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Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
Mike4
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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#476833

Postby Mike4 » January 28th, 2022, 12:23 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:The first video where the payment transfers phone to phone looks the most appropriate for me. (I guess it's fair game to discuss it here now the thread has been moved from DAK.) Can you suggest any good links that explain what is needed to take payment on one's phone please, or shall I just resort to Googling?

Another thing that concerns me is the 'currency' risk. None I guess if I can find stuff to spend my BC income on, but if I need to use it to pay a non BC retailer then I'll need a currency exchange facility, and as a total guess, I suspect my bank might tell me to 'do one' (to use vernacular I picked up from another forum).

Also, I can imagine there being some income tax issues cropping up....


I'm just starting out so may not be the best to answer.

You make some good points though.

All crypto transaction require data exchange. A smart phone is simply the easiest way currently. What they are using as an "App" or application called a wallet (in this case a lightning* wallet which is why transactions can be quick). The nearest that I have is a Paypal app that would allow me to make payments over the internet. It's not really a crypto wallet, though you can hold crypto with Paypal.

They are mostly using the Civo wallet on the video's which is only available to El Salvarorians and has some serious questions about it. Others will have more experience of true crypto wallets. It's a big subject, but Civo is not the only lightning wallet.

If you used a crypto Visa card then the POS would demand a pin (or assume that the card is not stolen) then communicate with Visa. The vender's account would be credited, in the UK with pounds and your account debited. There would be a currency conversion fee.

The videos are from El Salvardo, where the transactions are in bitcoin, however note the "unit of account" or price is not. It's still in US $'s. This is one reason that I said that bitcoin was not working well as "money".

Currency risk. Well yes it's big, but works in both directions. Recently bitcoin has fallen so savings held in bitcoin are worth somewhat (some would say significantly) less than they were in December. In the past there have been falls of 80%, so it's quite a risk. Then again it's gone up just as much. Google will provide a graph.

Income tax issues currently are rare, as few are paid in crypto. However here in the UK we have to consider capital gains tax.
Let us assume that you go mad and buy £20k worth. We have rapid inflation and the £ falls to half it's value, but the BOE gets control again. You decide to sell your bitcoin, which will still only buy the same amount of stuff. On paper you have made a gain of £20k and have to pay tax because of incompetent management of the £.

*Lightning is another complexity. Bitcoin transactions are slow and expensive. The lightning network is a different system with different ideas that sits on top of bitcoin. This means it can be cheap and fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKdK-7AtAMQ

Ps, bitcoin was intended to be more like cash. Hence you carry bitcoin in a "Wallet". Like cash you can lose it. Of course you could also have someone look after it for you.



I was asking from the point of view of me being a retailer and wanting to accept payment in BitCoin. If all my customers wanted to pay in BC I could rack up a bank balance of £20k in no time at all so it would not be a caee of me buying £20k-worth as 'an investment', I really would be wanting to use it as a currency. Accept payment in it, pay my suppliers, pay my tax bill, settle my VAT account....

Oh yes and VAT, how would that work?

These are the types of issues that make me doubt it has come of age as a currency.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#476889

Postby Urbandreamer » January 28th, 2022, 2:49 pm

Mike4 wrote:I was asking from the point of view of me being a retailer and wanting to accept payment in BitCoin. If all my customers wanted to pay in BC I could rack up a bank balance of £20k in no time at all so it would not be a caee of me buying £20k-worth as 'an investment', I really would be wanting to use it as a currency. Accept payment in it, pay my suppliers, pay my tax bill, settle my VAT account....

Oh yes and VAT, how would that work?

These are the types of issues that make me doubt it has come of age as a currency.


I thought that tax on "retailers" wasn't called income tax but corporation tax. Income tax is paid by the employed, self-employed or sole trader.

Were you to price in £'s and accept bitcoin, accounting should be relatively simple. You would have to work out a conversion rate at the time of transaction in order to ask for that amount of bitcoin, but as you have seen Apps can do that for you. You would still have to pay the taxes in £'s though.

That's really a function of the tax system, rather than a function of money or currency.

A quick bit of research found a 2017 article pointing out both that tax would need accounting for and that the same would be true if you accepted Euro's. It also pointed out that the authorities might view you with grave suspicion. Hopefully that is less true five years later which is why I provide no link.

It's probably more effort than you want, but Banks do exist specifically to deal with such things. One of the podcasts that I listen to advertises this lot.
https://www.bcbgroup.com/business-accounts/
Apparently he had quite a bit of banking problems before he moved to them.

I suspect that the issues and the fact that our government is not a fan will mean that bitcoin will not be widely used as a currency here.

El Salvador really is a special case and, with the exception of Forbes, we are all interested to see if it fails or succeeds.

