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Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
XFool
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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580094

Postby XFool » April 1st, 2023, 6:49 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
XFool wrote:...But what is the advantage over any ordinary debt or credit card?

Of what? Using cash?

For buying things, paying bills etc. Somehow I seem able to struggle on using an everyday credit card or cash - as I imagine most people do (if not using a smart phone)

Urbandreamer wrote:I think Steve covered that.

He seems to have explained the advantages of a prepaid debit card from a FinTech company. Not Bitcoin...

Urbandreamer wrote:The Bolt card? I thought that I covered that in explaining that it can be a tangible physical gift. The person receiving it doesn't even need a bank account.
Of course you could just give someone your credit or debit card.

You think that is the only present method of giving someone money as a present? :?

Urbandreamer wrote:A bit odd to do so when they could use something like this to pay for their Bovril at half time.
https://lasereyes.cards/buy-now/real-be ... ters-club/

Possibly, like me, you're not a fan of football.

Still don't see a convincing real world, useful, practical answer. Perhaps there isn't one?

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580096

Postby Lootman » April 1st, 2023, 7:16 pm

stevensfo wrote:With cards like Revolut, it's a doddle. You change currencies on the app, at a rate that is far better than in any bank. You can open a 'wallet' for loads of currencies. Then you simply use your Revolut debit card in any country and it takes the money from the appropriate wallet . . .

PPS Although it's a brilliant card, it's not ideal for withdrawing cash!

And presumably even worse for depositing cash? I always wonder how people who claim to use only online and phone banking do that. Even my son's friend who likes to use a crypto card to buy stuff and does all his finances on a phone still has a physical account at Barclays for when his dad bails him out with cash.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580102

Postby XFool » April 1st, 2023, 7:33 pm

Lootman wrote:
stevensfo wrote:With cards like Revolut, it's a doddle. You change currencies on the app, at a rate that is far better than in any bank. You can open a 'wallet' for loads of currencies. Then you simply use your Revolut debit card in any country and it takes the money from the appropriate wallet . . .

PPS Although it's a brilliant card, it's not ideal for withdrawing cash!

And presumably even worse for depositing cash? I always wonder how people who claim to use only online and phone banking do that.

I do all my banking online, have for quite a few years now. Who wants to queue up at a bank, not me! You can deposit "cash" at ATMs *, if by cash you mean cheques - remember those?

Why DO share registrars still insist in making capital payments by cheque?

* Mind you, last time I tried that on the inside ATM the damned thing wouldn't work and I had to go to the cashier.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580103

Postby stevensfo » April 1st, 2023, 7:45 pm

Lootman wrote:
stevensfo wrote:With cards like Revolut, it's a doddle. You change currencies on the app, at a rate that is far better than in any bank. You can open a 'wallet' for loads of currencies. Then you simply use your Revolut debit card in any country and it takes the money from the appropriate wallet . . .

PPS Although it's a brilliant card, it's not ideal for withdrawing cash!

And presumably even worse for depositing cash? I always wonder how people who claim to use only online and phone banking do that. Even my son's friend who likes to use a crypto card to buy stuff and does all his finances on a phone still has a physical account at Barclays for when his dad bails him out with cash.


Are you saying that your friend is able to go into a branch and pay cash into his son's account? Do they ask for ID? Just asking cos paying a huge sum into somebody's account anonymously sounds like a good opening for a Jeffrey Archer thriller. 8-)


Yes, Revolut is based in Lithuania. As far as I know, you cannot pay cash into it.

However, I have a very old Smile account (Co-Op) and a Monzo account (dead easy to open). Although there's a limit, presumably to stop money-launderers, you can pay cash into Smile at any Post Office and cash into Monzo at any Paypoint centre - usually in newsagents.

Not sure, but I think that Starling bank also does this.

Steve

PS Revolut is good, but like all the new online banks, they have software that flags up any change in behaviour. So if you usually receive 500 a month and suddenly receive 500,000, then the account might be frozen. I live in hope! ;)

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580104

Postby Lootman » April 1st, 2023, 7:54 pm

stevensfo wrote:
Lootman wrote:And presumably even worse for depositing cash? I always wonder how people who claim to use only online and phone banking do that. Even my son's friend who likes to use a crypto card to buy stuff and does all his finances on a phone still has a physical account at Barclays for when his dad bails him out with cash.

