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Paying coin into bank

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poundcoin
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Paying coin into bank

#23871

Postby poundcoin » January 17th, 2017, 6:27 pm

Interesting occurrence in front of me , whilst queueing in the Halifax today .

Only one young man on duty behind the counter and a smart chap taking an age , paying in what appeared to be numerous amounts from a shoe box .

When it came to various bags of coin , young assistant says "I can't take that , it's short , we only accept full bags and I've no coin to make it up ".

Smart chap : "You're a bank , surely you accept coins"

Young man "Only if it's in full coin bags"

Another bag of coin handed over . "That's short as well but I can make that up , I have some of those coins"

So ensues a lot of argy bargy , posh chap saying I've been banking with Halifax for 15 years in the next town and never had a problem . ....All my banking figures are messed up now etc etc .
I can understand his frustration but felt sorry for the pleasant young man who was obviously sticking to some instruction.
Think he said , we aren't geared up for commercial banking ?

Posh chap had to rant and rave but eventually sloped off and young assistant obviously completely rattled then messed up my very simple withdrawal of cash .

I can understand them not accepting bags of mixed coin but anyone else had a problem with coin like this ?

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23876

Postby staffordian » January 17th, 2017, 6:42 pm

I think its an increasing problem now banks see themselves as sellers of financial products rather than traditional banks. Actual money is seen as an inconvenience.

Having said that, it has, in my experience, usually been the case that banks insist that any significant quantities of coin being deposited with them should be bagged as per the quantities specified for each denomination, and anyone regularly banking coin who can't get basic counting and checking right ought to have enough sense to take a bit if spare shrapnel with them to make up any shortage.

Staffordian

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23877

Postby Lootman » January 17th, 2017, 6:43 pm

I thought the concept of "legal tender" was that if you tendered it then it could not be refused on legal grounds.

Every now and then someone protests their taxes by paying it all in pennies. Perfectly legal, I always understood.

The concept of a bank refusing money is rather adorable, however.

When I take coins to the bank I use those paper rolls that the banks themselves use. Can't refuse them that way.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23886

Postby staffordian » January 17th, 2017, 6:53 pm

Lootman wrote:I thought the concept of "legal tender" was that if you tendered it then it could not be refused on legal grounds.

Every now and then someone protests their taxes by paying it all in pennies. Perfectly legal, I always understood.

The concept of a bank refusing money is rather adorable, however.

When I take coins to the bank I use those paper rolls that the banks themselves use. Can't refuse them that way.


Legal tender is surely only a valid concept in the context of debt?

We had several members of the awkward squad who used to withdraw vast quantities of coin from their bank to pay their poll tax. Fortunately we were able to ensure sufficient cover on most occasions to ensure a cashier could slowly and carefully count and check it. The payers were usually quite annoyed that we were not quite annoyed, especially when we occasionally pointed out that we were being paid to count it whilst they were not being paid to wait whilst we did it.

And it brings to mind a tale my boss told me of some awkward so and sos who insisted on drawing cheques written in Welsh whilst he worked in the principality, years before nationalism was fashionable.

The cashiers would explain that they needed to find a Welsh speaker to check the details, but go and brew a cup of tea in the back office before returning to deal with the payment :D

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23888

Postby PinkDalek » January 17th, 2017, 7:00 pm

Lootman wrote:I thought the concept of "legal tender" was that if you tendered it then it could not be refused on legal grounds.


Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. according to the Royal Mint http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/polici ... guidelines. So in the OP, no debt and no obligation to accept.

Every now and then someone protests their taxes by paying it all in pennies. Perfectly legal, I always understood.


See the Coins table in the link. The legal tender for paying in 1ps and 2ps is 20p.

Incidentally and if of interest, the Board of Inland Revenue v. Haddock case relating to the payment of a cheque written on a cow is described here:

http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/cowcheck.asp

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23900

Postby midnightcatprowl » January 17th, 2017, 7:30 pm

it has, in my experience, usually been the case that banks insist that any significant quantities of coin being deposited with them should be bagged as per the quantities specified for each denomination, and anyone regularly banking coin who can't get basic counting and checking right ought to have enough sense to take a bit if spare shrapnel with them to make up any shortage.


This is certainly correct for business banking and, in the past, I found it to be the same for depositing cash after charity collections. Until I closed my shop earlier this year I used to deposit cheques and cash to my Co-operative Bank Business Account via the Post Office. The situation seemed to be quite clear. Deposits of coin were on the basis that each bag held only one type of coin e.g. £1 or 1p or 2p or 5p etc etc with each bag containing the amount stated on the outside. I have such a bag in front of me at the moment. It states clearly at the top 'No mixed coin please' and then shows that you can put in it:

£20 in pound coins or
£10 in silver (50p or 20p but not both) or
£5 in silver (10 or 5p but not both) or
£1 bronze (2p or 1p but not both)

(I think it must be rather an old bag as it has no provision for £2 coins which newer ones do), the issue is though that the bag has to contain the £20 or £10 or £5 or £1 and not just part of those amounts. The bags are checked by weight and not by counting the contents. If you see business people banking who have to deal with a lot of coin you'll find that they always have some change ready so that if a bag is short when weighed they quickly pass over the coins to make it up to weight.

