The Lemon Fool

Our cars seem to be heading down the electric route. I can't help thinking that this is unsustainable.

I've yet to be convinced that batteries will achieve the energy density required to replace, like-for-like, the performance of petrol/diesel engines. I would like to be persuaded, but simply hoping wouldn't really do it for me. Also, moving electricity around converts some of it into heat.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, can be tanked, so I believe the whole range angst thing becomes a non-issue. If I were to predict the future I'd say that clusters of wind-turbines, at sea, would use the electrical energy to split sea water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen would be piped (or shipped) to the land where it would be further distributed to stations to fuel our cars etc.

Chris

csearle wrote:Our cars seem to be heading down the electric route. I can't help thinking that this is unsustainable.

I've yet to be convinced that batteries will achieve the energy density required to replace, like-for-like, the performance of petrol/diesel engines. I would like to be persuaded, but simply hoping wouldn't really do it for me. Also, moving electricity around converts some of it heat.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, can be tanked, so I believe the whole range angst thing becomes a non-issue. If I were to predict the future I'd say that clusters of wind-turbines, at sea, would use the electrical energy to split sea water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen would be piped (or shipped) to the land where it would be further distributed to stations to fuel our cars etc.

Chris

It would also save on a total rebuild of the grid which will be under enough stress from heat pumps, do like my boiler though.

They dug up the gas pipes in our local village to renew the pipes and while they were doing it made them suitable for carrying hydrogen.

CliffEdge wrote:They dug up the gas pipes in our local village to renew the pipes and while they were doing it made them suitable for carrying hydrogen.

Fat chance of that ever happening. We have far better things to do with H than burn it in gas boilers to heat our homes.

20% H 80% methane could work though, according to a chemist mate of mine.

Mike4 wrote:Fat chance of that ever happening. We have far better things to do with H than burn it in gas boilers to heat our homes.

Like what?

csearle wrote:I've yet to be convinced that batteries will achieve the energy density required to replace, like-for-like, the performance of petrol/diesel engines. I would like to be persuaded, but simply hoping wouldn't really do it for me.

Chris

This depends on your performance criteria. If you are interested in 0-60 times then the electric vehicle wins, if you consider the ability to go around a corner important then the ICE (internal combustion) engine vehicle generally wins (just) . If you're interested in getting from A-B with minimum anxiety and angst the the ICE wins largely due to very fast refuelling times and long range.

However there are a bunch of different battery technologies knocking on the door of the current Li-Ion incumbents. They all have different trade-off's at the current time and will change the playing field

For instance a Li-Ion system might give you 250 miles range and take 12 hours to repeatably charge from empty to full.
An alternative chemistry battery in the near future might give you 100 miles range and charge in 5 minutes empty to full.
Whether this is useful or interesting to you will depend on your anticipated usage. In the future the battery type may well be on of the tick boxes on the options list.
A good source of info is available at https://www.sciencedaily.com/news/matte ... batteries/

If you are still set on a hydrogen future then consider investing in Bernard Mathews or similar.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... her_Fibers

csearle wrote:Our cars seem to be heading down the electric route. I can't help thinking that this is unsustainable.

I've yet to be convinced that batteries will achieve the energy density required to replace, like-for-like, the performance of petrol/diesel engines. I would like to be persuaded, but simply hoping wouldn't really do it for me. Also, moving electricity around converts some of it heat.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, can be tanked, so I believe the whole range angst thing becomes a non-issue. If I were to predict the future I'd say that clusters of wind-turbines, at sea, would use the electrical energy to split sea water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen would be piped (or shipped) to the land where it would be further distributed to stations to fuel our cars etc.

Chris

I too have always felt leccy cars are a blind alley. Not only for energy density reasons but speed of charging too. Even if we developed batts that could be charged up in five mins, there is prolly not enough copper in the world for all the 2" diameter cables necessary and the grid would be totally overwhelmed!

I find it amusing that with EVs, the term MPH doesn't just mean the speed they go along at, it can also mean the rate at which they are being charged

csearle wrote:I've yet to be convinced that batteries will achieve the energy density required to replace, like-for-like, the performance of petrol/diesel engines. I would like to be persuaded, but simply hoping wouldn't really do it for me. Also, moving electricity around converts some of it heat.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, can be tanked, so I believe the whole range angst thing becomes a non-issue.

Range anxiety isn't actually a problem for the vast majority the vast majority of the time, as most private cars are used, most of the time, as just runabouts for short journeys.

For longer journeys the technology does appear to be there to load up 300 miles worth of charge in 18 minutes*. On the motorway that's a cramp relieving stretch, a pee and a coffee every four hours. It is, of course, a matter of availability of ultra-rapid chargers and of cost of compatible cars.