Are you saying that your friend is able to go into a branch and pay cash into his son's account? Do they ask for ID? Just asking cos paying a huge sum into somebody's account anonymously sounds like a good opening for a Jeffrey Archer thriller. 8-)

I think his father gives him the cash but he needs the normal bank account to deposit that cash. Then once it is in his Barclays account he can spirit it away to his dubious crypto card. Although the one time I was with him when he tried to use it to buy something, it was refused, so I guess not every retailer accepts them.

As for dropping cash into the account of someone else, that was possible until fairly recently. I clearly recall dropping a few hundred over the counter into the account of one of my kids and no questions were asked. But now there is a check. As to what happens if you mail in cash with a paying in slip, or leave it in an envelope on the counter, I know not.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580114

Postby Mike4 » April 1st, 2023, 8:43 pm

Isn't the elephant in the room when spending one's bitcoin to pay for items priced in Sterling, Euros or whatever, the wildly varying Bitcoin exchange rate?

Or has the BC/Sterling exchange rate settled down and is nice and stable now..?

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580177

Postby Urbandreamer » April 2nd, 2023, 9:03 am

Mike4 wrote:Isn't the elephant in the room when spending one's bitcoin to pay for items priced in Sterling, Euros or whatever, the wildly varying Bitcoin exchange rate?

Or has the BC/Sterling exchange rate settled down and is nice and stable now..?


It hasn't settled down at all.

However those who like bitcoin are more interested in the mean movement of the exchange rate.
Maybe I got lucky, or maybe Lord King, former of the BOE, is right and QE has crippled the £. Anyway the shirts were effectively free, because the exchange rate when I bought the bitcoin and the rate when I spent it was in my favor.

Or were moves in my favor? That bitcoin that I "sold" for the shirts is now worth more than the £'s that the shirts would have cost. It's going to cost me more to replace that bitcoin. There is a guest who turns up on podcasts with a draw full of socks that cost ₿5 a pair, or at today's prices £115k a pair.

The exchange rate that you see as a concern, is a concern because you are using the £ as your unit of account. Hence the price of bitcoin is what you see as volatile. Some chose bitcoin as their unit of account. There are SERIOUS issues in doing so and they are getting worse. However from this point of view it's the £ that's volatile and weak. The Samurai wallet refuses to recognize currencies other than BTC, while many others record the value of transactions and balance in a fiat currency as does my debit card (which can be useful).

Our government doesn't tax the result of changes in the £/$ exchange, the same is not true of the £/₿ exchange. Should you gain from the change you may have to fill in a tax return. Likewise if you lose. Currently you can make about £12k, next tax year £6k the following £3k before you may be subject to CGT. You can (currently) offset losses, but need to have informed HMRC of them, which means filling in the box on a tax return or otherwise informing HMRC. It's almost as if they want people to use the £ and not ₿. I keep good records of my transactions, expecting that I may have to inform HMRC at some point in the future.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580178

Postby GoSeigen » April 2nd, 2023, 9:22 am

Mike4 wrote:Isn't the elephant in the room when spending one's bitcoin to pay for items priced in Sterling, Euros or whatever, the wildly varying Bitcoin exchange rate?

Or has the BC/Sterling exchange rate settled down and is nice and stable now..?


The Bitcoin rate is not an issue if the thing you're buying is priced in Bitcoin.

Can't say I've ever seen that though, not in 15 years of the existence of BTC. EDIT: Until it actually happens the idea the BTC is a currency continues to be BS. At best it's a highly speculative asset with no contract, no statutory underpinning and no underlying value.

GS

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580183

Postby Urbandreamer » April 2nd, 2023, 10:08 am

GoSeigen wrote:The Bitcoin rate is not an issue if the thing you're buying is priced in Bitcoin.

Can't say I've ever seen that though, not in 15 years of the existence of BTC. EDIT: Until it actually happens the idea the BTC is a currency continues to be BS. At best it's a highly speculative asset with no contract, no statutory underpinning and no underlying value.

GS


I agree with about half of that.

It could be argued, for example that the £ has no underlying value and that it's contract is flaky (given changes in the law's since the 90's).
While I have just made the above statement, it makes assumptions about what you meant by "underlying value". The £ does have a value as a transactional tool, as does the Euro Dollar (USD created by EU banks rather than the FED and used in trade). Bitcoin shares that value in El Salvador, where it is used for transactions but the unit of account is usually USD.

