Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to ouzo,Fluke,PeterGray,Instep,6Tricia, for Donating to support the site

Crypto crash?

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 13442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703093

Postby XFool » December 31st, 2024, 7:05 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
88V8 wrote:Future generations will look back at crypto, and laugh.

While previous generations are smiling from above.

https://www.icaew.com/technical/technol ... -of-crypto
Speaking about sound money in 1984 Hayek said presciently: “I don’t believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can’t take them violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something they can’t stop.”

So, are you saying you feel Crypto is what Hayek meant by "good money"?

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3723
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 423 times
Been thanked: 1262 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703098

Postby Urbandreamer » December 31st, 2024, 7:22 pm

XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:While previous generations are smiling from above.

https://www.icaew.com/technical/technol ... -of-crypto

So, are you saying you feel Crypto is what Hayek meant by "good money"?


It's an example of it.
Specifically Hayek predated (died before) crypto and hence couldn't have an opinion upon it. It's people who came later*, attempting to implement his ideas that created crypto currencies.

He postulated the existence of very many private currencies. Just as we currently have very many crypto currencies. The "market" by which we mean people, would chose the best, or at least most appropriate of them for each person.

You can find a lot more details of what he actually thought on the subject in his short (146 pages) pamphlet.
Denationalisation of Money: The Argument Refined

*If you are specifically interested in crypto history, rather than the economics then "The genesis book" would be a better source for that. I mentioned it on another thread.

1nvest
Lemon Half
Posts: 5288
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 961 times
Been thanked: 2066 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703940

Postby 1nvest » January 5th, 2025, 3:22 pm

XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:While previous generations are smiling from above.

https://www.icaew.com/technical/technol ... -of-crypto

So, are you saying you feel Crypto is what Hayek meant by "good money"?

Nowadays there's a big difference between money and currency. Deposit money into a bank or brokerage and it becomes the banks/brokerages - a loan. Distinctly different to when currency was money (gold/silver/copper).

Money nowadays might be stocks, gold, bitcoin, etc. things backed by tangible assets (well yes bitcoin is outside of that but you get the drift) that at any time can be converted into currency (Pounds) for transactional purposes. Currency (Pounds) isn't something you want to hold for anything other than shorter time periods for ease of making transactions. The state is also increasingly implementing controls over that currency and when others (state) knows where and how much you have its no longer yours its just a loan that in a digital form could be called in/confiscated at any time by the state via a single button press.

The next gen are increasingly moving away from traditional older style choices towards the likes of 5% bitcoin, 10% 3x stock, 50% gold, 35% cash or suchlike https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... BGrZ1WIRUe rather than the old-school traditional stock/bond blend choices.

Parliament might try and legislate against the demise of the Pound/currency, however demand might overrun that. If for instance a global entity such as Google came out with a 'googlecoin' or whatever that was commonly accepted/used globally for transactions then the Pound might be relegated to a currency that was only used for paying tax bills or receiving state benefits before otherwise being quickly converted from/to googlecoins. Where then would that leave the central bank - pretty much down and out.

Nowadays I rarely hold any Pounds/currency, mostly spend using credit cards (a form of zero cost borrowing of digital Pounds), sell some stocks or gold or whatever each month to cover converting that to Pounds to pay off the credit card bill. With the likes of a PaxOS/PAXG account (regulated in New York) you can do internal transfers between PaxOS accounts directly/instantly, don't even have to bother to convert to Pounds/Dollars/whatever and transfer via 'conventional' banking pathways. If Asda/Tesco/whoever started accepting that form of paying for groceries I suspect a initial trickle using that means of payment could turn into a torrent. The state can only do so much to impede its loss of control but that's up against demand, a single large global entity that had common/widespread adoption of a alternative could impose the state having to accept that, somewhat similar to how the fight against illicit drugs is pretty much a lost cause, illegal but so widely/commonly available/traded that in some cases its becomes legalised, a lost war.

CliffEdge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1754
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 529 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703943

Postby CliffEdge » January 5th, 2025, 3:32 pm

Karl Marx wrote a book that many people thought had some good ideas in it.

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 13442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703948

Postby XFool » January 5th, 2025, 3:41 pm

1nvest wrote:Parliament might try and legislate against the demise of the Pound/currency, however demand might overrun that. If for instance a global entity such as Google came out with a 'googlecoin' or whatever that was commonly accepted/used globally for transactions then the Pound might be relegated to a currency that was only used for paying tax bills or receiving state benefits before otherwise being quickly converted from/to googlecoins. Where then would that leave the central bank - pretty much down and out.