Ps, the video from "That Epat Mom" was only posted 3 days ago. She lives there and was not a bitcoiner.
Here is her video when it became clear that the country was adopting bitcoin.
Things didn't go as well for them back then and currency conversion costs at the ATM high.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FijkjGtM
I'd skip to her end thoughts.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#476915

Postby seekingbalance » January 28th, 2022, 4:38 pm

Urbandreamer has done a great job as ever of explaining many facets of what Bitcoin is, how it works, can work and some of its pros and cons.

I'll just add a few minor points if anyone is interested:

- Bitcoin is meant as a currency and a store of value, has a known maximum supply, and is very transparent. Every transaction on Bitcoin is viewable by everyone in the world if they want to see it. The owner of the accounts, not so much, though for day to day purposes this is not even true - you send some money to or from Coinbase, Binance, Crypto.com, they know who you are and they have to tell the inland revenue and/or the Police if they ask. Other Cryptos can be used as currencies but are mainly more like tokens to allow usage. Almost like Game tokens you might buy to play an online game. If you want to buy an NFT you have to pay in the native crypto of the platform, usually Etherium, and you will pay the fee to run that transaction in Etherium too. If you buy a crypto via Binance.com you pay the fee in Binance coin, and get a discount in doing so. If you want to earn big income returns for lending your money out to traders you can do that in AAVE, USTD, USC and any number of other decentralised coins or stable coins.

- there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoins. There were more US Dollars created in the last 2 years than in the entire history of the dollar before this time. Anyone who says Bitcoin does not hold its value needs to look at a chart of the value of the £ and the $ since the 1950s, or indeed the Turkish lira (down 90% against the falling £ since 2010) or the Venezuelan Bolivar - down 500 fold against a halving dollar since the '80s. £s and $s are created every day, by Central banks, but more so by plain old High Street banks who use the fractional reserve system to create money out of thin air, and I defy anyone to tell me how many £s or $s there are in the world, let alone how many were issued yesterday or how many there will be next year. Yet I could tell you precisely how many Bitcoin there are, and to a tiny percentage of error how many there will be next May, or in August 2031, or indeed any day in the past or the future - because the issuance rate is fixed, the number already "mined" is known and the number being mined every hour going forward is known, as it is mathematically stipulated.

- one way to think of Bitcoin is as just another currency - you want to buy something from the States in the UK? You don't need to buy $ - you just pay on your credit card and your card company does the rest. Or Paypal, or multiple specialist providers. The transaction is essentially transparent to you, other than a commission fee and a line on your next statement. And that is aside from the many places that will actually take Bitcoin or some other cryptos as part of their native processes, using standard wallets. Yes, this is more complicated than using a credit card or Paypal or Square, but not much more so that buying Bolivianos to pay cash for a trip on your holiday to Bolivia.

- another way to consider it, if you can't fathom that it is a currency - its a bit like Tesco club card points. No intrinsic value, but you can obtain them and spend them in various places. Only because of the above card usage you can spend them anywhere, not just at a few chain Restaurants in the UK! You can even sell them on secondary markets (both Bitcoin and Tesco Clubcard points)

- Bitcoin is very volatile, and smaller Cryptos even more so. But that is not so different from shares. When the market is hot, look out above, when its not, look out below. Tesla is down 33% this month, but was up 1200% in the last 2 years. Fevertree is down 30% in the last two days, but still up 120% since 2020. Peloton was up 400% in 3 months in 2020, but is down 90% from its peak. Naysayers love to point out how quick Crypto falls, but neglect to mention that speculative shares are just as bad or worse much of the time, and also forget that while Bitcoin is down 50% from it's highs only a few months ago, it is still currently up 3500% over 5 years, and millions of % since inception. Alt coins even more so - Shiba Inu was up 4 MILLION% last year, albeit it is now 75% off its highs. Granted, its perhaps not ideal for a currency with which you are going to buy or sell things to be so volatile, but you have a choice - buy or sell and convert immediately to or from Bitcoin, or hold the Bitcoin in your account (for example at Crypto.com or Coinbase, or Gemini, or Blockfi for spending, or BitPay, Flexa, Paypal and more for selling goods) and take the investment risk - up to you. I recently watched a Watch channel YouTube video of some watch dealers at a sales show and they took payment in Bitcoin both by card payment and by directly receiving Bitcoin from a customer's Bitcoin wallet to their BitPay account and it was instantly converted to dollars.

- Bitcoin and other cryptos are indeed a bit complicated. But its getting better, and while there is a learning curve and you definitely can pay extra for convenience, it is quite easy to send and receive crypto to your wallet, and even easier if you use something like the Coinbase wallet. Other vendors are making it easier and easier - Paypal the biggest name, but many others, and there are more and more wallets being created to make this easier - the ElSalvador experiment uses a custom wallet that makes intra country transfers very easy, and overseas payments quite easy too. (And yes, they have had some teething troubles largely of their own making because of the company they chose to set up their wallet, but it should also be remembered that while it is mandatory for businesses to accept payment in Bitcoin, it is not mandatory to the people to use it! Dollars are still their main currency).

