at least the days will star to stretch a bit in a couple of weeks.

Dod

[redsturgeon]

Mrs SDH has been getting grumpier and grumpier as winter has progressed. She usually feels miserable in winter apparently due to shortness of the days.
Our builder friend popped in to asses a problem than needs attending to and in answer to my question "how are you doing" gave me the low down on his "fed-upness" and said his doctor suggested using a SAD light and having bought one, he is feeling much better.

I wondered if any fools have had experience with these lights, any feedback will be appreciated.

We trialled the SAD ones in some windowless machinery control rooms once, where we had to do very long (12h) shifts and nightshifts, meaning that for much of winter you saw very little sun at all. One of the technicians who was a control room operator was very keen on them. They were expensive, but I approved a trial. He said they were fantastic and really improved things for him. What he did not know was the electrician who did the tube change deliberately swapped them for non-SAD ones right at the beginning of the trial. So in this case we proved the placebo effect. Because of the expense I dug into the research a bit back at the time, and I found the evidential base to be somewhat weak and biased in much the same way I have set out above, i.e. placebo effect. When we then installed the real SAD tubes none of the rest of us noticed any effect. By then the proponent didn't know whether he was coming or going.

I haven't followed it up since.

regards, dspp

Were the tubes you used rated at the same lumens as the "SAD" ones replaced?

I'm not sure the the official "SAD" lights are anything special apart from a full spectrum of at least 10,000 lux and medically certified as safe regarding UV levels.

So you may not have "proven" a placebo effect at all.

In answer to the OP question. I think the only way to see if the lights work for you is to try them. If you cannot get out in the natural daylight then SAD lights may be the only answer but getting as much daylight as possible either outdoors or through windows may also help.

John

PS SAD light boxes can be bought for a few tens of pounds so not that expensive. Also they only need to be used for twenty minutes or so a day to have an effect...if they are going to work for you.

[dspp]

Mrs SDH has been getting grumpier and grumpier as winter has progressed. She usually feels miserable in winter apparently due to shortness of the days.
Our builder friend popped in to asses a problem than needs attending to and in answer to my question "how are you doing" gave me the low down on his "fed-upness" and said his doctor suggested using a SAD light and having bought one, he is feeling much better.

I wondered if any fools have had experience with these lights, any feedback will be appreciated.

We trialled the SAD ones in some windowless machinery control rooms once, where we had to do very long (12h) shifts and nightshifts, meaning that for much of winter you saw very little sun at all. One of the technicians who was a control room operator was very keen on them. They were expensive, but I approved a trial. He said they were fantastic and really improved things for him. What he did not know was the electrician who did the tube change deliberately swapped them for non-SAD ones right at the beginning of the trial. So in this case we proved the placebo effect. Because of the expense I dug into the research a bit back at the time, and I found the evidential base to be somewhat weak and biased in much the same way I have set out above, i.e. placebo effect. When we then installed the real SAD tubes none of the rest of us noticed any effect. By then the proponent didn't know whether he was coming or going.

I haven't followed it up since.

regards, dspp

Were the tubes you used rated at the same lumens as the "SAD" ones replaced?

I'm not sure the the official "SAD" lights are anything special apart from a full spectrum of at least 10,000 lux and medically certified as safe regarding UV levels.

So you may not have "proven" a placebo effect at all.

In answer to the OP question. I think the only way to see if the lights work for you is to try them. If you cannot get out in the natural daylight then SAD lights may be the only answer but getting as much daylight as possible either outdoors or through windows may also help.

John

PS SAD light boxes can be bought for a few tens of pounds so not that expensive. Also they only need to be used for twenty minutes or so a day to have an effect...if they are going to work for you.

Yes.

From memory the key (claimed) issue is/was the frequency range of the emitted light.

We looked into it quite a lot at the time.

Back then it became clear to me that a lot of this is to do with scamming the Federal taxpayer in Alaska, if you really dug deep into it. That was a far stronger evidential signal than the medical one.

regards, dspp

[EssDeeAitch]

If you can, I suggest that you and your wife do as I do, and around the end of January take off to equatorial regions. I go to the Far East and Australia but I guess you do not need to go that far. By then, I like the relief of heat and about 12 hours of sunshine.

Our winter has just started but at least the days will star to stretch a bit in a couple of weeks.