As for things priced in bitcoin, I have seen it. This place is a short drive from where I live (closer than that Nightclub, but not easy by public transport).

https://satoshisplace.co.uk/lightning_bar.html
As you may have guessed the Lightning Bar is priced in Bitcoin (Well Satoshis - What's a Satoshi you ask: Well a Satoshi is the smallest unit of the bitcoin currency). Don't worry if you aren't familiar with how Bitcoin works, as we do have printed menus which shows the GBP cost of all our drinks.


So dual pricing. They claim to be pricing in BTC, though they will be paying their suppliers and the tax in £'s and many who buy will be thinking in £'s as a unit of account.

Oh and as a nod to Steve, this is also from that link.

We have two different Bitcoin PoS systems, the awesome FastBitcoins PoS and the awesome CoinCorner PoS (Which also allows us to accept payments via the BoltCard)

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580198

Postby stevensfo » April 2nd, 2023, 11:32 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:The Bitcoin rate is not an issue if the thing you're buying is priced in Bitcoin.

Can't say I've ever seen that though, not in 15 years of the existence of BTC. EDIT: Until it actually happens the idea the BTC is a currency continues to be BS. At best it's a highly speculative asset with no contract, no statutory underpinning and no underlying value.

GS


I agree with about half of that.

It could be argued, for example that the £ has no underlying value and that it's contract is flaky (given changes in the law's since the 90's).
While I have just made the above statement, it makes assumptions about what you meant by "underlying value". The £ does have a value as a transactional tool, as does the Euro Dollar (USD created by EU banks rather than the FED and used in trade). Bitcoin shares that value in El Salvador, where it is used for transactions but the unit of account is usually USD.

As for things priced in bitcoin, I have seen it. This place is a short drive from where I live (closer than that Nightclub, but not easy by public transport).

https://satoshisplace.co.uk/lightning_bar.html
As you may have guessed the Lightning Bar is priced in Bitcoin (Well Satoshis - What's a Satoshi you ask: Well a Satoshi is the smallest unit of the bitcoin currency). Don't worry if you aren't familiar with how Bitcoin works, as we do have printed menus which shows the GBP cost of all our drinks.


So dual pricing. They claim to be pricing in BTC, though they will be paying their suppliers and the tax in £'s and many who buy will be thinking in £'s as a unit of account.

Oh and as a nod to Steve, this is also from that link.

We have two different Bitcoin PoS systems, the awesome FastBitcoins PoS and the awesome CoinCorner PoS (Which also allows us to accept payments via the BoltCard)


I have to admit that it's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure I fully understand what is supporting the value of bitcoin. If it were so safe, wouldn't the exchange rates be less volatile?

We always read about Gold and Fiat money, and now we have Bitcoin. All have their weaknesses, though I believe that people tend to push gold over Fiat money, even though gold is, at the end of the day, only worth what someone will pay for it, whereas the pound, dollar and euro are at least dependent on the economy, stability and safety of those countries, with their many millions of citizens.

Re. Bitcoin cards, I realised last year that there are cards that do the same thing with gold:

https://glintpay.com/
https://www.veracash.com/

Disclaimer: I don't have these cards, but simply try to keep up to date. I'd prefer to have the gold in my sticky little hands. 8-)

Steve

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580208

Postby Urbandreamer » April 2nd, 2023, 12:27 pm

stevensfo wrote:I have to admit that it's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure I fully understand what is supporting the value of bitcoin. If it were so safe, wouldn't the exchange rates be less volatile?

We always read about Gold and Fiat money, and now we have Bitcoin. All have their weaknesses, though I believe that people tend to push gold over Fiat money, even though gold is, at the end of the day, only worth what someone will pay for it, whereas the pound, dollar and euro are at least dependent on the economy, stability and safety of those countries, with their many millions of citizens.

Re. Bitcoin cards, I realised last year that there are cards that do the same thing with gold:

https://glintpay.com/
https://www.veracash.com/

Disclaimer: I don't have these cards, but simply try to keep up to date. I'd prefer to have the gold in my sticky little hands. 8-)

Steve


I confess that I didn't want to write a huge post upon supply and demand. I took shortcuts in my argument by talking about the £ rather than BTC.
Anything, absolutely anything, that has a inelastic supply and suffers a change in demand see's price volatility. The same would be true if the demand was static but the supply changing.

We are currently seeing this with gas and things dependent upon gas. The supply is constrained, so the price has gone up. The government would like more gas, so offers Shell, BP et-al tax relief for investments intended to increase the supply.