- Bitcoin and other cryptos can indeed be used by crooks and vagabonds for nefarious purposes. Good job cash and mainstream currencies are never used in such a way, right? Think of how bad the world would be if you could just bundle a load of cash into a paper bag and buy drugs with it! The world would be a terrible place. Thanks God banks don't allow this. And what if you could set up a fake ID and open a bank account, then send money overseas to pay for nefarious goods or services which would never be traced back to you, or worse would be traced to some innocent person who leaked their personal details on Facebook? Oh, the things that could go on, if this was possible. The FBI are on record as saying they love Crypto as it is Waaaaay more traceable than cash or clever bank account use - this constant "Bitcoin is only any use for criminals and drug dealers" is just a lazy and hackneyed trope, parroted by those who don't know, or bandies around by people who should know better but feel they ca use it for political games (like Elizabeth Warren in the US).

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477071

Postby Aegis » January 29th, 2022, 2:59 pm

seekingbalance wrote:Urbandreamer has done a great job as ever of explaining many facets of what Bitcoin is, how it works, can work and some of its pros and cons.

I'll just add a few minor points if anyone is interested:

- Bitcoin is meant as a currency and a store of value, has a known maximum supply, and is very transparent. Every transaction on Bitcoin is viewable by everyone in the world if they want to see it. The owner of the accounts, not so much, though for day to day purposes this is not even true - you send some money to or from Coinbase, Binance, Crypto.com, they know who you are and they have to tell the inland revenue and/or the Police if they ask. Other Cryptos can be used as currencies but are mainly more like tokens to allow usage. Almost like Game tokens you might buy to play an online game. If you want to buy an NFT you have to pay in the native crypto of the platform, usually Etherium, and you will pay the fee to run that transaction in Etherium too. If you buy a crypto via Binance.com you pay the fee in Binance coin, and get a discount in doing so. If you want to earn big income returns for lending your money out to traders you can do that in AAVE, USTD, USC and any number of other decentralised coins or stable coins.


It might be called a currency, but in reality it's closer to a commodity. People trade currency for quantities of stuff, and effectively need to convert it back into currency for all transactions. You won't find much stuff actually priced in BTC, but you can convert BTC into cash notionally and exchange a certain number for a certain product. It's starting to have some of the features of a currency, but the main stumbling block for this is the entirely unpredictable price of the asset, which makes it wholly unsuitable for fixed pricing of products.

- there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoins. There were more US Dollars created in the last 2 years than in the entire history of the dollar before this time. Anyone who says Bitcoin does not hold its value needs to look at a chart of the value of the £ and the $ since the 1950s, or indeed the Turkish lira (down 90% against the falling £ since 2010) or the Venezuelan Bolivar - down 500 fold against a halving dollar since the '80s. £s and $s are created every day, by Central banks, but more so by plain old High Street banks who use the fractional reserve system to create money out of thin air, and I defy anyone to tell me how many £s or $s there are in the world, let alone how many were issued yesterday or how many there will be next year. Yet I could tell you precisely how many Bitcoin there are, and to a tiny percentage of error how many there will be next May, or in August 2031, or indeed any day in the past or the future - because the issuance rate is fixed, the number already "mined" is known and the number being mined every hour going forward is known, as it is mathematically stipulated.


This is entirely true, the bitcoin network has built-in scarcity. The issue is that scarcity doesn't have any automatic link to value, plus the entire network can be copied and renamed for a new token to be created with identical features. As such, the scarcity is only for a given network - an infinite number of crypto tokens could be created.

- one way to think of Bitcoin is as just another currency - you want to buy something from the States in the UK? You don't need to buy $ - you just pay on your credit card and your card company does the rest. Or Paypal, or multiple specialist providers. The transaction is essentially transparent to you, other than a commission fee and a line on your next statement. And that is aside from the many places that will actually take Bitcoin or some other cryptos as part of their native processes, using standard wallets. Yes, this is more complicated than using a credit card or Paypal or Square, but not much more so that buying Bolivianos to pay cash for a trip on your holiday to Bolivia.


I prefer to pre-load a card with the currency I intend to spend in. That way I always know what exchange rate I'm getting, which in turn allows me to fully understand the cost of something I buy to me personally.

- another way to consider it, if you can't fathom that it is a currency - its a bit like Tesco club card points. No intrinsic value, but you can obtain them and spend them in various places. Only because of the above card usage you can spend them anywhere, not just at a few chain Restaurants in the UK! You can even sell them on secondary markets (both Bitcoin and Tesco Clubcard points)


Not a bad way of thinking about it, but it does beg the question as to how a Clubcard point could ever be considered to have tens of thousands of dollars of value.