If Asda/Tesco/whoever started accepting that form of paying for groceries I suspect a initial trickle using that means of payment could turn into a torrent. The state can only do so much to impede its loss of control but that's up against demand, a single large global entity that had common/widespread adoption of a alternative could impose the state having to accept that, somewhat similar to how the fight against illicit drugs is pretty much a lost cause, illegal but so widely/commonly available/traded that in some cases its becomes legalised, a lost war.

In your opinion, would this be an example of "The Triumph of the Optimists" or "The Triumph of the Pessimists"?

CliffEdge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1754
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 529 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703951

Postby CliffEdge » January 5th, 2025, 3:45 pm

XFool wrote:
1nvest wrote:Parliament might try and legislate against the demise of the Pound/currency, however demand might overrun that. If for instance a global entity such as Google came out with a 'googlecoin' or whatever that was commonly accepted/used globally for transactions then the Pound might be relegated to a currency that was only used for paying tax bills or receiving state benefits before otherwise being quickly converted from/to googlecoins. Where then would that leave the central bank - pretty much down and out.

If Asda/Tesco/whoever started accepting that form of paying for groceries I suspect a initial trickle using that means of payment could turn into a torrent. The state can only do so much to impede its loss of control but that's up against demand, a single large global entity that had common/widespread adoption of a alternative could impose the state having to accept that, somewhat similar to how the fight against illicit drugs is pretty much a lost cause, illegal but so widely/commonly available/traded that in some cases its becomes legalised, a lost war.

In your opinion, would this be an example of "The Triumph of the Optimists" or "The Triumph of the Pessimists"?


The triumph of stupidity.

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3723
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 423 times
Been thanked: 1262 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703958

Postby Urbandreamer » January 5th, 2025, 4:01 pm

1nvest wrote:
XFool wrote:So, are you saying you feel Crypto is what Hayek meant by "good money"?

Nowadays there's a big difference between money and currency. Deposit money into a bank or brokerage and it becomes the banks/brokerages - a loan. Distinctly different to when currency was money (gold/silver/copper).

Money nowadays might be stocks, gold, bitcoin, etc. things backed by tangible assets (well yes bitcoin is outside of that but you get the drift) that at any time can be converted into currency (Pounds) for transactional purposes. Currency (Pounds) isn't something you want to hold for anything other than shorter time periods for ease of making transactions. The state is also increasingly implementing controls over that currency and when others (state) knows where and how much you have its no longer yours its just a loan that in a digital form could be called in/confiscated at any time by the state via a single button press.


I hope that I'm not confusing people by pointing out that bitcoin was intended to be a currency as well as a money. That's the peer to peer aspect.
If you happen to be at Manchester Victoria train station, you will find the Hipster Burger van and can buy a burger with bitcoin over lightning. Rather than using a VISA debit card. I.E rather than using the banking system. I think that they also accept pound notes as currency.

I suspect that the owner of the burger van then converts the bitcoin to pounds in a bank account or deposits pound notes, but that's a different story.

This thread however was never really about bitcoin. It started with a confused post about the crypto known as Luna, which supported the Tera stablecoin. The author of that post thought that bitcoin meant cryptocurrency.

viewtopic.php?p=500022#p500022
A Bitcoin called Terra (Luna) is reportedly 98% down today..


It's really a thread about bad things that can/have happened, rather than a sensible thread about money and currency.

FWIW, when Hayek published the Denationalization of money, the UK had currency controls and the pound was not considered "good money".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_ ... ed_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_sterling_crisis
Inflation (at close to 25% in 1975, causing high bond yields and borrowing costs)

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 13442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703961

Postby XFool » January 5th, 2025, 4:10 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:I hope that I'm not confusing people by pointing out that bitcoin was intended to be a currency as well as a money. That's the peer to peer aspect.
If you happen to be at Manchester Victoria train station, you will find the Hipster Burger van and can buy a burger with bitcoin over lightning. Rather than using a VISA debit card. I.E rather than using the banking system.

Right. But the fundamental question for many, including myself, would be: "Why"?

