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Crypto friendly current accounts?

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
Aegis
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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473401

Postby Aegis » January 15th, 2022, 10:46 pm

seekingbalance wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
seekingbalance wrote:Thanks Urbandreamer - yes, you did read my OP correctly. My banks won't let me buy crypto.

Therefore - for others who may not have got it - I can't send any money to Binance or Coinbase, nor can I send money to another Crypto company to set up a crypto debit card! Nor can I send money from my other crypto accounts without normal fiat onramps (that's why you need Binance, Coinbase, Crypto.com, or indeed gemini or FTX) if I don't want to sell any of my crypto! I have plenty of value in these accounts (700% profit in fact) but i want to add extra POUNDS.

I'll check out the link you posted, Urbandreamer.


We've got it, I think you haven't got it. Cryptocurrencies are predicated on a brave new world where users of crypto can simply bypass banks and governments. If it turns out that is so not the case that you cannot do the simplest transactions then why are you investing in the toilet paper in the first place? Aren't loud alarm bells ringing and red flags waving?

GS


Can you just remind me of the last time you bought something with one of your shares? like going into a shop and buying some stuff with some BHP shares, some Astra Zeneca shares?

Yeah, thought not.


The issue here, I suspect, is that the asset class is called cryptocurrency, which implies an ability to spend the asset in exchange for goods and services. I've said previously that it doesn't meet the requirements for being a currency, so it is much more like a commodity in that respect, albeit an entirely virtual one.

I hold these "shares" ie Crypto assets in my crypto accounts as long term investments. I don't want to pull any cash out (though I can in fact do that) and I don't want to sell any of my positions. I don't want to buy anything with them, I don't want do any transaction other than to buy some more, for which I need to send money to be converted either directly or via a stable coin when there is no Pound/x crypto direct pair. If I had a bunch of "spare" crypto in these accounts that I wanted to use to buy anything else with, or indeed convert into Pounds to either cash out or to buy with, I can do that. I can also send any of these cryptos to another exchange, including those brave new world types of exchanges you so deride. But that is not what I am looking to do.

I know you have an opinion on everything and I usually prefer to not even answer your posts, but please, do not criticise the inability to do a thing when that thing was not bought for the purpose for which you are criticising it for not being able to do.


I agree, incidentally. There's no point in bashing cryptocurrency because you can't spend in it, there are plenty of other things to critique other than this.

GoSeigen
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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473413

Postby GoSeigen » January 16th, 2022, 6:05 am

So it'd be fair to say that after 12 years it's been found that cryptowhatevers are no more than a speculative vehicle -- and with no contract or underlying claim?

GS

Urbandreamer
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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473425

Postby Urbandreamer » January 16th, 2022, 8:34 am

Aegis wrote:
The issue here, I suspect, is that the asset class is called cryptocurrency, which implies an ability to spend the asset in exchange for goods and services. I've said previously that it doesn't meet the requirements for being a currency, so it is much more like a commodity in that respect, albeit an entirely virtual one.


It does depend upon where you are and what cypto. I would have difficulty spending Bolivars (not a crypto currency), but I live in the UK. As has been reported by the likes of the BBC, Bitcoin is now legal tender and can be used for all* financial transactions in El Salvador.

Bitcoin was created with the intent to be a currency. There is debate about how well it performs the function of a currency, but it is both used as one and the original intent was that it act as one. Other crypto is used to record ownership of art, land, contracts or even act as computer programs.

There is a lot of money speculated on various crypto "currencies", but is the speculation what defines them? Possibly in some peoples minds, but does that make it everyone's opinion or a fact? Does the fact that FX is a huge business make none crypto currencies just speculation? If a crypto is legal tender, does that make it a currency? If it is in fact used as you claim, spent in exchange for goods and services.

*This is HUGE, and not just for crypto currencies. Financial institutions are scrambling to work out how they can offer mortgages in Bitcoin.

NotSure
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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473470

Postby NotSure » January 16th, 2022, 11:49 am

Urbandreamer wrote:..... Financial institutions are scrambling to work out how they can offer mortgages in Bitcoin.