- Bitcoin is very volatile, and smaller Cryptos even more so. But that is not so different from shares. When the market is hot, look out above, when its not, look out below. Tesla is down 33% this month, but was up 1200% in the last 2 years. Fevertree is down 30% in the last two days, but still up 120% since 2020. Peloton was up 400% in 3 months in 2020, but is down 90% from its peak. Naysayers love to point out how quick Crypto falls, but neglect to mention that speculative shares are just as bad or worse much of the time, and also forget that while Bitcoin is down 50% from it's highs only a few months ago, it is still currently up 3500% over 5 years, and millions of % since inception. Alt coins even more so - Shiba Inu was up 4 MILLION% last year, albeit it is now 75% off its highs. Granted, its perhaps not ideal for a currency with which you are going to buy or sell things to be so volatile, but you have a choice - buy or sell and convert immediately to or from Bitcoin, or hold the Bitcoin in your account (for example at Crypto.com or Coinbase, or Gemini, or Blockfi for spending, or BitPay, Flexa, Paypal and more for selling goods) and take the investment risk - up to you. I recently watched a Watch channel YouTube video of some watch dealers at a sales show and they took payment in Bitcoin both by card payment and by directly receiving Bitcoin from a customer's Bitcoin wallet to their BitPay account and it was instantly converted to dollars.


The volatility makes it unsuitable as a currency, not an investment. The problem with it as an investment is that ultimately it does nothing productive, so it's a bit like trading the title deed to a piece of land on the moon of an exoplanet - to me that makes no sense at all as an investment, and I genuinely fail to see why so much value is placed on these tokens.

- Bitcoin and other cryptos are indeed a bit complicated. But its getting better, and while there is a learning curve and you definitely can pay extra for convenience, it is quite easy to send and receive crypto to your wallet, and even easier if you use something like the Coinbase wallet. Other vendors are making it easier and easier - Paypal the biggest name, but many others, and there are more and more wallets being created to make this easier - the ElSalvador experiment uses a custom wallet that makes intra country transfers very easy, and overseas payments quite easy too. (And yes, they have had some teething troubles largely of their own making because of the company they chose to set up their wallet, but it should also be remembered that while it is mandatory for businesses to accept payment in Bitcoin, it is not mandatory to the people to use it! Dollars are still their main currency).


The technology behind bitcoin and others is interesting, but I expect that we will see existing companies starting to use the technology for in-house projects that will make the current load of crypto assets obsolete. Coupled with the intense energy wastage for bitcoin, I just can't see this surviving in the long run.

- Bitcoin and other cryptos can indeed be used by crooks and vagabonds for nefarious purposes. Good job cash and mainstream currencies are never used in such a way, right? Think of how bad the world would be if you could just bundle a load of cash into a paper bag and buy drugs with it! The world would be a terrible place. Thanks God banks don't allow this. And what if you could set up a fake ID and open a bank account, then send money overseas to pay for nefarious goods or services which would never be traced back to you, or worse would be traced to some innocent person who leaked their personal details on Facebook? Oh, the things that could go on, if this was possible. The FBI are on record as saying they love Crypto as it is Waaaaay more traceable than cash or clever bank account use - this constant "Bitcoin is only any use for criminals and drug dealers" is just a lazy and hackneyed trope, parroted by those who don't know, or bandies around by people who should know better but feel they ca use it for political games (like Elizabeth Warren in the US).


I've always thought of this as something of a red herring. I don't see any real use case in reality that needs a cryptocurrency as a solution. The fact that it might be used by criminals is entirely irrelevant to me, because as you correctly say the existing cash systems can already be used for nefarious purposes.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477075

Postby Lootman » January 29th, 2022, 3:11 pm

Aegis wrote:I don't see any real use case in reality that needs a cryptocurrency as a solution. The fact that it might be used by criminals is entirely irrelevant to me, because as you correctly say the existing cash systems can already be used for nefarious purposes.

One valid use is where I want to conduct a transaction and know that its details will be private. Obviously that might be of value to someone with criminal intent. But it can also just be a desire for others to not know who bought what, where and when. In that sense it is like using cash rather than a debt/credit card or cheque.

But cash has the problem that it can and is devalued by governments. Likewise Tesco points or air miles can be devalued by their sponsor. Crypto, like gold and diamonds, cannot be debased by a third party. Although that said they can have price volatility. It's just not caused by manipulation because there is no monopoly owner or controller.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477080

Postby Mike4 » January 29th, 2022, 3:44 pm

Lootman wrote:One valid use is where I want to conduct a transaction and know that its details will be private.


But is that actually true though? As I understand it, every crypto transaction is in the public domain, so the transaction is not private and can be inspected. This is why the police say they prefer crims to use crypto rather than cash.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477084

Postby Lootman » January 29th, 2022, 3:50 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Lootman wrote:One valid use is where I want to conduct a transaction and know that its details will be private.

But is that actually true though? As I understand it, every crypto transaction is in the public domain, so the transaction is not private and can be inspected. This is why the police say they prefer crims to use crypto rather than cash.

