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UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

Green investment room for those with a green conscience or following environmental, social and governance (ESG) principles
MarkARK
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628217

Postby MarkARK » November 17th, 2023, 2:21 pm

Just listened to an interesting podcast, Merryn Somerset Webb talking to Barry Norris of Argonaut Absolute Return Fund.

He is currently shorting the European wind industry.

Worth looking it up IMO.

Itsallaguess
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628219

Postby Itsallaguess » November 17th, 2023, 2:32 pm

MarkARK wrote:
Just listened to an interesting podcast, Merryn Somerset Webb talking to Barry Norris of Argonaut Absolute Return Fund.

He is currently shorting the European wind industry.

Worth looking it up IMO.


That Merryn Talks Money podcast episode is called 'Hedge Fund Boss’s ‘Moral Case’ for Fossil Fuel Investing' (17th November 2023), and the 46 minute episode is available on the following links -

https://open.spotify.com/episode/79Lg9VMp7A3NC6NNpZQxpI

https://uk.radio.net/podcast/merryn-talks-money

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

jaizan
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628220

Postby jaizan » November 17th, 2023, 2:33 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:Why do you claim that there is too much? It's not that long ago that there were serious concerns that we would have enough energy to meet demand.

The problem is obviously that wind power is intermittent. We can certainly have too much unreliable energy output.

If we fill the North Sea with wind turbines and everyone has heat pumps, how would we heat houses when the wind isn't blowing for a few days ?

No one has the answer.
Currently we use gas as a backup, but that's not zero carbon and paying for 2 power stations instead of 1 is expensive.

As for zero carbon, there simply isn't enough lithium to provide battery storage for a few days.

So we need better solutions than wind.
I would start with an inquiry into why nuclear power is so expensive and a project to benchmark the nuclear prices in other parts of the world.

As for criticizing the government, that's fair. However, the opposition seem at least as clueless when it comes to energy policy. Stuffing the House of Commons full of graduates in PPE does not lead to good decision making.

Urbandreamer
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628232

Postby Urbandreamer » November 17th, 2023, 3:11 pm

jaizan wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Why do you claim that there is too much? It's not that long ago that there were serious concerns that we would have enough energy to meet demand.

The problem is obviously that wind power is intermittent. We can certainly have too much unreliable energy output.


And the rest of your post explains that you are complaining about a shortage or the costs of alternatives to wind. NOT explaining how having a surplus of anything is necessarily a problem.

As for why nuclear is expensive, where to start?
Unlike gas nobody wants you just pumping the effluent into the environment. Instead you have to find and fund a means of dealing with it. I do hope that you realize that people are paid to guard the waste.
From 2019
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ear-legacy
Costs are currently around £3 billion annually.


Of course I suspect that you actually meant the capital costs. That's partially due to safety regulations and inspections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_fo ... Regulation
As of 2021 it had about 650 staff and a budget of £95.05 million which was largely cost-recovered from users with a 2% grant from the DWP.


The large nuclear power stations that we currently like are bespoke creations which contain parts supplied by monopoly contractors. Why? Well you have to go to the only company that can provide the parts.
https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/nuclea ... st-reactor
The reactor has been built in France by Framatome; the same nuclear engineering company which built Britain’s last nuclear reactor, at Sizewell B in 1991.


Then of course you have the cost of the fuel, though I believe that's a minor cost at the moment.

Possibly we should just pump the untreated waste out to sea as we use to do.
https://www.epa.ie/our-services/monitor ... ellafield/
Discharges into the Irish Sea peaked in the mid-1970s and have dropped significantly in recent years. This is as a result of improved waste treatment facilities at Sellafield, which convert much of this radioactive waste into a solid for long-term storage.


We don't in fact need an inquiry, anymore than we would need one into why HS2 was costing so much. The facts are well known. If we want nuclear to be cheaper, we need to relax our safety standards, mass produce parts so that they can be made cheaply and find a cheap way to deal with the waste.

MickR
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628242

Postby MickR » November 17th, 2023, 3:33 pm

jaizan wrote:
If we fill the North Sea with wind turbines and everyone has heat pumps, how would we heat houses when the wind isn't blowing for a few days ?

No one has the answer.


This is untrue.

There are loads of different technologies and solutions being trialled to overcome the issue of storing the excess energy from the wind farms, to use when the wind isn't blowing. What we don't have at the moment is a solution that is both scalable and cost effective

my favourite at the moment is to use the excess energy from the wind and solar farms to create Hydrogen. There is a proposal going through planning at the moment for Dogger Bank D to be used to power a Hydrogen Electrolysis plant on the East Coast. The Hydrogen will be stored underground, same as the way we store natural gas through the summer, then can be used for power generation as and when required.

https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/world ... -1-1399479

There are other development in battery technology that move away from Lithium. There are so many companies and universities working in this area because of the massive financial benefits it will acrue. These WILL come to fruition over the next 10 or 15 years.

