UK subsidies for offshore windfarms likely to increase amid rising costs

[MarkARK]

Just listened to an interesting podcast, Merryn Somerset Webb talking to Barry Norris of Argonaut Absolute Return Fund.

He is currently shorting the European wind industry.

Worth looking it up IMO.

[Itsallaguess]

Just listened to an interesting podcast, Merryn Somerset Webb talking to Barry Norris of Argonaut Absolute Return Fund.

He is currently shorting the European wind industry.

Worth looking it up IMO.

That Merryn Talks Money podcast episode is called 'Hedge Fund Boss’s ‘Moral Case’ for Fossil Fuel Investing' (17th November 2023), and the 46 minute episode is available on the following links -

https://open.spotify.com/episode/79Lg9VMp7A3NC6NNpZQxpI

https://uk.radio.net/podcast/merryn-talks-money

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[jaizan]

Why do you claim that there is too much? It's not that long ago that there were serious concerns that we would have enough energy to meet demand.

The problem is obviously that wind power is intermittent. We can certainly have too much unreliable energy output.

If we fill the North Sea with wind turbines and everyone has heat pumps, how would we heat houses when the wind isn't blowing for a few days ?

No one has the answer.
Currently we use gas as a backup, but that's not zero carbon and paying for 2 power stations instead of 1 is expensive.

As for zero carbon, there simply isn't enough lithium to provide battery storage for a few days.

So we need better solutions than wind.
I would start with an inquiry into why nuclear power is so expensive and a project to benchmark the nuclear prices in other parts of the world.

As for criticizing the government, that's fair. However, the opposition seem at least as clueless when it comes to energy policy. Stuffing the House of Commons full of graduates in PPE does not lead to good decision making.

[Urbandreamer]

Why do you claim that there is too much? It's not that long ago that there were serious concerns that we would have enough energy to meet demand.

The problem is obviously that wind power is intermittent. We can certainly have too much unreliable energy output.

And the rest of your post explains that you are complaining about a shortage or the costs of alternatives to wind. NOT explaining how having a surplus of anything is necessarily a problem.

As for why nuclear is expensive, where to start?
Unlike gas nobody wants you just pumping the effluent into the environment. Instead you have to find and fund a means of dealing with it. I do hope that you realize that people are paid to guard the waste.
From 2019
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ear-legacy

Costs are currently around £3 billion annually.

Of course I suspect that you actually meant the capital costs. That's partially due to safety regulations and inspections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_fo ... Regulation

As of 2021 it had about 650 staff and a budget of £95.05 million which was largely cost-recovered from users with a 2% grant from the DWP.

The large nuclear power stations that we currently like are bespoke creations which contain parts supplied by monopoly contractors. Why? Well you have to go to the only company that can provide the parts.
https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/nuclea ... st-reactor

The reactor has been built in France by Framatome; the same nuclear engineering company which built Britain’s last nuclear reactor, at Sizewell B in 1991.

Then of course you have the cost of the fuel, though I believe that's a minor cost at the moment.

Possibly we should just pump the untreated waste out to sea as we use to do.
https://www.epa.ie/our-services/monitor ... ellafield/

Discharges into the Irish Sea peaked in the mid-1970s and have dropped significantly in recent years. This is as a result of improved waste treatment facilities at Sellafield, which convert much of this radioactive waste into a solid for long-term storage.

We don't in fact need an inquiry, anymore than we would need one into why HS2 was costing so much. The facts are well known. If we want nuclear to be cheaper, we need to relax our safety standards, mass produce parts so that they can be made cheaply and find a cheap way to deal with the waste.

[MickR]

If we fill the North Sea with wind turbines and everyone has heat pumps, how would we heat houses when the wind isn't blowing for a few days ?

No one has the answer.

This is untrue.

There are loads of different technologies and solutions being trialled to overcome the issue of storing the excess energy from the wind farms, to use when the wind isn't blowing. What we don't have at the moment is a solution that is both scalable and cost effective

my favourite at the moment is to use the excess energy from the wind and solar farms to create Hydrogen. There is a proposal going through planning at the moment for Dogger Bank D to be used to power a Hydrogen Electrolysis plant on the East Coast. The Hydrogen will be stored underground, same as the way we store natural gas through the summer, then can be used for power generation as and when required.

https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/world ... -1-1399479

There are other development in battery technology that move away from Lithium. There are so many companies and universities working in this area because of the massive financial benefits it will acrue. These WILL come to fruition over the next 10 or 15 years.

Everybody knows that wind alone isn't the answer, but there's a massive opportunity to come up with solutions that will work alongside wind and solar generation. The UK needs to be at the forefront of developing these solutions, and provide a market for companies to commit budgets to explore and build these solutions.

I really dislike this head in the sand type mentality. reminds me of the complaining about the advent of the railways in the early C19th, when a horse is just as good, doesn't need coal or rails, only takes 10 minutes to get ready, and provides fertiliser for the vegetable patch.