But is it in the public domain? Where would I look to see those transactions? Do they identify the real life person, the recipient, the value of the transaction, what was exchanged etc?

Obviously if the CIA want to trace it then they probably can. But it would remain hidden from the rest of the world, meaning that I don't get junk mail or begging emails from the world and his wife just because I once donated to a cause.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477096

Postby 1nvest » January 29th, 2022, 4:18 pm

Lootman wrote:One valid use is where I want to conduct a transaction and know that its details will be private.

Private whilst the present day cryptography remains resilient to being broken. Todays cryptography technology however can relatively quickly become old/obsolete such that copies of todays encrypted ledger might be trivially broken/viewed by tomorrows technology. Many states and other entities are making copies of the ledger for the purpose of being later able to fully visualise all activities that occurred in the past, as that will enable them to chase down the likes of evaders and 4am raid/seize current equipment/data to make more fuller investigations. At one time DES, tripple DES, Blowfish ...etc were considered as being secure, but no more. Fundamentally the whole public/private key based cryptography/hashing is at risk from quantum computing, China's ‘Jiuzhang 2’ can calculate in one millisecond, a task that would otherwise take the world’s fastest conventional computer 30 trillion years to process. When the 'difficult to calculate' private key becomes trivially crackable then anything that key protected is also as good as lost.
But cash has the problem that it can and is devalued by governments. Likewise Tesco points or air miles can be devalued by their sponsor. Crypto, like gold and diamonds, cannot be debased by a third party.

Its nothing like gold or other physical assets as its virtual, based only on trust. Nothing like cash or Tesco points either as they're backed by the state/sponsors. Not backed, not regulated, virtual assets ... leaves just trust that you will be able to trade with others but at any time risk seeing that trust being lost and being left with nothing.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477101

Postby 1nvest » January 29th, 2022, 4:44 pm

Lootman wrote:But is it in the public domain? Where would I look to see those transactions? Do they identify the real life person, the recipient, the value of the transaction, what was exchanged etc?

Most of internet activity is encrypted, https instead of open http text only. But big data analysis finds other ways around. For instance you might connect to a web site and have its content passed to you via https encrypted data, however when you opted to visit that site a DNS lookup was made, more often via google servers, that facilitated the domain name to be converted to the IP numerical address, so google could openly see the activity of your IP, the remote IP, along with the encrypted data flow. Chances are if they pull the same web site content they also see the clear (non encrypted) content as well. Given both the clear text and encrypted text then deducing the key that was used to encrypt the data is considered as being trivial. Likely more often they don't compute that as all they're interested in is linking that activity/content to you, personal profiling your habits/interests/activities. With such recorded ... forever, until they know more about you than you do yourself.

Google and others apply multiple such 'attacks' (privacy invasion). You in effect agree to give up your privacy in order for 'free' content/mechanisms. They're not truly free. Some devices shout out inaudible tones and/or listen report such tone detection's, hi, I'm Adams phone and I can hear Bob's phone nearby ... type tracing. Other monitors include pattern matching, how quickly you might type or patterns in how you move the mouse/cursor ...etc. are just some of the means by which activities/locations can be pinned down to individuals. There's a massive industry out there of activity tracking/individual profiling that rightfully governments should be blocking but don't as they also like the idea of knowing where everyone is and what they are doing (Open Prison).

Even those that try to 'go-dark' can stand out by their absence. Public crowd scanners sees 1000 people of which it associates 999 devices/known-phones and the automation might opt to track the one individual that is 'unknown'. Zooming in and facial recognition identifies them as being lootman whose already known to the system and obviously forgotten his phone today.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477134

Postby scrumpyjack » January 29th, 2022, 6:16 pm

1nvest wrote:Even those that try to 'go-dark' can stand out by their absence. Public crowd scanners sees 1000 people of which it associates 999 devices/known-phones and the automation might opt to track the one individual that is 'unknown'. Zooming in and facial recognition identifies them as being lootman whose already known to the system and obviously forgotten his phone today.


It's OK he'll wear his Boris Johnson mask! That'll confuse the bot :D

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477141

Postby Urbandreamer » January 29th, 2022, 6:46 pm

1nvest wrote:
Lootman wrote:One valid use is where I want to conduct a transaction and know that its details will be private.

Private whilst the present day cryptography remains resilient to being broken. Todays cryptography technology however can relatively quickly become old/obsolete such that copies of todays encrypted ledger might be trivially broken/viewed by tomorrows technology.


Can I point out that this is rubbish. Decoding something doesn't create information that isn't contained within what is decoded. As has been pointed out transactions are public. The encryption is used to prevent false transactions being inserted. 1nvest needs a different argument.

Any bitcoin node can insert false transactions, which will then be voted out of the ledger, as that node will be the only one carrying the transaction. So why not try it? Well it costs. IT COSTS! That is the reason that bitcoin uses so much energy. It's a COST upon those who keep the ledger to discourage false transactions.