We have seen the same with gold and silver.

Why don't we see such volatility with fiat currencies? Well we do, just not usually in large amounts with any of the major currencies. Though I am old enough to remember black Wednesday. NOBODY wanted pounds back then.

Instead of "volatility" we have "inflation" and would have deflation, were that allowed. As deflation is not allowed we must have constant inflation. An Austrian economist would argue that it's inherent in a increase in the money supply. That is to say that just as gas gets cheaper when more gas is produced (ie the dash for gas a decade ago) money gets cheaper as the supply is increased.

Bitcoin is more volatile than the $ or £ but have you looked at the difference in market size? In simple terms a relatively small number of buyers or sellers can move the "price" of bitcoin while to do so with the £ or $ needs HUGE amounts of buyers or sellers.

Does bitcoin have a value beyond that attributed by those who use it? Not really.

Anymore than any fiat currency does. Examples can be seen all over the world where foreign fiat is valued more than their local currency. Indeed I remember spending FEC in china, and there were shops that only accepted FEC, which prevented most locals from buying things from them. The "value" of such fiat is more usually dependent upon the rate of money printing that the government does, than the productivity of the countries economy.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580212

Postby XFool » April 2nd, 2023, 1:03 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Isn't the elephant in the room when spending one's bitcoin to pay for items priced in Sterling, Euros or whatever, the wildly varying Bitcoin exchange rate?

Or has the BC/Sterling exchange rate settled down and is nice and stable now..?

It hasn't settled down at all.

However those who like bitcoin are more interested in the mean movement of the exchange rate.
Maybe I got lucky, or maybe Lord King, former of the BOE, is right and QE has crippled the £. Anyway the shirts were effectively free, because the exchange rate when I bought the bitcoin and the rate when I spent it was in my favor.

Or were moves in my favor? That bitcoin that I "sold" for the shirts is now worth more than the £'s that the shirts would have cost. It's going to cost me more to replace that bitcoin. There is a guest who turns up on podcasts with a draw full of socks that cost ₿5 a pair, or at today's prices £115k a pair.

The exchange rate that you see as a concern, is a concern because you are using the £ as your unit of account. Hence the price of bitcoin is what you see as volatile. Some chose bitcoin as their unit of account. There are SERIOUS issues in doing so and they are getting worse. However from this point of view it's the £ that's volatile and weak. The Samurai wallet refuses to recognize currencies other than BTC, while many others record the value of transactions and balance in a fiat currency as does my debit card (which can be useful).

Our government doesn't tax the result of changes in the £/$ exchange, the same is not true of the £/₿ exchange. Should you gain from the change you may have to fill in a tax return. Likewise if you lose. Currently you can make about £12k, next tax year £6k the following £3k before you may be subject to CGT. You can (currently) offset losses, but need to have informed HMRC of them, which means filling in the box on a tax return or otherwise informing HMRC. It's almost as if they want people to use the £ and not ₿. I keep good records of my transactions, expecting that I may have to inform HMRC at some point in the future.

OK, thanks.

That seems to me to a good summary of many reasons for NOT using Bitcoin. :lol:

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580215

Postby Mike4 » April 2nd, 2023, 1:11 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
The exchange rate that you see as a concern, is a concern because you are using the £ as your unit of account.


Yes very true, and like most of the working UK population I use Sterling as my unit of account because my work gets paid in Sterling.

BC needs to achieve enough critical mass to overtake Sterling and the currency for paying salaries, tradesmen etc but I really don't see any chance of that happening in my lifetime.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#580225

Postby Urbandreamer » April 2nd, 2023, 1:44 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
The exchange rate that you see as a concern, is a concern because you are using the £ as your unit of account.


Yes very true, and like most of the working UK population I use Sterling as my unit of account because my work gets paid in Sterling.

BC needs to achieve enough critical mass to overtake Sterling and the currency for paying salaries, tradesmen etc but I really don't see any chance of that happening in my lifetime.


Well, let us not forget the issue that tax must be assessed and paid in £'s. As Xfool points out, there are reasons to not use bitcoin.

