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Proper Bitcoin mining.....

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
Bubblesofearth
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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519683

Postby Bubblesofearth » August 4th, 2022, 8:10 am

NotSure wrote:
yes. Edit, somebody, presumably the 'inventor' of bitcoin, mined about a million of them (from memory) in the very early days (when a zx spectrum could mine). They have never been touched. All is logged on the blockchain. They've presumably either lost the keys or think the price is still too low...


So advocates of Bitcoin becoming the Global currency believe that not only will Governments abandon monetary control but will also accept a currency that will be more strongly deflationary than gold. If so then I can understand why no-one will want to touch their Bitcoin holdings.

BoE

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519711

Postby Urbandreamer » August 4th, 2022, 9:46 am

Bubblesofearth wrote:
NotSure wrote:
yes. Edit, somebody, presumably the 'inventor' of bitcoin, mined about a million of them (from memory) in the very early days (when a zx spectrum could mine). They have never been touched. All is logged on the blockchain. They've presumably either lost the keys or think the price is still too low...


So advocates of Bitcoin becoming the Global currency believe that not only will Governments abandon monetary control but will also accept a currency that will be more strongly deflationary than gold. If so then I can understand why no-one will want to touch their Bitcoin holdings.

BoE


They would use the phrase "Harder than gold", but in essence yes, that is the extreme position.

Try this thought experiment.
https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/p ... ntalk/428/

Very few would argue that bitcoin is perfect, but bitcoiner's would probably argue that it's better than the alternatives.

However crypto currencies can be designed with a fixed inflation rate, if that is felt to be desirable. Monero is designed to have a long term inflation rate of 1%, similar to gold. I seriously doubt that any government will adopt Monero though as it increases the privacy of transactions far beyond bitcoins pseudo anonymity. Design one with a 2% inflation rate and all central banks tasked with that objective can go fishing, assuming that we agree on what inflation is.

Bitcoin as a global currency? Well it already is. Just not one used by many governments as yet.

When I buy bitcoin, I do so in $'s from a Bahamian exchange. I then use a miner to update the ledger so that the bitcoin is not held by the exchange (in it's custody). You may consider that I have moved the bitcoin to the UK, but that is not the way that bitcoin actually works. My bitcoin exists in the US, China, Russia, etc all at the same time. You can't get more global than that.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519715

Postby NotSure » August 4th, 2022, 10:00 am

Bubblesofearth wrote:
NotSure wrote:
yes. Edit, somebody, presumably the 'inventor' of bitcoin, mined about a million of them (from memory) in the very early days (when a zx spectrum could mine). They have never been touched. All is logged on the blockchain. They've presumably either lost the keys or think the price is still too low...


So advocates of Bitcoin becoming the Global currency believe that not only will Governments abandon monetary control but will also accept a currency that will be more strongly deflationary than gold. If so then I can understand why no-one will want to touch their Bitcoin holdings.

BoE


Buy and hodl, as bitcoin fans say (hold on for dear life).

Not conducive to a very active economy.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519861

Postby Bubblesofearth » August 4th, 2022, 4:58 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Bitcoin as a global currency? Well it already is. Just not one used by many governments as yet.



How can it be a currency if it is being hoarded rather than used to buy stuff. By the arguments presented Gresham's law would see Bitcoin removed from circulation.

BoE

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519873

Postby Urbandreamer » August 4th, 2022, 5:30 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
Bitcoin as a global currency? Well it already is. Just not one used by many governments as yet.



How can it be a currency if it is being hoarded rather than used to buy stuff. By the arguments presented Gresham's law would see Bitcoin removed from circulation.

BoE


Possibly because "Gresham's law" doesn't state what you think that does.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... BF61hOvnjK

It IS used as a currency in El Salvador. People do use it. Not everyone, but certainly more than nobody. The thing to remember is that it's easier to think of spending it if you have a bitcoin income. I don't but must convert income into bitcoin.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519878

Postby XFool » August 4th, 2022, 5:55 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:People do use it. Not everyone, but certainly more than nobody. The thing to remember is that it's easier to think of spending it if you have a bitcoin income. I don't but must convert income into bitcoin.