Remember, necessity is the mother of invention

[Tedx]

If we fill the North Sea with wind turbines and everyone has heat pumps, how would we heat houses when the wind isn't blowing for a few days ?

No one has the answer.

This is untrue.

There are loads of different technologies and solutions being trialled to overcome the issue of storing the excess energy from the wind farms, to use when the wind isn't blowing. What we don't have at the moment is a solution that is both scalable and cost effective

my favourite at the moment is to use the excess energy from the wind and solar farms to create Hydrogen. There is a proposal going through planning at the moment for Dogger Bank D to be used to power a Hydrogen Electrolysis plant on the East Coast. The Hydrogen will be stored underground, same as the way we store natural gas through the summer, then can be used for power generation as and when required.

https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/world ... -1-1399479

There are other development in battery technology that move away from Lithium. There are so many companies and universities working in this area because of the massive financial benefits it will acrue. These WILL come to fruition over the next 10 or 15 years.

Everybody knows that wind alone isn't the answer, but there's a massive opportunity to come up with solutions that will work alongside wind and solar generation. The UK needs to be at the forefront of developing these solutions, and provide a market for companies to commit budgets to explore and build these solutions.

I really dislike this head in the sand type mentality. reminds me of the complaining about the advent of the railways in the early C19th, when a horse is just as good, doesn't need coal or rails, only takes 10 minutes to get ready, and provides fertiliser for the vegetable patch.

Remember, necessity is the mother of invention

Spot on. And remember, none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.

None of this is new.

[Howard]

Article about National Grid's plans for infrastructure upgrades. I found it interesting, particularly the comparison of costs of fault repair for pylons vs undersea cables.

"Why electricity pylons in Essex are the front line in the battle to hit net zero."

https://news.sky.com/story/why-electric ... o-13009761

regards

Howard

[GoSeigen]

Spot on. And remember, none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.

None of this is new.

Hilarious. How much of UK daily energy demand is stored? Serious question, answer as a percentage please.


Can, can, can, can... So what? We don't do any of it and won't do any of it in a hurry and it's all wasteful.


GS

[Urbandreamer]

Spot on. And remember, none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.

None of this is new.

Hilarious. How much of UK daily energy demand is stored? Serious question, answer as a percentage please.


Can, can, can, can... So what? We don't do any of it and won't do any of it in a hurry and it's all wasteful.


GS

Back when I held SSE, they had plans for pumped storage. Plans only, because it didn't make "economic" sense at the time. over a decade later they may have started work on the project.

In February 2012, Coire Glas Pumped Storage Scheme Environmental Statement (ES) was
submitted in support of an application for consent under the Electricity Act 1989 to
construct and operate a 600 MW hydroelectric pumped storage scheme at Coire Glas.
Section 36 consent was granted on 13th December 2013, with an extension to this granted
by Scottish Ministers on 14th March 2017, which is due to expire on 12th December 2021
(referred to hereafter as The Consented Development)

https://www.sserenewables.com/media/sje ... 463255.pdf

Well it may make economic sense now.
https://www.coireglas.com/project

[88V8]

....none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.
None of this is new.

So how come we are having to shed unwanted 'green' power by paying windfarm owners to burn it?

At the moment, Cameron had it right when he referred to renewables as The Green Crap.

V8

[Urbandreamer]

....none of this needs any new technology. We can create. Hydrogen through electrolysis, we can chill air and store energy. We can haul heavy weights up hills. We can pump water uphill. We can store electricity in electric car and home batteries. We can store heat in sand for days on end. We can send excess electricity to the continent via interconnectors.
None of this is new.

So how come we are having to shed unwanted 'green' power by paying windfarm owners to burn it?

At the moment, Cameron had it right when he referred to renewables as The Green Crap.

V8

Because that's the regulatory system that we have in this country. In Texas they sell such electricity.

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsig ... renewables

This off-peak demand crypto miners created allows renewable projects to sell energy that would otherwise be curtailed and increase overall utilization of renewable energy across the entire grid, miners and analysis said. And that relationship improves the margins for renewable developers, incentivizing more renewables to come to Texas.

However if you rewind to the start of the thread you will discover that is NOT possible in this country, BECAUSE the government want a different system in place here.

This thread is about renewable energy, rather than crypto mining, but a brief search will show that all over the world it is being used as a customer of last resort.

Ideally we wish to displace fuels that are burned as a means to combat climate change. That means that ideally we want more wind capacity than we use, for when the wind is not blowing at it's maximum. As you note this can mean that more electricity is produced on those very windy days. It also happens that excess production can be an issue with nuclear energy.

Nuclear’s large volume and always-on nature has always been as much of a management challenge as a benefit. It is predictable, but has always run the risk of tipping the system into oversupply at times (such as overnight) when demand is low.

https://www.neimagazine.com/features/fe ... -11210843/

Look folks, when it's not politics it's engineering.