I would encourage members of this board to actually research the subject. I don't have a problem with people saying that Ripple is "better" because it uses less energy, or "worse" because it's owned by a company and a monopolistic part of the capitalist system. I do have a problem if it's not an opinion and just simply both wrong and widely known to be wrong.

I invite people to read the original bitcoin Whitepaper. After all unlike Hayek's book, it's only 9 pages long. The privacy part is on page 6 if you are only interested in why 1invest is wrong, though of course right in the sense that additional information may be used to identify someone.
https://www.modeapp.com/bitcoin-whitepaper

Lootman's point about effort is relevant. EVEN our government has been known to recommend that people hold shares in nominee accounts to prevent boiler room scams.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477164

Postby scotview » January 29th, 2022, 9:23 pm

I put some money into Bitcoin some time ago as a speculative play and as a learning curve to some extent. I withdrew my money at a slight loss (phew). For what it's worth, I would make the following comments.

1. I personally think that Digital Currencies (other than Future Sovereign Digital Currencies) are purely a speculative play. I see no real use for it as a payment method. I do not think it is a valid tangible store of wealth like gold or real estate.

2. Future Sovereign Digital currencies I think will crush the current plethora of Digital Coins.

3. My other reason for selling out was that I was personally nervous of having assets with a crypto exchange. I had assets lodged with such an exchange but I wasn't truly confident that my assets were secure.

4 The recent craze for the linked NFT's have further strengthened my belief that the "crypto" environment is based on a philosophy that I don't understand.

Not sure if the above are relevant for the OP.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477169

Postby Urbandreamer » January 29th, 2022, 9:41 pm

scotview wrote:I put some money into Bitcoin some time ago as a speculative play and as a learning curve to some extent. I withdrew my money at a slight loss (phew). For what it's worth, I would make the following comments.

1. I personally think that Digital Currencies (other than Future Sovereign Digital Currencies) are purely a speculative play. I see no real use for it as a payment method. I do not think it is a valid tangible store of wealth like gold.
...

Not sure if the above are relevant for the OP.


For what it's worth, my first purchase was in November.
I have been interested in bitcoin for what seems like decades, but clearly can't be.

I would like people like Mike4 to accept bitcoin, and the fact that they didn't is what stopped me becoming involved.

It's now a "currency" in the term medium for exchange in El Salvador. That flipped it from being interesting, to being a currency in my viewpoint. I don't regard it as an investment, but what it actually is depends upon what you want it to be. You can "invest" in Yen. You can speculate on the exchange between $'s and ¥. Or you can regard ¥ as simply currency.

As I have said I hold a tiny amount of bitcoin, but I regard it as like holding a tiny amount of $ or ¥.

Like you I'm not sure if that is relevant to the OP or even if they will understand m viewpoint.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477186

Postby Mike4 » January 29th, 2022, 10:51 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
I would like people like Mike4 to accept bitcoin, and the fact that they didn't is what stopped me becoming involved.


And from your, seekingbalance's and others' explanations, it seems astonishingly complicated, technically, for me to set up something to accept BC in payment.

Many seem to involve a frig, i.e. the transaction seeming to take place in Sterling and get converted to/from BC at the start or finish. All of them seem to have to involve third parties I still don't fully trust with potentially very large sums e.g. PayPal.

A final fatal flaw for me as a retailer is the massive volatility. For this reason I suspect, there seems to be no BC-£ exchange rate like there is $-£ and any other currency, so I conclude BC is not a currency in the conventional meaning of the word. Until a crypto comes along with some sort of brake or damping on its value/exchange rate, I don't think I'll accept crypto in payment for my boiler fixes. Pricing my services for a start seems impossible.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477199

Postby Urbandreamer » January 29th, 2022, 11:43 pm

Mike4 wrote:Many seem to involve a frig, .


I can't take issue with your stance. Of course there is a "frig" with accepting VISA.

I think that fact has been national news regarding Amazon-uk deciding not to accept it. Of course there was something for them to negotiate with hence you can use VISA to pay for things through them now.

I do ask you to look back and regard the fact that I pointed out that it was not without cost.
While I desire the likes of you, where I live, to accept bitcoin. It is very much up to you. IT WILL COST YOU.

As I said Money is an opinion.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477208

Postby 1nvest » January 30th, 2022, 8:18 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
1nvest wrote:
Lootman wrote:One valid use is where I want to conduct a transaction and know that its details will be private.

Private whilst the present day cryptography remains resilient to being broken. Todays cryptography technology however can relatively quickly become old/obsolete such that copies of todays encrypted ledger might be trivially broken/viewed by tomorrows technology.

Can I point out that this is rubbish. Decoding something doesn't create information that isn't contained within what is decoded. As has been pointed out transactions are public. The encryption is used to prevent false transactions being inserted. 1nvest needs a different argument.