Why? I can't say I feel any such need.

Bitcoin does seems to be a bit of a cult belief thing.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519896

Postby Urbandreamer » August 4th, 2022, 6:58 pm

XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:People do use it. Not everyone, but certainly more than nobody. The thing to remember is that it's easier to think of spending it if you have a bitcoin income. I don't but must convert income into bitcoin.

Why? I can't say I feel any such need.

Bitcoin does seems to be a bit of a cult belief thing.


Why do you use £'s? Personally I do so because I'm paid in them and that's what my local shop accepts. As I understand it people in France use Euros, being paid in them and the local shop accepting them.

You have selectively quoted, ignoring the fact that I was talking about a country where some are paid in bitcoin and it's accepted in the local supermarket. Wouldn't you expect that having been paid, they spend some of what they have been paid on food?

I would love some bitcoin income, but as I don't have any, the only convenient way to obtain bitcoin is to buy it. Why do I feel a need to own bitcoin? As a hedge against what I see happening with £'s. I actually feel I have too much in £'s, I'm still learning about bitcoin so my purchases and stash are small.

Now is bitcoin a cult belief thing? Without a doubt it is in certain quarters. The trouble is that extrapolation from some to all doesn't work with anything. I'm not in the group that insists we should all only live off beef or that ESG is a conspiracy, but share some of their other beliefs.

I'll try to remember to wave to you from the walls of the Citadel. (Cultural meme)

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519907

Postby XFool » August 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:People do use it. Not everyone, but certainly more than nobody. The thing to remember is that it's easier to think of spending it if you have a bitcoin income. I don't but must convert income into bitcoin.

Why? I can't say I feel any such need.

Bitcoin does seems to be a bit of a cult belief thing.

Why do you use £'s? Personally I do so because I'm paid in them and that's what my local shop accepts. As I understand it people in France use Euros, being paid in them and the local shop accepting them.

Well, you've answered that! My income is in £ and I know all my grocery shops, utilities etc. accept that, doubt if they would accept Bitcoin.

Urbandreamer wrote:You have selectively quoted, ignoring the fact that I was talking about a country where some are paid in bitcoin and it's accepted in the local supermarket. Wouldn't you expect that having been paid, they spend some of what they have been paid on food?

No. You said you would like some Bitcoin income, without explaining why.

Urbandreamer wrote:I would love some bitcoin income, but as I don't have any, the only convenient way to obtain bitcoin is to buy it. Why do I feel a need to own bitcoin? As a hedge against what I see happening with £'s. I actually feel I have too much in £'s, I'm still learning about bitcoin so my purchases and stash are small.

I understand the issue with pounds - unfortunately I am holding far too much of the stuff. But then, when one sees the rate at which Bitcoin goes up and down, I'm far from sure I want that kind of hedging. What's wrong with ore conventional alternatives? Even gold if that's your thing.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519923

Postby Urbandreamer » August 4th, 2022, 9:00 pm

XFool wrote:I understand the issue with pounds - unfortunately I am holding far too much of the stuff. But then, when one sees the rate at which Bitcoin goes up and down, I'm far from sure I want that kind of hedging. What's wrong with ore conventional alternatives? Even gold if that's your thing.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with gold. I don't currently hold any as an investment, but have held gold etf's in the past. I have heard it argued, with some justification, that people are investing in equities as a store of value, rather than seeking growth or earned dividends. Others argue the same with property. I have a house. I invest significantly more in equities than bitcoin each month. I mostly do so because I seek growth and the return on assets.

I like what bitcoin IS, and accept the volatility. It's in a bit of a bear market at the moment, but is the time to buy when something is expensive?

Why would I like bitcoin income? Well it's that "cult" thing. I'd like bitcoin to be more of a currency than it currently is here. Hence I'd like to both earn some and spend some (on something that I want).

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#519927

Postby NotSure » August 4th, 2022, 9:13 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
I'll try to remember to wave to you from the walls of the Citadel. (Cultural meme)


Oh dear. A few satoshis won't get you in The Citadel, AIUI. Are you in big? ;)

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520001

Postby BT63 » August 5th, 2022, 9:46 am

Urbandreamer wrote:....However crypto currencies can be designed with a fixed inflation rate, if that is felt to be desirable. ....... Design one with a 2% inflation rate and all central banks tasked with that objective can go fishing, assuming that we agree on what inflation is....