Now certainly if I handed over all my correctly filled bags if I wanted to deposit a very exact amount for some reason (maybe after a special event) and I had 36p in various coins which were extra to the contents of the bags then the PO staff would quickly count the coins and accept them as part of the total for deposit but they certainly would not start juggling with part filled bags or bags filled to the correct amount but with mixed coinage. It isn't their job to do so for business accounts nor for charity accounts and I think this is reasonable both to keep the cost of business/charity banking down and for the sake of the people in the queue behind you. I think everyone with a business account understand this - or would do if they read the terms and conditions for their account - and certainly in days gone by when I organised an annual Christian Aid collection the instructions to organisers made it perfectly clear how coinage must be counted, bagged up and presented at the bank or PO counter.

Maybe the rules are different for personal accounts. I have a personal account with The Halifax but I've never tried to pay cash into it so couldn't comment on that issue.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23903

Postby richlist » January 17th, 2017, 7:38 pm

Seems the TSB are happy to accept coins. I paid £84 in today with no problem.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23912

Postby poundcoin » January 17th, 2017, 8:03 pm

Like Lynn above , when I ran my shop ( and we paid in vast amounts of coin on occasion) , I usually had loose change in my pocket to make up any shortages .
The young man in Halifax was weighing the coin bags and because he had some loose coin of one denomination , you do wonder why he couldn't accept this odd amount of a different denomination and put that in his drawer too .

Conversely , if you wanted to draw out (say) £27.79 to pay a bill elsewhere , it would appear Halifax would struggle to oblige ? Though I suppose this would only apply to a business or charity where you had to account for someone elses money .

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23923

Postby Lootman » January 17th, 2017, 8:33 pm

staffordian wrote:Legal tender is surely only a valid concept in the context of debt?

Alright then. But could I not argue that any and every payment is, in a sense, the satisfaction of a debt?

So for example, I walk into Tesco and assume custody of a cabbage. I proceed to the cashier whereupon I declare my putative ownership of the asset, said cabbage, which thereby creates a corresponding liability - a debt of one pound. I then proffer 100 pennies as legal tender in settlement of that debt.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23949

Postby Clitheroekid » January 17th, 2017, 9:18 pm

Lootman wrote:
staffordian wrote:Legal tender is surely only a valid concept in the context of debt?
But could I not argue that any and every payment is, in a sense, the satisfaction of a debt?

No. How is depositing money into a bank satisfaction of a debt?

So for example, I walk into Tesco and assume custody of a cabbage. I proceed to the cashier whereupon I declare my putative ownership of the asset, said cabbage, which thereby creates a corresponding liability - a debt of one pound. I then proffer 100 pennies as legal tender in settlement of that debt.

But as has already been pointed out above proffering 100 pennies is not legal tender, as the maximum legal tender in pennies is 20p.

In any case, it's not satisfaction of a debt, because until Tesco have agreed to sell the cabbage to you there is no debt. If you offer the cashier 100 pennies she's quite entitled to decline your offer and refuse to sell you the cabbage - though I would hope that in doing so she would use language that was sufficiently robust to deter you from shopping there again!

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23956

Postby Lootman » January 17th, 2017, 9:47 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:it's not satisfaction of a debt, because until Tesco have agreed to sell the cabbage to you there is no debt

But surely, if Tesco's has a cabbage with a price tag of a pound on it, then they are agreeing to sell it at that price. By placing it in my trolley I am declaring my intention to accept their offer. In return I create a debt, which I then satisfy at the till by paying my one pound debt.

This becomes a rather more important issue when something has its price marked wrongly in a shop. My wife sent me out to buy a cashmere cardigan before Christmas (yes, lame I know, she told me what to get her). Anyway I get to the shop and immediately notice that the tags are far too cheap - about a third of the price I had been told it would cost.

I proceed to the till and present the item. The cashier looks at me in a funny way, but processes the transaction at the price stated. I inferred that she recognised the mistake but accepted that the stated price must be allowed to stand.

Clitheroekid wrote: I would hope that in doing so she would use language that was sufficiently robust to deter you from shopping there again!

I'm more a Waitrose person anyway. In practice I find that shops really appreciate it when you give them a lot of loose change. It helps them deal with the chap who comes in to buy a cabbage and offers up a fifty quid note.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23959

Postby PinkDalek » January 17th, 2017, 9:55 pm

Lootman wrote:I proceed to the till and present the item. The cashier looks at me in a funny way, but processes the transaction at the price stated. I inferred that she recognised the mistake but accepted that the stated price must be allowed to stand.