Everybody knows that wind alone isn't the answer, but there's a massive opportunity to come up with solutions that will work alongside wind and solar generation. The UK needs to be at the forefront of developing these solutions, and provide a market for companies to commit budgets to explore and build these solutions.

I really dislike this head in the sand type mentality. reminds me of the complaining about the advent of the railways in the early C19th, when a horse is just as good, doesn't need coal or rails, only takes 10 minutes to get ready, and provides fertiliser for the vegetable patch.

Remember, necessity is the mother of invention

Tedx
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628247

Postby Tedx » November 17th, 2023, 3:46 pm

MickR wrote:
jaizan wrote:
If we fill the North Sea with wind turbines and everyone has heat pumps, how would we heat houses when the wind isn't blowing for a few days ?

No one has the answer.


This is untrue.

There are loads of different technologies and solutions being trialled to overcome the issue of storing the excess energy from the wind farms, to use when the wind isn't blowing. What we don't have at the moment is a solution that is both scalable and cost effective

my favourite at the moment is to use the excess energy from the wind and solar farms to create Hydrogen. There is a proposal going through planning at the moment for Dogger Bank D to be used to power a Hydrogen Electrolysis plant on the East Coast. The Hydrogen will be stored underground, same as the way we store natural gas through the summer, then can be used for power generation as and when required.

https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/world ... -1-1399479

There are other development in battery technology that move away from Lithium. There are so many companies and universities working in this area because of the massive financial benefits it will acrue. These WILL come to fruition over the next 10 or 15 years.

Everybody knows that wind alone isn't the answer, but there's a massive opportunity to come up with solutions that will work alongside wind and solar generation. The UK needs to be at the forefront of developing these solutions, and provide a market for companies to commit budgets to explore and build these solutions.

I really dislike this head in the sand type mentality. reminds me of the complaining about the advent of the railways in the early C19th, when a horse is just as good, doesn't need coal or rails, only takes 10 minutes to get ready, and provides fertiliser for the vegetable patch.

Remember, necessity is the mother of invention


Spot on. And remember, none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.

None of this is new.

Howard
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628264

Postby Howard » November 17th, 2023, 5:06 pm

Article about National Grid's plans for infrastructure upgrades. I found it interesting, particularly the comparison of costs of fault repair for pylons vs undersea cables.

"Why electricity pylons in Essex are the front line in the battle to hit net zero."

https://news.sky.com/story/why-electric ... o-13009761

regards

Howard

GoSeigen
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628282

Postby GoSeigen » November 17th, 2023, 6:59 pm

Tedx wrote:Spot on. And remember, none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.

None of this is new.


Hilarious. How much of UK daily energy demand is stored? Serious question, answer as a percentage please.


Can, can, can, can... So what? We don't do any of it and won't do any of it in a hurry and it's all wasteful.


GS

Urbandreamer
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628287

Postby Urbandreamer » November 17th, 2023, 7:29 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Tedx wrote:Spot on. And remember, none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.

None of this is new.


Hilarious. How much of UK daily energy demand is stored? Serious question, answer as a percentage please.


Can, can, can, can... So what? We don't do any of it and won't do any of it in a hurry and it's all wasteful.


GS


Back when I held SSE, they had plans for pumped storage. Plans only, because it didn't make "economic" sense at the time. over a decade later they may have started work on the project.

In February 2012, Coire Glas Pumped Storage Scheme Environmental Statement (ES) was
submitted in support of an application for consent under the Electricity Act 1989 to
construct and operate a 600 MW hydroelectric pumped storage scheme at Coire Glas.
Section 36 consent was granted on 13th December 2013, with an extension to this granted
by Scottish Ministers on 14th March 2017, which is due to expire on 12th December 2021
(referred to hereafter as The Consented Development)

https://www.sserenewables.com/media/sje ... 463255.pdf

Well it may make economic sense now.
https://www.coireglas.com/project

88V8
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628296

Postby 88V8 » November 17th, 2023, 8:18 pm

Tedx wrote:....none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.
None of this is new.

So how come we are having to shed unwanted 'green' power by paying windfarm owners to burn it?

At the moment, Cameron had it right when he referred to renewables as The Green Crap.

V8

Urbandreamer
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#628299

Postby Urbandreamer » November 17th, 2023, 8:43 pm

88V8 wrote:
Tedx wrote:....none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.
None of this is new.

So how come we are having to shed unwanted 'green' power by paying windfarm owners to burn it?

At the moment, Cameron had it right when he referred to renewables as The Green Crap.

V8


Because that's the regulatory system that we have in this country. In Texas they sell such electricity.