Many of these reasons relate to government choices, rather than my choices or the choices of other citizens. However there ARE people being at least partially paid in bitcoin here. Like this guy.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/man-expl ... e-18984194

Here is some advice from accountants about the hoops companies must go through to pay people in BTC.
https://www.pkf-l.com/insights/tax-talk ... employees/

So, yes, it's far, far easier to go with the flow and forget about bitcoin.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#581090

Postby nickmark90 » April 6th, 2023, 9:47 am

Undoubtedly, one of the most liquid investment assets is Bitcoin. It is because trading platforms, exchanges, and internet brokerages have been established globally. Bitcoin may be quickly and easily exchanged for cash or other assets, such as gold, with incredibly minimal fees. Bitcoin has a high level of liquidity, which might make it an excellent investment vehicle.
Bitcoin is almost resilient to hyperinflation, unlike other global currencies. Although inflation still occurs, it does so at a predictable rate that is cut in half every four years.
It's simple to trade bitcoins. Simply buy or sell Bitcoin whenever you want, every day of the week, on exchanges. Unlike the fulfillment of stock trading orders, which could take days or weeks, bitcoin transactions are likewise instant.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#581107

Postby XFool » April 6th, 2023, 11:06 am

nickmark90 wrote:It's simple to trade bitcoins. Simply buy or sell Bitcoin whenever you want, every day of the week, on exchanges. Unlike the fulfillment of stock trading orders, which could take days or weeks, bitcoin transactions are likewise instant.

Curious. When I buy shares online via my brokers the trade is executed as near as instant as makes no difference. Sure the formal settlement may take a couple of days to complete. But that is neither here nor there AFAIAC.

I can buy stuff "instantly" with my credit card... settle up later, in about a month.

Still don't see what the advantage of Bitcoin is for most people, for most things.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#581114

Postby Urbandreamer » April 6th, 2023, 11:33 am

XFool wrote:
nickmark90 wrote:It's simple to trade bitcoins. Simply buy or sell Bitcoin whenever you want, every day of the week, on exchanges. Unlike the fulfillment of stock trading orders, which could take days or weeks, bitcoin transactions are likewise instant.

Curious. When I buy shares online via my brokers the trade is executed as near as instant as makes no difference. Sure the formal settlement may take a couple of days to complete. But that is neither here nor there AFAIAC.

I can buy stuff "instantly" with my credit card... settle up later, in about a month.

Still don't see what the advantage of Bitcoin is for most people, for most things.


Really?

I suggest that you try buying or selling shares tomorrow, if you dispute the "whenever you want" bit of the statement.
The bitcoin network has been down twice, rather than closed several times a year or at times of day.

https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/bitcoin-downtime/

Your credit card system has suffered many more times when you couldn't use it, though you probably didn't want to at the time.
Try a web search and see how often parts or the whole network has been down.

As for settling up after a month, well that is not how bitcoin is supposed to work. It's supposed to be more akin to cash.

Opinions differ about the value and use of bitcoin, but the facts are what they are. You can't trade shares instantly when the market is closed. Credit is not payment, but a loan.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#581119

Postby XFool » April 6th, 2023, 11:45 am

...And how have any of these thing affected me deleteriously? They haven't.
(Indeed, "instant" transactions - via credit card RFID - have affected me deleteriously. So much so that I have now operated on my card to kill it)

I can see there are advantages to Bitcoin! If I wanted to buy gold bullion at midnight while passing through Perth, Australia. On my way to a major drugs deal in Bogotá, it might indeed be a boon.

However as, so far, none of these type of financial transactions have been a large feature of my life I think I can still manage without Bitcoin.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#581126

Postby Urbandreamer » April 6th, 2023, 12:30 pm

XFool wrote:...And how have any of these thing affected me deleteriously? They haven't.


Lucky you. Many people have Visa, MasterCard and Cash specifically because such things HAVE happened to them.

I have certainly had to pay cash in places because the credit card system was down. Likewise I have had to use a bank card in places that won't accept cash. I've also had to use my own credit card for work related payments, because the company credit card was with the wrong provider.

Look, my point was not that you should either like or use bitcoin. My point was that you were factually wrong.

Shares don't trade 24/7/365, bitcoin does. It is a simple fact.
Hence bitcoin is more liquid.

Just as (guessing the point you would make) not everywhere accepts bitcoin, is a simple fact. Nobody should attempt to dispute it as a fact.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#581128

Postby murraypaul » April 6th, 2023, 12:34 pm

nickmark90 wrote:bitcoin transactions are likewise instant.


Creating one may be instant.

Confirming that it has actually taken place is anything other than instant.

Paying by credit card is, in practice, much faster.


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