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White Hydrogen

Green investment room for those with a green conscience or following environmental, social and governance (ESG) principles
bruncher
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White Hydrogen

#608889

Postby bruncher » August 14th, 2023, 11:24 am

Prospectors hit the gas in the hunt for ‘white hydrogen’
The zero-emission fuel may exist in abundant reserves below ground. Now large sums are being invested to look for it
For more than a decade, the village of Bourakébougou in western Mali has been powered by a clean energy phenomenon that may soon sweep the globe.

The story begins with a cigarette. In 1987, a failed attempt to drill for water released a stream of odourless gas that one unlucky smoker discovered to be highly flammable. The well was quickly plugged and forgotten. But almost 20 years later, drillers on the hunt for fossil fuels confirmed the accidental discovery: hundreds of feet below the arid earth of west Africa lies an abundance of naturally occurring, or “white”, hydrogen.

Today, it is used to generate green electricity for Bourakébougou’s homes and shops. But geologists believe that untapped reservoirs of white hydrogen in the US, Australia and parts of Europe have the potential to provide the world with clean energy on a far greater scale.


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... e-hydrogen

bruncher
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Re: White Hydrogen

#608909

Postby bruncher » August 14th, 2023, 12:26 pm


JohnB
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Re: White Hydrogen

#608913

Postby JohnB » August 14th, 2023, 12:30 pm

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/07/no ... lean-fuel/ is a sober analysis of hydrogen, both in terms of the different carbon contents to manufacture it, the problems of distribution (often 10x the cost of production), and how the white hydrogen reserves found (biggest 40% of current hydrogen consumption) aren't that big, that certain and in the right places to connect with the ammonia works etc.

Its not very positive.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#608917

Postby Tedx » August 14th, 2023, 12:37 pm

Telepgraph article (seems to be free to read)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -net-zero/

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Re: White Hydrogen

#608996

Postby spasmodicus » August 14th, 2023, 5:23 pm

The newspaper article seems to suggest that it is somehow a new idea to drill for hydrogen. It’s no surprise that hydrogen effuses from the Earth given that the Universe is alleged to consist of about 73% hydrogen. Soviet geologists long argued that many oil and gas fields were sourced from hydrogen which percolated up from the Earth’s mantle and interacted with organic rich deposits in sedimentary deposits to form oil. The AAPG (American Association of Petroleum Geologists) still considers this a heresy (i.e. the “not invented here” syndrome) and asserts that oil and gas are solely produced by the action of heat and pressure on sedimentary deposits. Some oil and gas fields contain significant amounts of hydrogen and natural gas can also be found in rocks of non-sedimentary origin, which indicates that maybe one should keep an open mind about this. Nevertheless, the gas industry grew to its present size and importance on methane, not hydrogen.

It ain't rocket science, they say, to indicate that something is technologically simple. Proponents of hydrogen technologies, as a solution for greening our energy use, point to its wondrous property viz that burning it just produces water vapour and, they say, it has a high energy density in terms of Joules/kg.

What they do not emphasise are the difficulties in producing and handling the stuff. Theoretically, you could pipe it down the existing network that supplies millions of gas boilers in the UK, tweak the boiler combustion a bit and Bob's yer uncle. However although the chemical energy stored per unit weight of hydrogen (in liquid or gaseous form) is higher than that for methane, the volumetric energy density of hydrogen is significantly lower. This means you have to run the pipe network at a higher pressure to transport the same amount of energy as for methane. This exacerbates the problem that molecules of hydrogen are much smaller than those of methane, or coal gas, so they leak much more readily.