Fractional reserve banking would soon result in a deflationary depression and total collapse of the banking and financial systems.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520013

Postby murraypaul » August 5th, 2022, 10:11 am

Urbandreamer wrote:You have selectively quoted, ignoring the fact that I was talking about a country where some are paid in bitcoin and it's accepted in the local supermarket.


Are they? Is anyone actually being paid in Bitcoin in El Salvador?

And the local shop probably doesn't accept it.

The last report I saw from someone in the country was:

What has been the impact of the btc price drop?

Government aside, none. Most Salvadorans didn’t use btc for daily transactions, so there hadn’t been any impact on the families’ economy whatsoever. There wasn’t enough time for people to adapt and learn about btc, so just a minority might have some savings in it. Medium and big businesses still accept btc as payment since it’s law, on the other hand, small and informal businesses might not accept it, not because they’re against it, it’s just that nobody is using it...at least in the capital city where I’m from. In the coastal area where tourists visit daily, btc is more used, from foreigners to Salvadorans.

Compared to last year, chivo’s atm are now empty, they still work, but there are no longer queues nor chivo staff since most people already got the $30 bonus.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520055

Postby Urbandreamer » August 5th, 2022, 11:46 am

murraypaul wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:You have selectively quoted, ignoring the fact that I was talking about a country where some are paid in bitcoin and it's accepted in the local supermarket.


Are they? Is anyone actually being paid in Bitcoin in El Salvador?

And the local shop probably doesn't accept it.

The last report I saw from someone in the country was:

What has been the impact of the btc price drop?

Government aside, none. Most Salvadorans didn’t use btc for daily transactions, so there hadn’t been any impact on the families’ economy whatsoever. There wasn’t enough time for people to adapt and learn about btc, so just a minority might have some savings in it. Medium and big businesses still accept btc as payment since it’s law, on the other hand, small and informal businesses might not accept it, not because they’re against it, it’s just that nobody is using it...at least in the capital city where I’m from. In the coastal area where tourists visit daily, btc is more used, from foreigners to Salvadorans.

Compared to last year, chivo’s atm are now empty, they still work, but there are no longer queues nor chivo staff since most people already got the $30 bonus.


I assume that you got that quote off the internet, though you don't feel inclined to provide a link. Possibly you could use your ability to answer your own questions.

Meanwhile, I watched this video from "That Expat Mom" some time ago. Should it not be obvious, she is not a native, but does live there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKdpbB5BAc&t=1098s

So, no shops that accept it?

If you do bother to search, you will find plenty of evidence that it's no Utopia and that it doesn't always work or that not everyone is happy with it. That is however VERY FAR from what you seem to claim (ie accepted nowhere and nobody uses it).
You will also find plenty that suggests that it's working really well.

Indeed even your quote says that it IS used in parts of the country, just not as much in the capital.

Is anyone paid in bitcoin? Well apparently so. This video of the history of the Bitcoin Beach project mentions some.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OSVndOJchQ

I have previously posted that I think it's too early to claim success or failure and I stick by that statement. If it's still going in two years time, it might still be too soon. However in two years it would certainly have become clear that some of the claims made today were rubbish.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520100

Postby murraypaul » August 5th, 2022, 1:53 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:So, no shops that accept it?


I never said that, nor imply it from what I quoted.

What I did imply is that your small local shop probably doesn't accept it. I believe that to be true.

That is however VERY FAR from what you seem to claim (ie accepted nowhere and nobody uses it).


I did not claim that.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520121

Postby Urbandreamer » August 5th, 2022, 2:59 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:So, no shops that accept it?


I never said that, nor imply it from what I quoted.

What I did imply is that your small local shop probably doesn't accept it. I believe that to be true.

That is however VERY FAR from what you seem to claim (ie accepted nowhere and nobody uses it).


I did not claim that.


Fair enough, though I should point out that there are plenty of videos showing bitcoin being accepted in just such places. Admittedly I would expect such to be in more touristy areas, as who is it that makes the videos?