Any bitcoin node can insert false transactions, which will then be voted out of the ledger, as that node will be the only one carrying the transaction. So why not try it? Well it costs. IT COSTS! That is the reason that bitcoin uses so much energy. It's a COST upon those who keep the ledger to discourage false transactions.

I would encourage members of this board to actually research the subject. I don't have a problem with people saying that Ripple is "better" because it uses less energy, or "worse" because it's owned by a company and a monopolistic part of the capitalist system. I do have a problem if it's not an opinion and just simply both wrong and widely known to be wrong.

I invite people to read the original bitcoin Whitepaper. After all unlike Hayek's book, it's only 9 pages long. The privacy part is on page 6 if you are only interested in why 1invest is wrong, though of course right in the sense that additional information may be used to identify someone.
https://www.modeapp.com/bitcoin-whitepaper

Lootman's point about effort is relevant. EVEN our government has been known to recommend that people hold shares in nominee accounts to prevent boiler room scams.

Rubbish - flame! (Your opinion!)

The validation is based on the consistency of copies of the ledger held by a majority of nodes. Nodes mine and the fewer coins being mined the fewer larger/more-powerful the nodes. Methods already exist to have nodes eject themselves, meta data to have them cease mining (and hence validating) to instead use expensive resources more productively elsewhere (perhaps mine other alternative coins). Some existing methods are indicating securing just 15% of the collective power is enough to gain the majority and hence control over ledger validation. With yet unknown methods I wouldn't be surprised to see attack methods where just 5% or less might arise. A factor with security is that you have to be right 100% of the time, 24/7. Whereas a attacker just needs a brief gap to compromise the security, perhaps a flaw or injected vulnerability (opensource is particularly vulnerable). Given the low risk (at a distance theft), high potential reward, extensive focus will be turned to attack methods such that sooner or later a major theft/incident is likely. With conventional banking transactions regulation along with central control over the ledger better serves security over that of a distributed/public ledger.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477217

Postby Mike4 » January 30th, 2022, 9:09 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Many seem to involve a frig, .


I can't take issue with your stance. Of course there is a "frig" with accepting VISA.

I think that fact has been national news regarding Amazon-uk deciding not to accept it. Of course there was something for them to negotiate with hence you can use VISA to pay for things through them now.

I do ask you to look back and regard the fact that I pointed out that it was not without cost.
While I desire the likes of you, where I live, to accept bitcoin. It is very much up to you. IT WILL COST YOU.

As I said Money is an opinion.


I'm not sure how or why VISA suddenly became involved. (Yes I have facilities to accept VISA and VISA debit payments to me in Sterling, and yes they cost but neither of those two is claiming to be a currency like BitCoin claims to be. Or at least some of its proponents claim. I think. Or do they? Or is that just the badly-informed media claiming BC is a currency, perhaps?) I am imagining a future where I charge for my services in BC, get paid in BC, and spend my profits in BC. But pricing in BC (for both me and all other retailers) seems like a major headache due to the wildly fluctuating exchange rate of BC to anything else, Sterling in particular, given we all have to count our profits and pay our taxes in Sterling. Maybe this is why VISA needs to be involved, to provide the currency exchange service.

Anyway the point is surely, that a currency aiming to mimic cash needs (in my opinion) to be transferable peer to peer without the involvement of Big Business, so I am seriously taken aback by the need to have a 'wallet' or similar administered and controlled by PayPal or the likes of them. I am also taken aback to read that my future, imagined BC receipts would or might get exchanged into Sterling during the process for some reason I don't understand, other than for the convenience of my wallet or payment service provider.

I can also see that BC transactions must have a frictional cost, so must cost to use. Who pays that? Me as the receiver of a BC or my customer as the sender of it? Or is the frictional cost actually zero per transaction, and funded by the issuing of new BC to the miners somehow?

Ok reading the BC White Paper will probably answer some or all of these points for me and I'm doing it NOW but jeez, its slow going. Only 9 pages but every sentence is densely packed with meaning and new terminology, and understanding it is more akin to reading a legal document like a lease, than a quick breeze through a 9 page short story!

Anyway writing all this stuff is helping me understand BC more fully, so feel free to continue picking it apart please :)

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477234

Postby GoSeigen » January 30th, 2022, 10:52 am

scotview wrote:3. My other reason for selling out was that I was personally nervous of having assets with a crypto exchange. I had assets lodged with such an exchange but I wasn't truly confident that my assets were secure.


Thanks for the level-headed assessment from your own experience.

The above point was interesting to me: why did you not simply remove your crypto from the exchange and keep it offline (under the mattress so to speak)?

GS

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477247

Postby scotview » January 30th, 2022, 11:41 am

GoSeigen wrote:Thanks for the level-headed assessment from your own experience.
The above point was interesting to me: why did you not simply remove your crypto from the exchange and keep it offline (under the mattress so to speak)?
GS


Well,
1 I found it quite complicated to create a crypto currency account in the first instance, let alone download meta data.
2 Unlike, for example, real estate deeds or gold holdings being told to one or two close family, I wasn't too sure how to convey where the USB drive would be located and how a relative would "sell" the crypto assets on my demise.
3 Sometimes selling needs to be done with some urgency. Having to download data from a USB device into a crypto exchange then sell in Sterling didnt fill me with confidence.
Maybe I was being too pessimistic.