Rocket scientists know all about this. Hydrogen seems like the best chemical fuel for rockets, from the point of view of the specific impulse of a liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen (hydrolox) rocket being higher than almost any other chemical combination that could safely (that word is relative in this context) be employed. The first (and only) human landing on the Moon in 1969 used a Saturn rocket booster (kerolox i.e. kerosene and liquid oxygen) with a hydrolox (liquid hydrogen and oxygen) second stage. Look what fun they had designing it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-II

The space Shuttle also used hydrolox for its three RS-25 main engines and because of the very large volume of the liquid hydrogen required, it had to have a huge external fuel tank. Right next to it, two solid fuel boosters were attached and when one of them started leaking high temperature gases which impinged on this tank, it caused the tragic loss of the Challenger shuttle. The tank had to be insulated to slow down the hydrogen boil-off, which would otherwise have caused massive amounts of ice to form on the outside of the tank. Later, a chunk of this insulation broke off on takeoff of the Columbia shuttle, which damaged one wing, causing it to burn up on re-entry.

The inherent problems of handling hydrogen were recognised by Elon Musk when designing his Starship/Super Heavy rocket, with ambitions to create a re-usable rocket which could potentially go to Mars and beyond. Having successfully achieved re-usability (an amazing achievement in itself) with Spacex's Falcon rockets powered by kerolox Merlin engines, he embarked on an engineering project to create the Raptor liquid methane/liquid oxygen (methalox) engine for the Starship programme. Liquid methane has a number of advantages over liquid hydrogen, even though methalox has a lower specific impulse than hydrolox (are you still with me?)
1) It's volumetric energy density is higher, meaning smaller fuel tankage. Hydrogen is hard to handle and it leaks much more readily than methane, due to its smaller molecules.
2) The boiling point of liquid methane is a lot higher that that of liquid hydrogen, reducing the insulation requirements for tankage. It is less prone to boil away on a long duration space flight.
3) Most importantly, there is a chance that methane could be synthesised in situ on Mars, or the Moon, from the carbon dioxide and water which are though to exist there. One can imagine a Martian economy based on a carbon dioxide, oxygen, methane and water cycle, e.g. CO2 and 2xH20 --> CH4 and O2 --> CO2 and 2xH20 which is, after all, roughly how things work on Earth.

Other rocket designers have started to wake up to the advantages of methalox, e.g. European Space agency (Prometheus) etc. etc.

Earth has even better facilities that Mars for an economy based on a Carbon/Hydrogen cycle. In fact our own biological life cycle involves both methane and hydrogen. see these articles about farts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378885/
https://heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice/fart-powered-homes

It seems that the relative hydrogen and methane contents of your farts depends very much on your diet. So maybe the idea of using a mixture of methane and hydrogen to power our gas boilers is not so silly.

There is already a well established LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) industry on Earth. Typically, LNG is 85 to 95-plus percent methane, along with a few percent ethane, even less propane and butane, and trace amounts of nitrogen. The system is well adapted to transporting 100% methane.

What we really need to learn how to do is to fuse that damn H2 stuff into Helium.
S

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609336

Postby Kantwebefriends » August 16th, 2023, 3:18 pm

"it is used to generate green electricity": it releases water vapour, a far more effective greenhouse gas than CO2.

"Soviet geologists long argued that ...": Tom Gold - Cambridge and Cornell - used to argue something like that too . It's referred to as the "abiogenic petroleum origin hypothesis".

Could it be right? Could it be economic? Worth a punt?

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609341

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 16th, 2023, 3:40 pm

Kantwebefriends wrote:"it is used to generate green electricity": it releases water vapour, a far more effective greenhouse gas than CO2.

Burning hydrocarbons releases both CO2 and water.

Water vapour is of course by far the more potent greenhouse gas. But not a problem, because it has a rapid cycle (called weather), and the planet has this big sink called the Oceans with ample capacity to take all mankind will ever produce without a blink (just ask Thor).

Which is also why it's disingenuous for commentators to talk of methane in the same way as CO2.

(I'm sure you knew that already, but I can see your post coming across in at least two potentially-misleading ways)

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609420

Postby Kantwebefriends » August 16th, 2023, 10:54 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Burning hydrocarbons releases both CO2 and water.


True but misleading. Per unit of energy generated - which is what matters - hydrocarbons generate far less water vapour than hydrogen does.