I would expect that willingness to accept bitcoin would depend upon how prevalent it's use was in the local area. I'd understand it to be very prevalent in the Bitcoin Beach area. This is because the area was rescued during an economic downturn by an injection of bitcoin capital. People started using it, because they had it. Receiving it they then went on to use it themselves in a circular economy.

If you watched the bitcoin beach video you will have heard of someone's grandmother being persuaded to start accepting bitcoin for street food a couple of years ago,

There was a time (in my memory) when local shops in the UK didn't accept credit or debit cards. Now you can nip to ScrewFix and buy a card reader for £30 and card use is almost universal in the UK. Many in the UK use their mobile phone to pay instead of a card. If you watch video's, paying bitcoin by lightning is just as quick and easy (if accepted).

I suspect that local shops in El Salvador who don't accept bitcoin will only accept cash. Many there don't have bank accounts. Indeed it was reported by Forbes that more people there had bitcoin wallets than bank accounts.

It's still a situation in progress.

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520332

Postby GoSeigen » August 6th, 2022, 3:12 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:There was a time (in my memory) when local shops in the UK didn't accept credit or debit cards. Now you can nip to ScrewFix and buy a card reader for £30 and card use is almost universal in the UK. Many in the UK use their mobile phone to pay instead of a card. If you watch video's, paying bitcoin by lightning is just as quick and easy (if accepted).


Delusional. Local shops in the UK will NEVER use bitcoin.


GS

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520373

Postby Mike4 » August 6th, 2022, 5:56 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:There was a time (in my memory) when local shops in the UK didn't accept credit or debit cards. Now you can nip to ScrewFix and buy a card reader for £30 and card use is almost universal in the UK. Many in the UK use their mobile phone to pay instead of a card. If you watch video's, paying bitcoin by lightning is just as quick and easy (if accepted).


Delusional. Local shops in the UK will NEVER use bitcoin.


GS


A qualified agreement from me. If I ran a shop I don't think I would accept BC payments unless my suppliers did too, which in the UK they don't. I'd also be terrified of the volatility, that in a big fall (as happened recently) I'd be lumbered with a big loss in value of my "Bitcoin in hand" balance was high.

Until people in general are paid in BC I can't see anyone other than the BC diehard enthusiasts wanting to spend them.


(Edit to change a wrong word.)

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520374

Postby scrumpyjack » August 6th, 2022, 5:59 pm

I wouldn't accept payment in tulip bulbs either

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520409

Postby GoSeigen » August 6th, 2022, 10:08 pm

Mike4 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:There was a time (in my memory) when local shops in the UK didn't accept credit or debit cards. Now you can nip to ScrewFix and buy a card reader for £30 and card use is almost universal in the UK. Many in the UK use their mobile phone to pay instead of a card. If you watch video's, paying bitcoin by lightning is just as quick and easy (if accepted).


Delusional. Local shops in the UK will NEVER use bitcoin.


GS


A qualified agreement from me. If I ran a shop I don't think I would accept BC payments unless my suppliers did too, which in the UK they don't. I'd also be terrified of the volatility, that in a big fall (as happened recently) I'd be lumbered with a big loss in value of my "Bitcoin in hand" balance was high.

Until people in general are paid in BC I can't see anyone other than the BC diehard enthusiasts wanting to spend them.


(Edit to change a wrong word.)


I'm so categorical about it simply because bitcoin cannot handle the volume of transactions required. At 300,000 transactions per day it would barely support the commerce of a single medium sized town like Bolton or Brighton. How could anyone but the most delusional supporter think it would manage as any sort or currency? Quite apart from the fact that not a single person would accept a 15 minute wait in their local shop for their grocery payment to clear. The idea that bitcoin will replace credit or debit card transactions is nonsense.

GS

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Re: Proper Bitcoin mining.....

#520432

Postby pje16 » August 7th, 2022, 6:22 am

GoSeigen wrote:The idea that bitcoin will replace credit or debit card transactions is nonsense.

GS

Agreed, swathes of the great British public are set in their ways, they still want to use cheques :lol:


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