Bitcoin start-up advice needed

[Golam]

Do not

[Urbandreamer]

Do not

Care to elaborate as to why not?

I have recently opened an account with FTX where commissions on trade can be of the order of 0.02% or less and you can withdraw your cryptocurrency.

I have also purchased a hardware wallet and withdrawn the paltry sum that I had with FTX to the hardware wallet. Finally I have sold the Bitcoin that I held with Paypal as I was never too happy with the custodial aspect of someone else holding my Bitcoin.

Note that while I didn't have to pay FTX to withdraw my bitcoin (there are limits to withdrawing small amounts or often), I did have to pay the "mining fee" of about 80c per transaction.

Given that I started buying in December when bitcoin was twice as expensive it's no surprise that I have lost money. Then again my SMT shares are also down 50% in the same period. Don't invest in ANYTHING unless you are willing to take the rough with the smooth.

PS, I am not the OP, lest there be any confusion.

[Itsallaguess]

I also used to own other crypto-currencies

Any of these?



Source - https://coinranking.com/?sortby=asc&sorton=change

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[JohnB]

Lets hope bitcoin falls to £8k. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... xpert-says

[Urbandreamer]

Lets hope bitcoin falls to £8k. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... xpert-says

Yes let's hope that bitcoin falls to £8k so that I can buy more!

For what its worth people might like to visit the island of Texas (it's an island in energy terms, as isolated as Pitcairn).

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/tesla-b ... texas.html

They NEED bitcoin mining to regulate the grid. They had 70% (mentioned on WBD) renewable energy recently, and recently (in the last 12 months) the bitcoin miners turned off to allow "more important things" to function.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-if-asked

How do you pay for renewables if there is no market for their power?

Of course it's better to use the likes of coal or gas to ramp up and down to meet demand, rather that adjusting demand isn't it? That works so well with renewables doesn't it?

[Hornblower]

I also used to own other crypto-currencies

Any of these?
...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Ha, no...I've been Bitcoin only for the past few years. A 'cycle' usually takes about 4 years...I've been through a full cycle already. Typically over a cycle people will try & 'diversify' into alt-coins (or sh*tcoins, to give them their proper name) as a way to build a portfolio of crypto. Then the alts crash hard and cause you pain & force you to learn that Bitcoin is really the only game in town, the rest are scams/have no purpose.

H

[GoSeigen]

Ha, no...I've been Bitcoin only for the past few years. A 'cycle' usually takes about 4 years...I've been through a full cycle already. Typically over a cycle people will try & 'diversify' into alt-coins (or sh*tcoins, to give them their proper name) as a way to build a portfolio of crypto. Then the alts crash hard and cause you pain & force you to learn that Bitcoin is really the only game in town, the rest are scams/have no purpose.

Okay, I'll bite. What makes Bitcoin superior or significantly different to any of the others? What purpose does it serve?


GS

[ursaminortaur]

Ha, no...I've been Bitcoin only for the past few years. A 'cycle' usually takes about 4 years...I've been through a full cycle already. Typically over a cycle people will try & 'diversify' into alt-coins (or sh*tcoins, to give them their proper name) as a way to build a portfolio of crypto. Then the alts crash hard and cause you pain & force you to learn that Bitcoin is really the only game in town, the rest are scams/have no purpose.

Okay, I'll bite. What makes Bitcoin superior or significantly different to any of the others? What purpose does it serve?


GS

Its just like religion. Faith and the belief that my god is the true god - but all those other religions are just superstition.

[Urbandreamer]

Okay, I'll bite. What makes Bitcoin superior or significantly different to any of the others? What purpose does it serve?


GS

I'm sure that Hornblower can speak for themself, but they also provided some suggested podcasts on bitcoin (on anther thread).
Bitcoin Audible read a piece written by Lin Alden about the Luna/Terra crash that might be of interest.

She also argues that Bitcoin is far superior to any of the alternatives in terms of decentralization and reliability. The network has had no outage since 2014, something that even FedWire* can't claim.