UncleEbenezer wrote:Water vapour ... has a rapid cycle (called weather), and the planet has this big sink called the Oceans with ample capacity to take all mankind will ever produce without a blink


Since the climate models which are the source of climate hysteria incorporate no intelligent account of the fate of water vapour in the atmosphere - e.g. they include negligible understanding of clouds - it's perfectly reasonable to point out the threat - oh, Mummy, Mummy! - of new releases of water vapour.

After all, it's only fair to demand a little intellectual consistency from the climate hysterics.

Anway, "white hydrogen": if it can be drilled for without government subsidy, go right ahead. If it needs government subsidy, don't. Easy peasy.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609421

Postby XFool » August 16th, 2023, 11:11 pm

Kantwebefriends wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Water vapour ... has a rapid cycle (called weather), and the planet has this big sink called the Oceans with ample capacity to take all mankind will ever produce without a blink

Since the climate models which are the source of climate hysteria incorporate no intelligent account of the fate of water vapour in the atmosphere - e.g. they include negligible understanding of clouds - it's perfectly reasonable to point out the threat - oh, Mummy, Mummy! - of new releases of water vapour.

Yes, doubtless it is complicated - after all clouds can cause both cooling (day) and heating (night). Plus, the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is going to depend highly (essentially?) on the temperature of the planet.

Kantwebefriends wrote:After all, it's only fair to demand a little intellectual consistency from the climate hysterics.

Err... Would that be because water "vapour" released by burning hydrogen/hydrocarbons is a special kind of water vapour, that can only exist as vapour in the atmosphere? As opposed to other sorts of water that, strangely, can exist as both vapour (in the atmosphere) as well as liquid water and solid water (not in the atmosphere)?

I think, in the interests of "intellectual honesty", we should be told.

Clouds May Be the Key to a Climate Modeling Mystery

Scientific American

Newer models show more future warming than previous ones, and it may be due to how they incorporate clouds

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609423

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 17th, 2023, 12:37 am

Kantwebefriends wrote:After all, it's only fair to demand a little intellectual consistency from the climate hysterics.


Oh dear. That's a more disingenuous Agenda than I had attributed to you.

Hypothetical: Suppose we find mankind's emissions of water vapour an existential threat. We can in principle stop, and in a couple of weeks, all traces of it are gone, because that's the rate of nature's cycle. Which is why noone worries about it - at least in a global context.

With methane it's slower - a matter of years. We have experience with something in that ballpark (probably rather longer) when we found CFCs damaging the Ozone layer - which is now gradually improving.

With CO2 on current scales (in persistent excess of nature's own cycle), it's effectively forever. Well, for a data point, the carboniferous era lasted 60 million years ending ended 300 million years ago. Which is why it's a real problem if we reverse 60 million years terraforming the planet to one that can support today's high-metabolic-rate (i.e. warm-blooded) life forms in a few generations.

Lots of disingenuous distractions there, but the fundamental problem is the scale and persistence of the CO2 imbalance. Breathing? Not a problem - it's on Nature's scale. Volcanos? Not a long-term problem, as they are transient events - even if a supervolcano could have potential to kill much of humanity in a decade or two's worth of famine. Mankind's CO2 emissions, on the other hand, existential.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609448

Postby tjh290633 » August 17th, 2023, 9:06 am

XFool wrote:Yes, doubtless it is complicated - after all clouds can cause both cooling (day) and heating (night). Plus, the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is going to depend highly (essentially?) on the temperature of the planet.

To be pedantic, cloud cannot give heating, merely reduce the loss of heat.

THH

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609454

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 17th, 2023, 9:39 am

tjh290633 wrote:
XFool wrote:Yes, doubtless it is complicated - after all clouds can cause both cooling (day) and heating (night). Plus, the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is going to depend highly (essentially?) on the temperature of the planet.

To be pedantic, cloud cannot give heating, merely reduce the loss of heat.