I'm never sure if you are being entertaining or deliberately contrary:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consu ... ong-price/

If the cashier realises the mistake they don't have to sell at the incorrect price.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23987

Postby Lootman » January 17th, 2017, 11:31 pm

PinkDalek wrote:I'm never sure if you are being entertaining or deliberately contrary:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consu ... ong-price/

If the cashier realises the mistake they don't have to sell at the incorrect price.

Not sure I'd ever rely on CAB for legal advice, as well meaning as their (invariably) middle-aged female volunteers surely are. But as always with legal questions, there are usually two answers. The first is what the letter of the law says. The second is what actually happens in practice.

It's possible that technically, academically and theoretically, a cashier is entitled to refuse to sell an item at a price that is evidently marked "wrong". No doubt if it were a Tiffany diamond tiara priced at 30p, that would happen. On Barnsley High Street on a wet, cold February Tuesday with a minimum wage cashier; not so much. As it happens this was on South Moulton Street, W1., and the 360 quid item went through for 120. I should have bought three.

In my 50 shopping years on this planet I have never, ever arrived at a till and been refused at the marked price. So are you correct technically? No doubt. Well done. Does it make a flying fig of difference 99.99% of the time? I submit - nope.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23996

Postby PinkDalek » January 17th, 2017, 11:50 pm

I'll go for the deliberately contrary option then! :roll:

There have been plenty of reports of mispricing, both online and in shops, where the retailers have refused to sell at the incorrect price advertised. Contarily, others have accepted their mistake and taken it on the chin.

Well done you though for getting them on the cheap. By the way, it is South Molton Street.

Why you have to describe CAB volunteers as you did I can only guess but presumably you have more knowledge of them than I do.

Up to recently, I thought we were all getting on fine but, to coin a recent phrase of yours, "that's my last word on the subject".

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#23998

Postby Lootman » January 17th, 2017, 11:54 pm

PinkDalek wrote:Up to recently, I thought we were all getting on fine but, to coin a recent phrase of yours, "that's my last word on the subject".

We're all getting on fine. Nothing wrong with a little lively disagreement - it's not TMF, remember? And I feel sure you'll get me next time ;)

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#24001

Postby chas49 » January 18th, 2017, 12:09 am

Lootman wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:Up to recently, I thought we were all getting on fine but, to coin a recent phrase of yours, "that's my last word on the subject".

We're all getting on fine. Nothing wrong with a little lively disagreement - it's not TMF, remember? And I feel sure you'll get me next time ;)


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Re: Paying coin into bank

#24072

Postby Loir » January 18th, 2017, 10:43 am

I have an HSBC account and several of their branches have machines that accept coins. They have to be paid into an account. Only problem is they frequently go faulty and there is no way to find out before going to the branch.

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#24076

Postby melonfool » January 18th, 2017, 10:46 am

Lootman wrote:
Clitheroekid wrote:it's not satisfaction of a debt, because until Tesco have agreed to sell the cabbage to you there is no debt

But surely, if Tesco's has a cabbage with a price tag of a pound on it, then they are agreeing to sell it at that price.


No. It is well established that goods 'for sale' in shops are just 'invitation to treat'. No debt is created by that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_Society_of_GB_v_Boots_Cash_Chemists_(Southern)_Ltd

Mel

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#24147

Postby Lootman » January 18th, 2017, 2:32 pm

melonfool wrote:No. It is well established that goods 'for sale' in shops are just 'invitation to treat'. No debt is created by that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_Society_of_GB_v_Boots_Cash_Chemists_(Southern)_Ltd

OK, that's interesting. The article ends by still raising some doubt about the interpretation however, here:

"Whilst this case did uphold the legal concept of invitation to treat way back in 1953, some jurisdictions have since enacted legislation in either consumer protection or fair trading that would either make such a situation a legally binding offer by the retailer, or an offence for the retailer to refuse to carry out the transaction (bait advertising or misleading/deceptive conduct).

The concept of invitation to treat can still be used for some situations, for example for things outside their control such as a customer switching price tags, and where it would be illegal to carry out the transaction such as selling alcohol to a minor."

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Re: Paying coin into bank

#24670

Postby Clitheroekid » January 20th, 2017, 11:12 am

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:No. It is well established that goods 'for sale' in shops are just 'invitation to treat'. No debt is created by that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_Society_of_GB_v_Boots_Cash_Chemists_(Southern)_Ltd

OK, that's interesting. The article ends by still raising some doubt about the interpretation however, here:

"Whilst this case did uphold the legal concept of invitation to treat way back in 1953, some jurisdictions have since enacted legislation in either consumer protection or fair trading that would either make such a situation a legally binding offer by the retailer, or an offence for the retailer to refuse to carry out the transaction (bait advertising or misleading/deceptive conduct).

The reference is to `some jurisdictions'. This discussion relates to the UK, and there is definitely no doubt about the interpretation in English law.


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