I like this quote

Satoshi Nakamoto purposely sacrificed most metrics in his bitcoin design in order to achieve an automated, decentralized, and auditable global transfer agent and registrar, and nothing else.

She point's out the differences between many "alt coins" and Bitcoin.

*Fedwire https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/fedwire
*Lyn Alden article https://www.lynalden.com/digital-alchem ... 938054a6c8

[Itsallaguess]

A 'cycle' usually takes about 4 years...I've been through a full cycle already.

Typically over a cycle people will try & 'diversify' into alt-coins (or sh*tcoins, to give them their proper name) as a way to build a portfolio of crypto.

Then the alts crash hard and cause you pain & force you to learn that Bitcoin is really the only game in town, the rest are scams/have no purpose.

Could you please explain what a 'cycle' is in the above, and why it's a four year one?

Are you really saying that it's just a four-year period where suckers fully appreciate that they've been suckers, and then the whole '4-year cycle' starts again?

If that's the case, then it's nothing but a self-perpetuating pyramid scheme, isn't it?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Itsallaguess]

Bill Gates did a Reddit 'Ask me anything' session today, and I thought this was an interesting question and answer related to this topic -

u/btccbt - Hey Bill, what do you think about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies?

u/thisisbillgates - I don't own any. I like investing in things that have valuable output. The value of companies is based on how they make great products. The value of crypto is just what some other person decides someone else will pay for it so not adding to society like other investments.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Urbandreamer]

Bitcoin has "halving" events approximately every 4 years. The next is due early 2024.

Halving is a reduction in the rewards for mining. Eventually other forms of reward will have to take over.
I think that I mentioned that I paid a fee to move bitcoin recently. Those who use Ether explicitly expect to pay a fee which is known as the gas fee.

Hope that this information is of help.

Re Bill's answer. I also don't regard buying bitcoin as an "investment", it's money to me. I would disagree with him regarding bitcoin not adding to society. Money that is not subject to a states monetary policy, or indeed some other states monetary policy is something that adds to society in my opinion.

What's your opinion on the value of "money" to society? Ignore for a moment that you don't consider crypto as money and try and answer the question about some strong fiat like the $, £ or Euro. If you can't argue that they have no value then it comes back to can crypto be money.

Claiming that all crypto has no value is a statement, not a fact. Claiming that it can't add to society ignores the many examples where it has acted as money. Claiming that it's only worth what someone will give you for it only brings us back to other forms of money. They are only worth something because someone will give you something for them. It's a circular argument.

[ursaminortaur]

Bitcoin has "halving" events approximately every 4 years. The next is due early 2024.

Halving is a reduction in the rewards for mining. Eventually other forms of reward will have to take over.
I think that I mentioned that I paid a fee to move bitcoin recently. Those who use Ether explicitly expect to pay a fee which is known as the gas fee.

Hope that this information is of help.

Re Bill's answer. I also don't regard buying bitcoin as an "investment", it's money to me. I would disagree with him regarding bitcoin not adding to society. Money that is not subject to a states monetary policy, or indeed some other states monetary policy is something that adds to society in my opinion.

What's your opinion on the value of "money" to society? Ignore for a moment that you don't consider crypto as money and try and answer the question about some strong fiat like the $, £ or Euro. If you can't argue that they have no value then it comes back to can crypto be money.

Claiming that all crypto has no value is a statement, not a fact. Claiming that it can't add to society ignores the many examples where it has acted as money. Claiming that it's only worth what someone will give you for it only brings us back to other forms of money. They are only worth something because someone will give you something for them. It's a circular argument.

Money has value because citizens are required to use it to pay taxes to their government. On that basis bitcoin only has value in El Salvador which has made bitcoin legal tender which could be used to pay taxes. Unfortunately money also requires a degree of stability whereas bitcoin is fairly volatile which means that El Salvador's experiment doesn't seem to be going too well

https://restofworld.org/2022/el-salvador-bitcoin/

Six months in, El Salvador’s bitcoin gamble is crumbling

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/analysis-crypto-crash-leaves-el-salvador-no-easy-exit-worsening-crisis-2692641

El Salvador's big bet on bitcoin, which the Central American nation has been buying since September, has soured in recent weeks as a cryptocurrency rout shaved over a third of the value of the government's holdings, Reuters calculations show.