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsig ... renewables
This off-peak demand crypto miners created allows renewable projects to sell energy that would otherwise be curtailed and increase overall utilization of renewable energy across the entire grid, miners and analysis said. And that relationship improves the margins for renewable developers, incentivizing more renewables to come to Texas.


However if you rewind to the start of the thread you will discover that is NOT possible in this country, BECAUSE the government want a different system in place here.

This thread is about renewable energy, rather than crypto mining, but a brief search will show that all over the world it is being used as a customer of last resort.

Ideally we wish to displace fuels that are burned as a means to combat climate change. That means that ideally we want more wind capacity than we use, for when the wind is not blowing at it's maximum. As you note this can mean that more electricity is produced on those very windy days. It also happens that excess production can be an issue with nuclear energy.

Nuclear’s large volume and always-on nature has always been as much of a management challenge as a benefit. It is predictable, but has always run the risk of tipping the system into oversupply at times (such as overnight) when demand is low.

https://www.neimagazine.com/features/fe ... -11210843/

Look folks, when it's not politics it's engineering.

ashdeep
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#666910

Postby ashdeep » June 1st, 2024, 6:55 am

UK subsidies for offshore wind farms are expected to increase due to rising costs. This move aims to support renewable energy growth despite financial challenges. Higher subsidies could encourage investment in clean energy, helping the UK meet its environmental targets and reduce carbon emissions.

Urbandreamer
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#666917

Postby Urbandreamer » June 1st, 2024, 8:05 am

ashdeep wrote:UK subsidies for offshore wind farms are expected to increase due to rising costs. This move aims to support renewable energy growth despite financial challenges. Higher subsidies could encourage investment in clean energy, helping the UK meet its environmental targets and reduce carbon emissions.


A link rather than a bald claim would be appreciated.

Is it your opinion? The opinion of the Sun newspaper? The FT?
Are there any numbers?
What is meant by "subsidies" and how are they implemented?

daveh
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#667029

Postby daveh » June 2nd, 2024, 6:52 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
ashdeep wrote:UK subsidies for offshore wind farms are expected to increase due to rising costs. This move aims to support renewable energy growth despite financial challenges. Higher subsidies could encourage investment in clean energy, helping the UK meet its environmental targets and reduce carbon emissions.


A link rather than a bald claim would be appreciated.

Is it your opinion? The opinion of the Sun newspaper? The FT?
Are there any numbers?
What is meant by "subsidies" and how are they implemented?

I think it was in The Times, at least Google fed me a link to a Times article with that headline. I didn't read it as generally it's behind a paywall as I'm not a subscriber.

Without reading it I'm dubious of the accuracy as the papers often produce biased opinion on green issues depending on their politics. But yes a link would be helpful.

Urbandreamer
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#667030

Postby Urbandreamer » June 2nd, 2024, 7:38 am

daveh wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
A link rather than a bald claim would be appreciated.

Is it your opinion? The opinion of the Sun newspaper? The FT?
Are there any numbers?
What is meant by "subsidies" and how are they implemented?

I think it was in The Times, at least Google fed me a link to a Times article with that headline. I didn't read it as generally it's behind a paywall as I'm not a subscriber.

Without reading it I'm dubious of the accuracy as the papers often produce biased opinion on green issues depending on their politics. But yes a link would be helpful.


Dubious of the accuracy? Wind energy (along with nuclear) is currently suffering a "windfall" tax and the word "subsidy" is still being bandied about. I confess that I thought that the current system was one of Contracts For Difference. Where the government guarantees a minimum payment for the electricity, but skims off the profit if the electricity price exceeds that. Oh and then, as said, there is the windfall tax.

Last auction the price was set that low, that bidding to buy the rights to build a wind farm would ensure losses for those who did so. Some "subsidy"! Naturally it was a fiasco and nobody bid. The government had to raise the CfD price to a point where people could make money.

Here is a link about the current "subsidy" scheme. Again sadly not free from political bias. But at least the figures will be honest.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over ... gy-auction

The 2-way design of the scheme also protects consumers and businesses from future uncertainty on the global energy market. This is because when wholesale electricity prices are higher than the agreed CfD price, generators pay back into the scheme. This was seen over Winter 2022/2023, when CfD payments reduced the amount needed to fund our energy support schemes by around £18 per typical household.


We will have to wait until September before we know if companies feel that they will make a loss or a profit at the new CfD price, sorry "subsidy".

Gerry557
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Re: UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

#667039

Postby Gerry557 » June 2nd, 2024, 9:36 am

With Labour favourites to be the next government and plans to do GB energy which is apparently going to be green energy surely that will involve tax payers money.

I don't know what term they will call this. Investment, subsidy, theft :o or public interest.

This will compete with other green energy providers I'm assuming. I don't know what implications that will have on investment from the private sectors


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