Dod

She usually goes to South Africa at the back end of January for two to three weeks and this certainly helps, but the November/December/January period is difficult.

Other comments are not encouraging on the effectiveness of the lights, but as Redsturgeon says, they are inexpensive they may work (real or imagined, makes no difference)

[dubre]

Winter depresses me also.

We try to get foods rich in vitamin D and sometimes supplements which seem to help.

[Dod101]

If you can, I suggest that you and your wife do as I do, and around the end of January take off to equatorial regions. I go to the Far East and Australia but I guess you do not need to go that far. By then, I like the relief of heat and about 12 hours of sunshine.

Our winter has just started but at least the days will star to stretch a bit in a couple of weeks.

Dod

She usually goes to South Africa at the back end of January for two to three weeks and this certainly helps, but the November/December/January period is difficult.

Other comments are not encouraging on the effectiveness of the lights, but as Redsturgeon says, they are inexpensive they may work (real or imagined, makes no difference)

That is a good idea and as far as SAD lights go it does not matter if they have simply a placebo effect or not if it works. I must say I do not get unduly depressed (I think that word is over used) but I certainly get fed up of the winter. I live just north of the Central Belt in Scotland and today for instance it is heavy rain and high winds and very gloomy but even yesterday, a beautiful clear and sunny day, the sun only climbed reluctantly above the horizon about 9.30 am and was gone again about 3.30 pm. Any wonder that we take to drink?

I hope things improve for you and your wife.

Dod

[UncleEbenezer]

If you can, I suggest that you and your wife do as I do, and around the end of January take off to equatorial regions. I go to the Far East and Australia but I guess you do not need to go that far. By then, I like the relief of heat and about 12 hours of sunshine.

Our winter has just started but at least the days will star to stretch a bit in a couple of weeks.

Dod

The earliest dusk (as distinct from latest dawn) is this week, possibly today (I haven't looked it up). I generally feel better as soon as the lights of humbuggery get packed away and I can walk the streets without that assault on my eyes - by which time daylight hours have also begun to improve perceptibly. By late January, the worst is long gone[1].

If I'm to bugger off to escape it, I'd pick November/December, when daylight is short and decreasing - which makes it the real psychological downer to absent myself. In an ideal world, perhaps from the autumn installment of free jetlag through to epiphany.

[1] Unless you're my dad, whose view in midwinter is "Only another six months and the nights will start drawing in again".

[Dod101]

We're all different and I do not really mind the run up to Christmas and by the end of January I am really quite fed up of the winter which is why I like to get away then. Returning in early March I feel that even if it is still not spring, at least there is not that long to go. I cannot afford to be away all winter and so my timing seems to me anyway to be the best I can manage.

Dod

[EssDeeAitch]

If you can, I suggest that you and your wife do as I do, and around the end of January take off to equatorial regions. I go to the Far East and Australia but I guess you do not need to go that far. By then, I like the relief of heat and about 12 hours of sunshine.

Our winter has just started but at least the days will star to stretch a bit in a couple of weeks.

Dod

She usually goes to South Africa at the back end of January for two to three weeks and this certainly helps, but the November/December/January period is difficult.

Other comments are not encouraging on the effectiveness of the lights, but as Redsturgeon says, they are inexpensive they may work (real or imagined, makes no difference)

That is a good idea and as far as SAD lights go it does not matter if they have simply a placebo effect or not if it works. I must say I do not get unduly depressed (I think that word is over used) but I certainly get fed up of the winter. I live just north of the Central Belt in Scotland and today for instance it is heavy rain and high winds and very gloomy but even yesterday, a beautiful clear and sunny day, the sun only climbed reluctantly above the horizon about 9.30 am and was gone again about 3.30 pm. Any wonder that we take to drink?

I hope things improve for you and your wife.

Dod

Thanks Dod, here in Newcastle we can also talk of the "bleak mid-winter (and spring & autumn)". Myself, I quite like the cave effect of short dark days. I sleep better for one.

[kiloran]

Thanks Dod, here in Newcastle we can also talk of the "bleak mid-winter (and spring & autumn)".

Isn't that just a reference to a typical football season?