I don't have any Bitcoins, I don't have "Lightning". I do have a credit card - I invariably find it works pretty well instantly without issue.
Plus, if I don't want to buy from "the Hipster Burger van" but from Greggs or MacDonald's (not saying I would) will they both accept Bitcoins? I know my CC or cash will work.

Urbandreamer wrote:I suspect that the owner of the burger van then converts the bitcoin to pounds in a bank account or deposits pound notes, but that's a different story.

Yes... So why does he bother with Bitcoins? If I were him, I wouldn't.

Urbandreamer wrote:FWIW, when Hayek published the Denationalization of money, the UK had currency controls and the pound was not considered "good money".

Yes. I nearly mentioned that myself. That was then, Bitcoins etc. are now. I wonder if Hayek would or would not consider Bitcoin etc. "good money", or at least better than the pound, now.

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3723
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 423 times
Been thanked: 1262 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703975

Postby Urbandreamer » January 5th, 2025, 4:42 pm

XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:I hope that I'm not confusing people by pointing out that bitcoin was intended to be a currency as well as a money. That's the peer to peer aspect.
If you happen to be at Manchester Victoria train station, you will find the Hipster Burger van and can buy a burger with bitcoin over lightning. Rather than using a VISA debit card. I.E rather than using the banking system.

Right. But the fundamental question for many, including myself, would be: "Why"?

I don't have any Bitcoins, I don't have "Lightning". I do have a credit card - I invariably find it works pretty well instantly without issue.
Plus, if I don't want to buy from "the Hipster Burger van" but from Greggs or MacDonald's (not saying I would) will they both accept Bitcoins? I know my CC or cash will work.


Err, why use a credit card.... use to be asked.

Here is a GREAT bitcoin advert using historic footage of a server at a burger joint commenting about people borrowing to pay for a burger.
https://x.com/hashdex/status/1743287176337482184?mx=2

Anyway, for those wondering about Xfool's question

Here is what I replied last time he asked.
viewtopic.php?p=698871#p698871

Oh and Xfool, does your credit card work well without "issue"? I thought that you had cut into it to prevent it working in one of the ways that it was designed to.

To quote.
XFool wrote:Right. But the fundamental question for many, including myself, would be: "Why"?

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 13442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#703981

Postby XFool » January 5th, 2025, 4:57 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
XFool wrote:Right. But the fundamental question for many, including myself, would be: "Why"?

Anyway, for those wondering about Xfool's question

Here is what I replied last time he asked.
viewtopic.php?p=698871#p698871

OK. Thanks. However:

"But I do use a contactless debit card. It's just that the currency debited from my account is bitcoin.

Hence, with the exception of purchasing the bitcoin in the first place, it's no more difficult that using a debit card that debits GBP from an account.
"

I don't have that problem, as I am 'paid' in sterling. :)

Urbandreamer wrote:Oh and Xfool, does your credit card work well without "issue"? I thought that you had cut into it to prevent it working in one of the ways that it was designed to.

To quote.
XFool wrote:Right. But the fundamental question for many, including myself, would be: "Why"?

It works just as I like it now! Thanks for asking. :)

1nvest
Lemon Half
Posts: 5288
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 961 times
Been thanked: 2066 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#704078

Postby 1nvest » January 6th, 2025, 12:09 am

XFool wrote:
1nvest wrote:Parliament might try and legislate against the demise of the Pound/currency, however demand might overrun that. If for instance a global entity such as Google came out with a 'googlecoin' or whatever that was commonly accepted/used globally for transactions then the Pound might be relegated to a currency that was only used for paying tax bills or receiving state benefits before otherwise being quickly converted from/to googlecoins. Where then would that leave the central bank - pretty much down and out.

If Asda/Tesco/whoever started accepting that form of paying for groceries I suspect a initial trickle using that means of payment could turn into a torrent. The state can only do so much to impede its loss of control but that's up against demand, a single large global entity that had common/widespread adoption of a alternative could impose the state having to accept that, somewhat similar to how the fight against illicit drugs is pretty much a lost cause, illegal but so widely/commonly available/traded that in some cases its becomes legalised, a lost war.

In your opinion, would this be an example of "The Triumph of the Optimists" or "The Triumph of the Pessimists"?