I'm intrigued as to how that would work. On indisputable fact is that crypto is extremely volatile. If it crashed, you could pay off your mortgage with a few dollars (converted to crypto). If it soars, you'd default. How is that going to work out for the lenders? If houses were valued in crypto, with a particular deposit, your LTV would be all over the place on almost a daily basis, let alone over the term of a mortgage.

Aegis
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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473475

Postby Aegis » January 16th, 2022, 12:04 pm

NotSure wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:..... Financial institutions are scrambling to work out how they can offer mortgages in Bitcoin.


I'm intrigued as to how that would work. On indisputable fact is that crypto is extremely volatile. If it crashed, you could pay off your mortgage with a few dollars (converted to crypto). If it soars, you'd default. How is that going to work out for the lenders? If houses were valued in crypto, with a particular deposit, your LTV would be all over the place on almost a daily basis, let alone over the term of a mortgage.


Without something stabilising the price, it would be insane to get involved in mortgage lending denominated in BTC. You've nailed why in your post, but even if you assume that BTC is similar to commodities like gold, you can quickly see that borrowing in, say, gold just isn't done except in the form of futures contracts, which is arguably just deferring the transaction date of a commodity purchase.

Right now it's hard enough to get a loan in Euros if you earn in GBP, and that's a relatively stable pair of currencies. It would also be very weird to see someone take a loan in Euros in those circumstances because it introduces currency risk on top of all the other risks associated with borrowing.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473497

Postby Urbandreamer » January 16th, 2022, 12:43 pm

I don't know how a bitcoin mortgage could work. Indeed, ignoring crypto, it has been argued that borrowing during times of inflation is better for the borrower than the lender. I wouldn't want to borrow bitcoin, as I believe that over the long term the value of my £'s will fall against it.

My comment was more about legal tender. Banks in El Salvador are required to accept bitcoin. Hence they need to accept it for mortgage payment if they want to offer mortgages. Obviously they need to figure out how they can manage the risks.

If anyone is interested there was a summit "adopting bitcoin" in El Salvador. You can watch some of the presentations over on bitcointv.com.
This one about handling transactions for the likes of Starbucks, McDonalds or even the corner shop, is quite interesting.

https://bitcointv.com/w/hjWxABGW4vDDmJZgjsRVw8

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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473537

Postby Aegis » January 16th, 2022, 3:23 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:I don't know how a bitcoin mortgage could work. Indeed, ignoring crypto, it has been argued that borrowing during times of inflation is better for the borrower than the lender. I wouldn't want to borrow bitcoin, as I believe that over the long term the value of my £'s will fall against it.

My comment was more about legal tender. Banks in El Salvador are required to accept bitcoin. Hence they need to accept it for mortgage payment if they want to offer mortgages. Obviously they need to figure out how they can manage the risks.

If anyone is interested there was a summit "adopting bitcoin" in El Salvador. You can watch some of the presentations over on bitcointv.com.
This one about handling transactions for the likes of Starbucks, McDonalds or even the corner shop, is quite interesting.

https://bitcointv.com/w/hjWxABGW4vDDmJZgjsRVw8


If I was a bank in El Salvador, I'd set up a lending facility in a certain currency, say USD, and would allow BTC transactions only so far as to accept payments in BTC and to immediately sell them for the currency of the loan. That strips out the risk of changing value, but still lets people make payments in BTC.

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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473543

Postby 1nvest » January 16th, 2022, 3:53 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:There is NO fractional reserve banking with bitcoin. NO monitory policy to inflate (note that is Bitcoin specific, but you did say Bitcoin). Others have argued that Bitcoin is like a commodity.
.
.
Bitcoin is held in nodes and accounts transfer notional bitcoin at little cost between their accounts. At some point the blockchain is updated with the changes.

Nodes are just trusted systems with copies of the (encrypted) public ledger (blockchain). In effect bitcoins are more like bearer bonds (less common nowadays, where no names were recorded, if you held the bond and the attached coupons that could be clipped and submitted to the issuer then they'd pay you that interest payment), but that instead of having a piece of paper a encrypted public ledger is used instead and where the bearer is the one who knows or can figure out the private key (a 32 character password).