THH

Which is precisely how the "greenhouse effect" warms the planet. And, erm, why we wear warm clothes in winter, or insulate our homes.

To be pedantic, he wrote "cause", not "give". Do you think "cause" implies "generate"? What word would you use of a heat pump?

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609502

Postby tjh290633 » August 17th, 2023, 3:49 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:To be pedantic, cloud cannot give heating, merely reduce the loss of heat.

THH

Which is precisely how the "greenhouse effect" warms the planet. And, erm, why we wear warm clothes in winter, or insulate our homes.

To be pedantic, he wrote "cause", not "give". Do you think "cause" implies "generate"? What word would you use of a heat pump?

I'm sorry, but greenhouse gases have nothing to do with it. In any case, water vapour is by far the most potent absorber of infrared radiation. Clouds cannot radiate heat to a warmer surface at night. They can only reduce the loss of heat by reducing radiation to space.

A heat pump is merely a refrigerator working in reverse. It liberates latent heat from the refrigerant. If you want air conditioning the refrigerant gets the latent heat required to evaporate it from the air. The energy required comes from the electric motor. How else could you describe it?

TJH

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609506

Postby XFool » August 17th, 2023, 3:52 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
XFool wrote:Yes, doubtless it is complicated - after all clouds can cause both cooling (day) and heating (night). Plus, the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is going to depend highly (essentially?) on the temperature of the planet.

To be pedantic, cloud cannot give heating, merely reduce the loss of heat.

So they can contribute to warming by reducing heat loss. What's the issue?

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609514

Postby tjh290633 » August 17th, 2023, 4:06 pm

XFool wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:To be pedantic, cloud cannot give heating, merely reduce the loss of heat.

So they can contribute to warming by reducing heat loss. What's the issue?

Not to warming, only to reducing heat loss. You get less cooling. To get warming you need a heat source. That is only available during daylight hours.

TJH

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609516

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 17th, 2023, 4:10 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
XFool wrote:So they can contribute to warming by reducing heat loss. What's the issue?

Not to warming, only to reducing heat loss. You get less cooling. To get warming you need a heat source. That is only available during daylight hours.

TJH

So, how many angels dance on your pinhead?

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609519

Postby tjh290633 » August 17th, 2023, 4:16 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Not to warming, only to reducing heat loss. You get less cooling. To get warming you need a heat source. That is only available during daylight hours.

TJH

So, how many angels dance on your pinhead?

As a frivolous comment to a frivolous remark, it depends on whether the sun is shining or not.

TJH

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609520

Postby JohnB » August 17th, 2023, 4:18 pm

You are all talking rubbish about the radiative properties of water vapour. Please read a introductory article, there are plenty on the internet.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609521

Postby XFool » August 17th, 2023, 4:18 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
XFool wrote:So they can contribute to warming by reducing heat loss. What's the issue?

Not to warming, only to reducing heat loss. You get less cooling. To get warming you need a heat source. That is only available during daylight hours

No it isn't. The ground that has been heated during the day is a source of heat - it is radiating; as is any body in the universe that is above absolute zero (which means everything in the universe). The heated ground on earth is at a higher temperature than the universe generally so it radiates nett heat away into the night sky (the universe) - unless the sky is blocked by clouds.

There is no mystery here...

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Re: White Hydrogen

#609590

Postby ayshfm1 » August 17th, 2023, 11:27 pm

On the subject of clouds.....

The ocean surface temperature has been rising and we know why.

Ships (used) to burn the worst possible oil, the stuff left after everything useful was extracted. This stuff is horrible and is now largely banned. However what it did do was form clouds behind the ships you can see them from satellite pictures and now we aren't using so much there are less clouds. Clouds reflect sunlight, so now more sunlight gets to the ocean surface and it warms up.

So now we have empirical observations that forming clouds reduces warming that should be no objections to creating a lot more, for example, to restore the ocean clouds previously created, the ships could simply create a seawater mist in their wake. That will make clouds without pumping any crap into the atmosphere.


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