But in any case, the two aren't exclusive. I've heard it mooted that most runabout type cars will be battery electric while long-distance-type cars and the likes of HGVs will tend to being Hindenburgs on wheels.

* https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/303719/fast-charging-or-rapid-charging-your-guide-to-electric-car-charger-types

CliffEdge wrote:

Mike4 wrote:Fat chance of that ever happening. We have far better things to do with H than burn it in gas boilers to heat our homes.

Like what?

Chemical plants, oil refineries and the like, which need a chemical reagent and not just an energy source. They can't substitute hydrogen for batteries, so most of our (relatively, for the next 10-20 years at least) limited supplies of hydrogen will go into chemical plants rather than being wasted in applications that have an alternative to hydrogen. Yes there will be niche uses for hydrogen in long-distance transport, but if you just want "energy" rather than a reagent, you'll mostly be using electricity rather than hydrogen.

csearle wrote:I've yet to be convinced that batteries will achieve the energy density required to replace, like-for-like, the performance of petrol/diesel engines. I would like to be persuaded, but simply hoping wouldn't really do it for me. Also, moving electricity around converts some of it heat.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, can be tanked, so I believe the whole range angst thing becomes a non-issue.

If you're worried about the energy losses in moving energy around, then you need to take into account the energy losses involved in going via hydrogen to what ends up at the wheel. Hydrogen is hopelessly inefficient in comparison to batteries.

And the range angst thing is already a non-issue for most people - there was a study in the US which found that 85-90% of cars never go more than 200 miles in a day - so range angst is not a thing for those cars. Hydrogen will have a niche in some transport applications - particularly those with all-day use near a home base like eg mining trucks and maybe combine harvesters and the like - but it will be rather like LPG, the refuelling infrastructure will never be as dense as the mainstream option ie batteries.

Mike4 wrote:I too have always felt leccy cars are a blind alley. Not only for energy density reasons but speed of charging too.

But most of the time they're being slow charged overnight. I know someone who had a Leaf (ie only a notional 120 mile range or so) for two years, and doing ~35,000 miles in all that time only ever charged from a charger away from home once, just to see how it worked in case they needed it. Most cars are just pottering to work/school/the shops, and for those kind of people an EV is perfect, as they never need to go to a "petrol station".

The windfarm to wheel of systems using hydrogen as an intermediary is much worse than using batteries. Electrolysis has big losses, as does burning the hydrogen. No prospects of improvement either, unlike batteries

A 2017 analysis published in Green Car Reports concluded that the best hydrogen-fuel-cell vehicles consume "more than three times more electricity per mile than an electric vehicle ... generate more greenhouse gas emissions than other powertrain technologies ... [and have] very high fuel costs. ... Considering all the obstacles and requirements for new infrastructure (estimated to cost as much as $400 billion), fuel-cell vehicles seem likely to be a niche technology at best, with little impact on U.S. oil consumption

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ ... #Criticism

Mike4 wrote:

CliffEdge wrote:They dug up the gas pipes in our local village to renew the pipes and while they were doing it made them suitable for carrying hydrogen.

Fat chance of that ever happening. We have far better things to do with H than burn it in gas boilers to heat our homes.

20% H 80% methane could work though, according to a chemist mate of mine.

50% H2/50% CO worked fine for many years, with a bit of hydrocarbon thrown in for good measure.

Known as Town's Gas.

TJH

tjh290633 wrote:

Mike4 wrote:

CliffEdge wrote:They dug up the gas pipes in our local village to renew the pipes and while they were doing it made them suitable for carrying hydrogen.

Fat chance of that ever happening. We have far better things to do with H than burn it in gas boilers to heat our homes.

20% H 80% methane could work though, according to a chemist mate of mine.

50% H2/50% CO worked fine for many years, with a bit of hydrocarbon thrown in for good measure.

Known as Town's Gas.

TJH

Not with plastic pipes though.

I'm no expert but my chemist friend reckons unpredictable quantities of hydrogen will migrate straight through certain types of plastic pipe

Mike4 wrote:

tjh290633 wrote:

Mike4 wrote:

CliffEdge wrote:They dug up the gas pipes in our local village to renew the pipes and while they were doing it made them suitable for carrying hydrogen.

Fat chance of that ever happening. We have far better things to do with H than burn it in gas boilers to heat our homes.

20% H 80% methane could work though, according to a chemist mate of mine.

50% H2/50% CO worked fine for many years, with a bit of hydrocarbon thrown in for good measure.

Known as Town's Gas.

TJH

Not with plastic pipes though.

I'm no expert but my chemist friend reckons unpredictable quantities of hydrogen will migrate straight through certain types of plastic pipe

He could be correct. Helium certainly would.