Rachel Reeves is recorded as having voted against the withdrawal of Winter Fuel Allowance ... yet as Chancellor has implemented that. SKS claims to be the son of a tool-maker in a apparent attempt to be one of the working class lads - but doesn't follow that up with that his father owned the tool making factory. Labour MP's each elected by constituents to be representative were rapidly threatened to vote the way the SKS wants or otherwise be punished. Either way, any optimism is optimistic (unlikely to triumph), including whether the Pound predominately prevails or not. There are pros/cons to both sides. Ultimately however the UK's decline is firmly set to continue until the day it will be forced into having to adopt another currency. A land of la la, a international laughing stock. LT/KK were perhaps its last hope but the BoE decided to have them ejected (the economy is now worse that at the lows driven by the BoE in order to have them ousted). I do think it is sad to leave a legacy of a increasingly controlled Open Prison state system, a WEF - you'll own nothing and you'll be happy form of modern day slavery where the inmates are monitored tracked in all aspects.

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 13442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#704979

Postby XFool » January 9th, 2025, 5:26 pm

Judge halts attempt to retrieve £600m bitcoin wallet from Welsh dump

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/09/judge-halts-attempt-to-retrieve-600m-bitcoin-wallet-from-welsh-dump

James Howells, 39, took council to court to try to force it to let him search site for hard drive thrown away by accident

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3723
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 423 times
Been thanked: 1262 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#705000

Postby Urbandreamer » January 9th, 2025, 6:14 pm

XFool wrote:Judge halts attempt to retrieve £600m bitcoin wallet from Welsh dump

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/09/judge-halts-attempt-to-retrieve-600m-bitcoin-wallet-from-welsh-dump

James Howells, 39, took council to court to try to force it to let him search site for hard drive thrown away by accident


Dare I say, Quite right too. It's a legal principle that if you dispose of something, then it isn't yours. Were he or his partner to have disposed of it via a regulated e-waste company who sold the hard drive, then it would/should belong to the person who bought it. It wasn't stolen by the state, or even some other state, but disposed of.

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 13442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#705007

Postby XFool » January 9th, 2025, 6:20 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
XFool wrote:Judge halts attempt to retrieve £600m bitcoin wallet from Welsh dump

Dare I say, Quite right too. It's a legal principle that if you dispose of something, then it isn't yours. Were he or his partner to have disposed of it via a regulated e-waste company who sold the hard drive, then it would/should belong to the person who bought it. It wasn't stolen by the state, or even some other state, but disposed of.

But what if, as in this case, it was "disposed of" accidentally and not by the original owner?

Watis
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1548
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 543 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#705009

Postby Watis » January 9th, 2025, 6:26 pm

This is the 21st century equivalent of those hoards of coins or jewellery that are discovered by detectorists from time to time.

In a thousand years, all the fuss will have died down, and it will be rediscovered. The password will be extracted in moments by a quantum computer and the bitcoin recovered.

By then, the bitcoin will be worth a trillion dollars each - enough to buy the finders a slap-up dinner!

Watis

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3723
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 423 times
Been thanked: 1262 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#705026

Postby Urbandreamer » January 9th, 2025, 7:00 pm

XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Dare I say, Quite right too. It's a legal principle that if you dispose of something, then it isn't yours. Were he or his partner to have disposed of it via a regulated e-waste company who sold the hard drive, then it would/should belong to the person who bought it. It wasn't stolen by the state, or even some other state, but disposed of.

But what if, as in this case, it was "disposed of" accidentally and not by the original owner?


The responsibility does not lie with anyone other than him or his former partner. Like I said, the law is clear.

These days we would certainly keep a backup of our keys, rather than rely upon a hard disk that could catastrophically fail.
i.e
https://www.amazon.co.uk/crypto-seed/s?k=crypto+seed

Some even go as far as keeping their bitcoin in their head.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Brainwallet

scotview
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1798
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 697 times
Been thanked: 1166 times

Re: Crypto crash?

#705030

Postby scotview » January 9th, 2025, 7:12 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:Some even go as far as keeping their bitcoin in their head.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Brainwallet


Well, maybe you've hit the crux of the matter. In the last few weeks the shiny metal (with a thousand year history) seems to be more "real" than bitcoin, which, as you say you can keep in your head. And Bitcoin has lots of siblings, with an extended family which is growing every day.

Personally I'm coming round to betting on the shiny metal thingy and they are nice to hold.

Disclaimer, I've an interest in both.


Return to “Crypto and NFTs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest