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Remarkable statistic

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
Itsallaguess
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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512681

Postby Itsallaguess » July 8th, 2022, 10:23 am

Hornblower wrote:
38% of US investors that were surveyed recently hold 'some kind of cryptocurrency', with the number rising to 60% among millennials!

The comparative figures that I've found for the UK are around 3% across all ages.

This isn't telling us that the people in the UK are more sophisticated investors, it's showing what a backwater the UK has become.


If the best advert someone can come up with about Bitcoin is that 60% of US millennials are 'already invested in some kind of cryptocurrency', then I'd suggest another marketing meeting is scheduled sharpish...

As an aside, and related to people mentioning 'ponzi-schemes' on this thread, well another well-known aspect of ponzi-schemes is that they have to work harder and harder as they grow, to penetrate new cult-recruits, and given your statistics above, I personally don't think it's any coincidence that this UK board has recently seen the emergence of regular new posters popping up with the sole purpose of extolling the virtues of Bitcoin on a UK-investor audience...

If it looks like a ponzi-scheme, and it smells like a ponzi-scheme...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512688

Postby Hornblower » July 8th, 2022, 11:13 am

What exactly is the vision here? Governments (which remember are elected by the people in democratic countries) abandon all control over the money supply? Collect taxes in Bitcoin? Or are we talking anarchy?

You need to think beyond just what governments can't do to how that plays out.


Now you're getting it.

Until not very many decades ago, governments couldn't print money out of thin air to pay for things. It's such a dangerous addiction. You get to pay for projects that people wouldn't be happy paying for, seemingly without cost... a free lunch. This has accelerated over the decades. Do you think the US tax payer would have subsidised the endless war in Afghanistan if they were paying for it through a special tax every pay check? That particular cost would have been $16,000 in extra taxes for each tax payer over it's lifespan. I'd guess that pointless war would have been over far sooner.

This ability to print causes gross misallocation of capital, there's no checks on government inefficiency. This completely distorts markets & actually causes lower growth rates which significantly negatively effects our standard of living over time. It also has the effect of stealing people's wealth in a completely hidden way, we don't know it's happening, just that things are getting more expensive, my savings are worth less, I'm not going to be able to retire until 70+ & and my standard of living is going to be less than my parents.

It also erodes democratic institutions. The politicians no longer have to persuade tax payers of the merits of spending their money on this or that, they just go around the tax payers completely & implement their projects with money secretly stolen from the future.

It actually hacks away at the foundation of civilisation, capital accumulation. It becomes harder, and eventually impossible, to accumulate capital to invest for the future.

A money that is beyond government manipulation, means the government will be more restrained. Wars will decrease because they simply won't be affordable.

This isn't 'anarchy', it's just making it harder for government to steal the wealth produced by the people.

They can still collect taxes, or impose sales taxes....it'll just be much more transparent. I'd predict that governments will shrink on a bitcoin standard back to their traditional roles: defence, policing, courts. Unconfiscatable money that teleports also means that governments can't trap capital within their borders. People will be able to move to whatever jurisdiction treats them best. Over the longer timeframe, this may mean nation states breaking up and there being many 1000s of city-states competing for our custom. You want a higher tax jurisdiction with a good social safety net, free schools & healthcare at point of use? You can move to that city-state and voluntarily agree to the tax burden. You want a bare-bones government that imposes minimal tax, but provides very basic services? Go there.



"Buying something in the expectation that it will increase in value in the future is exactly the behaviour of people investing in stocks, or buying commodities or real estate."

You are describing the behaviour of speculators/gamblers. IMO most investors are looking for a reasonable return from stocks and real estate, in the form of both income and capital growth, that is tied to economic growth. Many may never sell their investments.

BoE



Bitcoin is not an investment. It doesn't offer a return, it's not a part ownership of a business. 'A reasonable return in both income and capital growth' is playing semantics. People buy stocks in the expectation that they will be able to sell them for more at a future date, or that their total return will be more than their starting invested capital. That's it. It's a speculation, just further down the risk curve. You don't need to dress it up to pretend it's some noble enterprise. Investing seed money in a start-up or alongside VCs in series A or B is at least risking capital to try & start a new business. Buying shares in Unilever isn't risking capital to carry the economy forward or invest in new technology.