Bearer bonds have the quality that any thief/loss has to occur locally, with Bitcoins the theft can occur from anywhere in the world. Somewhat like leaving bearer bonds in a combination code locker in a major railway station. Don't be surprised if one day you find the locker emptied/combination code not working, or otherwise having had the locker prised open. Penetrating core repository systems to install sub-system trojans specifically to record/report private keys and/or other clever methods to remotely steal bitcoins are no doubt a very high focus given the potential high rewards/low risk that offers.

The limit of bitcoin is based on 64 bit computing. The blockchain records all transactions forever, the security of such is subject to evolution - imagine the same based on former 8 bit computer days where security systems opined it would take centuries to crack but that can nowadays be cracked in seconds.

Yet another attack vector is that you can induce 'signals' that have other miners 'move on'. Fundamentally mining involves only those with the greatest amount of computing power being rewarded so with time fewer and fewer more powerful systems expending the efforts. Multiple copies of the public ledger as held across multiple nodes all comparing equally is considered as validation of the integrity. When however you can induce other nodes to be 'offline' and have a multiple number of your own nodes 'online' then your versions of the ledger will be inclined to be accepted as being the valid version. State sponsored attacks could in effect potentially wipe out or steal all bitcoins, from a distance. At least with physical gold stored in Fort Knox any attack involves physical presence at that location.

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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#473562

Postby Urbandreamer » January 16th, 2022, 5:10 pm

1nvest wrote:The limit of bitcoin is based on 64 bit computing. The blockchain records all transactions forever, the security of such is subject to evolution - imagine the same based on former 8 bit computer days where security systems opined it would take centuries to crack but that can nowadays be cracked in seconds.


The protocol recently changed to use the Schnorr signature. I suggest that you check his math and see if you can improve upon it.

The bitcoin protocol is updated, though the last time was in 2017. Hardware also changes. ASIC's are now used rather than 128 bit GPU's..

I would suggest that "evolution" may allow us to prevent Y2K problems, as has happened in the past.

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Re: Crypto friendly current accounts?

#480891

Postby 1nvest » February 16th, 2022, 9:06 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
1nvest wrote:The limit of bitcoin is based on 64 bit computing. The blockchain records all transactions forever, the security of such is subject to evolution - imagine the same based on former 8 bit computer days where security systems opined it would take centuries to crack but that can nowadays be cracked in seconds.

The protocol recently changed to use the Schnorr signature. I suggest that you check his math and see if you can improve upon it.

The bitcoin protocol is updated, though the last time was in 2017. Hardware also changes. ASIC's are now used rather than 128 bit GPU's..

I would suggest that "evolution" may allow us to prevent Y2K problems, as has happened in the past.

Thank. But no thanks. Now that HMRC/police are actually arresting/prosecuting for bitcoin/crypto based tax avoidance, further incentivised by they get to split the proceeds of seizures 50/50 (home office and HMRC), I can't see any benefit to taking on the risk (given the high association with dark-web/illicit activities). More so given that burden of proof is on a balance of probabilities basis rather than the stricter standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

In a recent such case Nick Sharp, HMRC's deputy director of economic crime, said the seizure "serves as a warning to anyone who thinks they can use crypto assets to hide money from HMRC". A number of arrests have been made of those using "sophisticated methods to try to hide their identities including false and stolen identities", HMRC said. "Confiscation also comes with a very tempting reward due to the Proceeds of Crime Act where the investigating police force can request to keep half of the forfeited goods and the other half will go to the Home Office".

Could be awkward even for items bought/sold as the police can still recover those as part of the proceeds, so someone for instance who bought a car and paid in Btc might at any time see that car being confiscated if/when the person who sold them the car is prosecuted for tax evasion or other illicit activities.

To secure viability requires trust, acceptance and ultimately regulation, whilst HMRC/state along with many other states are looking to deter such alternatives to legal tender currencies. As such I see the forward value of Bitcoins as zero ... or worse (cost/loss of other assets arising from seizures).


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