Googling" plastics hydrogen permeability" gives quite a few papers. Indications seem to be that losses are relatively low, but plasticisers do not help.

TJH

mc2fool wrote:But in any case, the two aren't exclusive. I've heard it mooted that most runabout type cars will be battery electric while long-distance-type cars and the likes of HGVs will tend to being Hindenburgs on wheels.

Scania aim to have their first truck which can pull the maximum EU load of 40 tonnes for the EU limit of four and a half continuous hours and recharge in the driver's mandatory 45 minute break on the market in 2024 so unless you are going to pony express it with a driver relay the truck will already be capable of what it is legally allowed to do within a couple of years in one of the major transportation markets. The big truck manufacturers are already cooperating to roll out the necessary truck chargers.

At one point there were something ling 405,000 electric busses on the planet with 400,000 of them being in China. They seem to like electric vehicles big and small. So that's two of the big three...

Hydrogen will find uses, but I wouldn't bank on seeing many hydrogen based HGV's.

BobbyD wrote:At one point there were something ling 405,000 electric busses on the planet with 400,000 of them being in China.

At one point there were lots of electric buses in London too.


https://www.alamy.com/a-london-transport-trolleybus-at-the-trolleybus-museum-sandtoft-england-image272047163.html

mc2fool wrote:

BobbyD wrote:At one point there were something ling 405,000 electric busses on the planet with 400,000 of them being in China.

At one point there were lots of electric buses in London too.


https://www.alamy.com/a-london-transport-trolleybus-at-the-trolleybus-museum-sandtoft-england-image272047163.html

Yeah, but this was mid 2020, since when the rest of the world has started to fo the same way so i doubt the Chinese still hold 99% of the world' s electric bus fleet. The point being that with their battery scale and existing prediliction for large electric vehicles id expect them to favour leccy over hydrogen.

BobbyD wrote:

mc2fool wrote:

BobbyD wrote:At one point there were something ling 405,000 electric busses on the planet with 400,000 of them being in China.

At one point there were lots of electric buses in London too.


https://www.alamy.com/a-london-transport-trolleybus-at-the-trolleybus-museum-sandtoft-england-image272047163.html

Yeah, but this was mid 2020, since when the rest of the world has started to fo the same way so i doubt the Chinese still hold 99% of the world' s electric bus fleet. The point being that with their battery scale and existing prediliction for large electric vehicles id expect them to favour leccy over hydrogen.

Maybe so, but my point really was that an electric bus doesn't necessarily have to have batteries, or fuel cells for that matter.

In any case, buses generally fall under the "runabout" definition and so don't suffer from range angst; e.g. the average London bus does less than 100 miles a day. https://www.quora.com/How-many-miles-does-an-average-London-bus-drive-every-year

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A not-about-transport article of tangential interest in the latest IC has a rather curious statement:

"Hydrogen-powered cells outperform lithium-ion batteries despite losing more energy between a wind turbine, processing and eventual use. This, and its quicker refuelling speed, makes it more suitable for heavy industry use.

“One kilogram of hydrogen (39 kilowatt hours) contains 195 times more energy than a 1kg lithium-ion battery pack (0.2kWH),” said Bernstein analyst Neil Beveridge in a new report."

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/news/2022/08/31/hydrogen-makes-reappearance-following-crisis-lull/ for folks with (free) registration
https://www.google.com/search?q=Hydrogen+makes+reappearance+following+crisis+lull and follow the IC link for folks without

Hydrogen has problems with volumetric energy density, as rocket launchers are finding. NASA's Artemis has a huge tank which is nearly all cryogenic hydrogen. SpaceX's Starship with methane, still cryogenic, has a more even distribution between fuel and oxidiser. Getting 1 kg of hydrogen into the same space as 1kg of battery is really hard, and needs a breakthrough in adsorption techniques to get it into a safer solid matrix rather than cryogenic or high pressure tanks for transport use.

Kerosene has a marvellous gravimetric and volumetric energy density at room temperatures, shame its hard to make from electricity.

https://demaco-cryogenics.com/blog/ener ... -hydrogen/

mc2fool wrote:A not-about-transport article of tangential interest in the latest IC has a rather curious statement:

"Hydrogen-powered cells outperform lithium-ion batteries despite losing more energy between a wind turbine, processing and eventual use. This, and its quicker refuelling speed, makes it more suitable for heavy industry use.

Aargh! They are still at it. "curious" indeed:

[pedant mode]
There are no "Hydrogen-powered" fuel cells. There are "Hydrogen-fuelled" fuel cells!
As in, all ICE vehicles are powered by IC engines, not diesel/gas/petrol powered. But are fuelled by diesel/gas/petrol.

Similarly, all "fuel cell" vehicles are necessarily electric powered vehicles.
[/pedant mode]