Under populist President Nayib Bukele, a vocal cheerleader for the currency, El Salvador went all-in on bitcoin, not just becoming the world's first country to adopt it as a legal tender but also sketching out plans for a volcano-powered crypto mining hub and plans to issue the first sovereign bond linked to the coin.

With global borrowing costs on the rise and a big debt repayment on the horizon, El Salvador has other fiscal headaches than the impact of the currency's swoon. But the crypto slump has also closed some potential off-ramps from the crisis, including the now-postponed bitcoin bond.

"The government's financial problems are not because of bitcoin, but they have gotten worse because of bitcoin," said Ricardo Castaneda, senior economist and country coordinator for El Salvador and Honduras at think tank Central American Institute for Fiscal Studies (ICEFI). For the government, he said, "bitcoin ceased to be a solution and has become part of the problem."

Bitcoin has fallen 45 per cent since El Salvador officially adopted it in early September, and 26 per cent from its May high as crypto assets have been swept up in a risk-off investing environment.

[Urbandreamer]

Money has value because citizens are required to use it to pay taxes to their government.

If that really is the true definition of the value of money, then $'s an Euros have no value to us. Because our government does not require us to use them or pay taxes in them. The fact that we can buy goods, use them on holiday or give them for charitable works has no value. Indeed $'s etc can have no value in countries with poor currencies and especially in countries that have currency controls, by that argument.

I wonder if you know of the RNLI. Yes our countries lifeboat charity accepts bitcoin, despite our government not requiring it.
https://rnli.org/support-us/give-money/ ... -donations
They are not the only charity that accepts it as a valuable donation.
https://www.makeuseof.com/charities-acc ... -donation/

One possible difference that you might like to consider is that YOU and others don't have to use or accept crypto. You don't value bitcoin. I do value bitcoin and am willing to pay for it.

Sorry but you can't dictate the value that I or others put on something.

I'm not going to bother repeating an explanation of money. I am pointing out that Bitcoin in particular has been used as money and that the ability to do so can be regarded as a value to society. The fact that a US journalist can provide a refugee in Poland funds in seconds using bitcoin and the lightning network has such a "value". Other methods are less direct and take longer. Bank to bank transfers require that the refugee has a bank account accepted in Poland and a Western Union transfer would take over a week.

Personally I wouldn't read too much into Mr Gates's answer to his question. He may not have considered crypto in any depth, having dismissed it as he did the internet in 1997. He may also have had a specific use of the word investment in mind. You don't "invest" in money in my opinion.

[Itsallaguess]

I'm not going to bother repeating an explanation of money.

I am pointing out that Bitcoin in particular has been used as money and that the ability to do so can be regarded as a value to society.

The fact that a US journalist can provide a refugee in Poland funds in seconds using bitcoin and the lightning network has such a "value".

But if that US journalist bought the Bitcoins 6 months ago, and then transferred them to the refugee yesterday, then the refugee would have found that the money he was actually receiving had lost 55% of it's value over that short period period -




Source - https://coinranking.com/coin/Qwsogvtv82FCd+bitcoin-btc


I think the 'monetary utility' argument for Bitcoin and it's ilk would carry much more weight if the sheer volatility of them were more aligned with the much more gentle volatility in our more established monetary systems...

You don't "invest" in money in my opinion.

It seems that the problem you've got is convincing all the other digital-currency promoters and investors that this should be the case.

The great irony seems to be that it's the 'investment' buyers and sellers of these digital currencies that are creating precisely the sort of volatility that's stopping them being what *you* think they could or should be...

I'll change my mind on this when I can ever think to myself that I'll be able to save up for something in Bitcoin over a long period.

That, for me, is a good indicator that something can be used as money, and it's clear from the above chart that Bitcoin is nowhere near that stage at this time...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Bubblesofearth]

I'm not going to bother repeating an explanation of money.