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Re: Can someone explain Bitcoin to me?

#477250

Postby Urbandreamer » January 30th, 2022, 11:47 am

Mike4 wrote:
I'm not sure how or why VISA suddenly became involved. (Yes I have facilities to accept VISA and VISA debit payments to me in Sterling, and yes they cost but neither of those two is claiming to be a currency like BitCoin claims to be. Or at least some of its proponents claim. I think. Or do they? Or is that just the badly-informed media claiming BC is a currency, perhaps?) I am imagining a future where I charge for my services in BC, get paid in BC, and spend my profits in BC. But pricing in BC (for both me and all other retailers) seems like a major headache due to the wildly fluctuating exchange rate of BC to anything else, Sterling in particular, given we all have to count our profits and pay our taxes in Sterling. Maybe this is why VISA needs to be involved, to provide the currency exchange service.

Anyway the point is surely, that a currency aiming to mimic cash needs (in my opinion) to be transferable peer to peer without the involvement of Big Business, so I am seriously taken aback by the need to have a 'wallet' or similar administered and controlled by PayPal or the likes of them. I am also taken aback to read that my future, imagined BC receipts would or might get exchanged into Sterling during the process for some reason I don't understand, other than for the convenience of my wallet or payment service provider.

I can also see that BC transactions must have a frictional cost, so must cost to use. Who pays that? Me as the receiver of a BC or my customer as the sender of it? Or is the frictional cost actually zero per transaction, and funded by the issuing of new BC to the miners somehow?

Ok reading the BC White Paper will probably answer some or all of these points for me and I'm doing it NOW but jeez, its slow going. Only 9 pages but every sentence is densely packed with meaning and new terminology, and understanding it is more akin to reading a legal document like a lease, than a quick breeze through a 9 page short story!

Anyway writing all this stuff is helping me understand BC more fully, so feel free to continue picking it apart please :)


VISA was a part since the point that you claimed that nobody could pay with bitcoin. Using VISA the retailer does not need to deal with bitcoin, but the person paying can. As you know there is a cost to the retailer in accepting Visa, hence my point that costs are paid (or managed) by the retailer anyway.

In the case of bitcoin costs would likely be paid by both purchaser and retailer. A bit more like the American Express charge card.

There is big business* in bitcoin, but also small and people, who do it for "free". Well I say free, but what I mean is that they do not benefit. Costs accrue anyway since someone must be paid to keep the ledger. In the early days of bitcoin this was done by "mining", but as the available stock of bitcoins to be mined is consumed more must be paid by those transacting. This is explicit with Ripple or Ethereum and often known as the "gas fee".

A number of wallets are "freeware", as in provided for free with their source code being public domain. I'm struggling to find a phone based lightning wallet that claims to be freeware though.

You may be aware but I'll say it anyway, the free in freeware is like free in free speech and not the free in free beer.

Anyway, in simple terms middle men charge for their efforts. I suppose that I could buy wheat from the farmer and grind it myself to bake bread. However it's worth paying a bit more to the mill for flour, or a bit more to the baker who sources the flour and bakes the bread, or to the supermarket that stocks the bread.

We are not use to obviously paying for transactions or banking, but in the end we do. If the likes of Visa, MasterCard and Amex charge the retailer too much they refuse to accept it. In any case they must put their prices up to recover the cast. You don't see it on the bill, because legally (in this country) the retailer must charge as much if you pay in cash. If you pay in cash, it's likely that they put it in the bank. There is normally a fee for business bank accounts, so again the customer must pay if the retailer is to continue to exist.

I'm sure that you are aware of most of these facts, but how can bitcoin be different?

I pay a significant fee to Paypal if I buy or sell bitcoin. It's significantly more than I would pay if I bought through a "normal" crypto exchange, or received bitcoin from someone paying me via the lightning network. I'm sure that you can guess my reasons for paying their fee. They make it easy.

As yet I have no local retailer that I can spend bitcoin at or online one that I desire goods from. So I'm buying it as a "store of value" rather than "medium of exchange". Some would claim that I'm investing, but I wouldn't as I regard it as little different from buying $'s. Others would claim that I'm gambling. Again I don't see it that way. I use to spread bet, currently have cash in a brokers account and shares held with them. I feel that I can tell the difference.

*Compass will sell you a bitcoin mining rig to use at home or offer to host it for you and arrange electricity supply at any of their sites around the world. They are not a small business.
https://compassmining.io/
Then again, did you think that DeLaRue, who produce our bank notes, was a "not for profit" or small business?
https://www.delarue.com/


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