--kiloran

[stewamax]

I'm not sure the the official "SAD" lights are anything special apart from a full spectrum of at least 10,000 lux

And the vendors say that for even the 10,000 lux ones you need to be very close - typically 50cm

[EssDeeAitch]

Thanks Dod, here in Newcastle we can also talk of the "bleak mid-winter (and spring & autumn)".

Isn't that just a reference to a typical football season?

--kiloran

Could be worse, could be Sunderland!

[Nocton]

Just go for for a 20 min walk. It's better for you and for the planet and the light level outside, even in winter is much higher than any indoor light.
[I posted similar yesterday, but it seems to have got lost in the revamping of the site.]

[EssDeeAitch]

Just go for for a 20 min walk. It's better for you and for the planet and the light level outside, even in winter is much higher than any indoor light.
[I posted similar yesterday, but it seems to have got lost in the revamping of the site.]

Assuming she doesn't? My wife walks for at least one hour a day, regularly goes to gym and has a very healthy lifestyle. Any problems are far removed from personal lifestyle.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I don't know where to start. I could write a book on this subject and still not really say anything meaningful.

Seasonal Affective Disorder is as real as any other illness. The Canadian's in particular are very aware of this condition. I think for many years the jury was out on the cause. However, the consensus these days seems to be it is more likely to be a symptom of vitamin deficiency. In particular vitamin D3.

I have no idea where I read what I am about to tell you. The Canadians gathered their top medical people for a summit to discuss SAD. They concluded that they could prove SAD existed by looking at the prevalence of SAD related depression in Florida, The Sunshine State.

However, they were blown away to discover that the rates for depression overall were considerably higher than in Canada. And this sort of torpedoed their theory. They held another summit, scratched their heads a lot and couldn't really believe the results.

A very junior member of the summit postured a thought. "What if" the Floridians didn't actually get enough exposure to sunlight because they wore sun-cream. "What if" he suggested vitamin D3 is only made at certain times of the day? He was laughed at. But one "wise" old sage thought deeply about this and ventured to ask some questions. And boom - turns out the young "hustler" was indeed right. Turns out that Floridians were told to walk their dogs early in the morning or late in the evening when they would still get their exposure to the sun to make vitamin D3. But if they went out during the peak temperatures of the day they wore sun cream.

All the scholarly types did some experiments and proved we generally only make vitamin D3 from about 10am in the morning to about 3-4pm in the afternoon. And this makes great evolutionary sense. When our primate ancestors came down from the trees and began to walk upright they did so in areas where the climate was similar to Florida. And the best time to get the most sunlight is from 10am to 3pm. Mother nature had found a way to maximise the efficiency of making D3.

I'd suggest your wife tries some D3. It can be taken as a tablet. The NHS recommends everyone in the UK takes 400iu of D3 per day in winter.

I'd also suggest you consider a "loading dose" of 4,000iu's per day for about a month. Your wife will know if it's helping. I'd suggest you don't over-think this and worry about reports that this level can cause serious issues. I've taken 4,000 iu's per day for well over 8 years now and haven't had any problems.

You may also wish to try using a dawn simulator. They aren't expensive.

In addition there are many other reasons for the fatigue. But if it's not year round it is probable that D3 will be the culprit. If it is year round then you need to look at another highly misrepresented vitamin - B12.

I find both D3 and B12 give me energy in the winter that I have not had previously.

I use this D3

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

AiYn'U

[EssDeeAitch]

Thanks AiY, that is very useful. I will certainly get the vits you recommend.

The cost of the light is minimal so I have bought one as well (it's the BIG Xmas present, thoughtful eh?).

There really is nothing to lose with these solutions is there.

[EssDeeAitch]

Follow up on my original post.

Our son arrived from New Zealand for the month last Tuesday and my wife has cheered up significantly (he is a lovely boy). It makes me wonder whether what she needed was more exposure to son rather than sun.

Anyway, she may find the SAD light that is currently residing under the Christmas tree beneficial when she has the double jeopardy of the son leaving and the sun remaining hidden.

[DiviLuvva]

First of all, I second taking extra Vitamin D throughout winter.

Secondly, a few years ago I bought one of these daylight spectrum light bulbs for my office:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

It helped me a great deal.

Now I simply use a couple of these LED cool white bulbs all year round
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

They have a colour temperature of 5000K rather than 6500K.