Good because IMO you clearly don't understand it. Currencies are not just about being something you can exchange goods for, or even about being 'legal tender'. They are a representation of the total value of the economic activity of the country concerned. They fluctuate in value with one another according to the variations in such activity and the trade between countries. They are underlined by the tax base of the economy

This is pretty basic stuff and does not apply to Bitcoin. There is no tax base underpinning Bitcoin. AFAICS, and I've spoken to a fair number of people and read many posts on here that confirm this view, there is only one reason people are buying Bitcoin and that is they believe (or rather hope) the price will go up and they will make a profit.

This is very different from investment in, for example, property or shares, where you are buying a stake in the continued growth in economies. Also, of course, in the case of a house you are buying a place to live with all the Government sponsored incentives that go along with that.

There may be some spurious reasons given why certain individuals believe Bitcoin will go up in price but that doesn't take away from the fact of their main driver for buying. They've basically just convinced themselves it will go up.

Once people no longer believe Bitcoin will go up in price it will collapse. The biggest surprise to me is that it hasn't happened yet.

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

But if that US journalist bought the Bitcoins 6 months ago, and then transferred them to the refugee yesterday, then the refugee would have found that the money he was actually receiving had lost 55% of it's value over that short period period -

Actually I know that they didn't. I don't know if the Journalist bought it or was given the bitcoin. Certainly the refugee being given it would not have seen that loss, though If they didn't spend it they would have seen losses since the point they received it. It was sent to help support them NOT to be saved.

Here is the story.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/13/watch-a ... land-.html

However you are missing my point that some of us disagree with Mr Gates as to the social value of Bitcoin.

I see no point in arguing that it isn't volatile (because it is). I also see no point in arguing that some people see a value in it to people who claim otherwise. It should be evident that there are such people. I also see no reason to value Mr Gates opinion over other peoples opinions.

As to if bitcoin will pass the test of time, we shall see. As a transaction method it seems that it's more reliable than FedWire.
As for if XYZ fiat will pass the test of time, well there are past examples when given ones did not, despite the fact that I clearly "don't understand money".

Can I recommend the book "This Time is different" (Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) By Reinhart & Rogoff 2009 (pre bitcoin's wide acceptance).
Over 66 countries and 5 continents Eight centuries of defaults, bank runs, debasement and other follies.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/This-Time-Di ... 055&sr=1-1

Not a word about bitcoin, but plenty about the "Money" that seems to carry so much faith.

[NotSure]

....As for if XYZ fiat will pass the test of time, well there are past examples when given ones did not, despite the fact that I clearly "don't understand money".

Can I recommend the book "This Time is different" (Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) By Reinhart & Rogoff 2009 (pre bitcoin's wide acceptance).
Over 66 countries and 5 continents Eight centuries of defaults, bank runs, debasement and other follies...

That sounds like a pretty good advert for 'fiat' IMHO. Eight centuries and a whole planet to dig out a few dozen examples of where bad management at times of crisis has trashed a fiat currency. I propose a new book, "Eight months of Financial Folly".

[murraypaul]

Can I recommend the book "This Time is different" (Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) By Reinhart & Rogoff 2009 (pre bitcoin's wide acceptance).
Over 66 countries and 5 continents Eight centuries of defaults, bank runs, debasement and other follies.

All of which are being repeated in crypto in front of our very eyes.

[ursaminortaur]

Money has value because citizens are required to use it to pay taxes to their government.

If that really is the true definition of the value of money, then $'s an Euros have no value to us. Because our government does not require us to use them or pay taxes in them. The fact that we can buy goods, use them on holiday or give them for charitable works has no value. Indeed $'s etc can have no value in countries with poor currencies and especially in countries that have currency controls, by that argument.

Which is perfectly true - Euros, Dollars etc are not legal tender in the UK and hence you can't force a seller to accept them. They are in that sense valueless in the UK unless you can get someone to exchange them for legal currency in the UK. Russia is currently experiencing that problem in spades since the electronic Dollars and Euros it receives for its oil sales to EU countries according to contract are useless to it because of sanctions (and in particular banking sanctions as converting those US dollars into any other currency requires bookkeeping at US banks) hence Putin's attempt to force payment in Roubles.