Bitcoin is a speculation, just like someone might buy copper futures in the expectation that the EV revolution is going to require a lot of copper & so push the price up. The copper doesn't offer income & capital growth.

Of course the space is full of degenerate gamblers, scammers, starry-eyed evangelists & all the rest. But, a sophisticated investor might realise that adding a small bitcoin position to their portfolio is a smart move based on past performance, they'll probably get a higher risk-adjusted return than a 100% equity, or traditional 60/40 portfolio.


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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512697

Postby Aegis » July 8th, 2022, 12:05 pm

Hornblower wrote:
Ditto if they'd all bought winning lottery tickets, but that doesn't seem like a sound investment strategy to me either.


This is a silly argument. Maybe like a grandfather saying back in the early 2000s that 'investing in that Google stock is like buying a lottery ticket', when their grandson could see the opportunity there as it slowly defeated the other search engines before growing into the tech giant we see today.


It's meant to be a silly argument. The point is that what you are saying is akin to someone saying "well, you could have made even more if you'd bet everything on 18 in the casino and won". Yes, as far as results go, it's accurate, but those results do not make it anything other than a successful gamble, not a sound investment strategy.

Also, the difference between buying Google stock and buying bitcoin is that if you buy Google stock you are legally the part owner of Google, including all of its intellectual property. You are legally entitled to proceeds from the sale of assets in the event that the company is wound up, and you have an expectation (though probably not so much for US companies) that you will benefit from a dividend paid out when one is affordable. None of this is remotely similar to bitcoin, which I have described before as being like a commodity future contract which has a date so far in the future that neither you nor any beneficiaries will ever actually be able to take ownership of the underlying commodity. My valuation for such a contract has to be zero, so paying anything more than that for it is just gambling that someone else will pay more for it at a later point. This is not investing, it's gambling.




That's an interesting claim, and I'd genuinely like to know how you distinguish between cryptocurrency and Ponzi schemes. After all, if I tell you that I have an investment opportunity for you which involves buying an asset now which will be economically inactive but someone else will pay you more for it in a year or a decade or whatever because they will also be in a position where someone will buy that asset for a greater price at some point in future, then the asset in question is purely valued by Grater Fool Theory, which makes it indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme.


I make no claim about 'crypto', I'm talking about bitcoin.


Which is a cryptocurrency, so let's not play the silly semantics game.

According to wiki, 'A Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors'.

There's no payouts,


Literally in this thread is a calculation showing what the payouts would have been for an early buyer.

there's no-one luring


Frankly laughable, advocates of bitcoin as the next big thing are all over the place.

there's no-one in charge


Not a requirement for it to be a Ponzi scheme.

Bitcoin isn't masquerading as equity, just treat it like a (speculative, digital) commodity. Gold is 'economically inactive', so by your definition is a ponzi!


Yes,gold is economically inactive, so to me it does not qualify as an investment.

Bitcoin is open-source software that people are voluntarily interacting with. Buying something in the expectation that it will increase in value in the future is exactly the behaviour of people investing in stocks, or buying commodities or real estate.


No, you are wrong. People buy stocks or property in the expectation that they can generate an income from that asset, either distributed to owners or retained within the asset. In other words, people buy things which are going to be economically active as investments, and generally shy away from things that are economically inactive as investments (gold and other precious metals being the exception, but even then most professionals view these as hedges against inflation rather than as investments in their own right).

38% of US investors that were surveyed recently hold 'some kind of cryptocurrency', with the number rising to 60% among millennials! The comparative figures that I've found for the UK are around 3% across all ages. This isn't telling us that the people in the UK are more sophisticated investors, it's showing what a backwater the UK has become. Once again, just like the internet, all the innovation & value creation/capture will happen elsewhere while UK investors debate the merits of buying a slowly-growing insurance company with a good yield while the £ inflates their wealth away.


Seems like UK investors are generally better at asking questions and avoiding obvious bubbles.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512705

Postby Hornblower » July 8th, 2022, 12:38 pm

Seems like UK investors are generally better at asking questions and avoiding obvious bubbles.


That must be it. That's why the British economy & markets have been so dynamic these past few decades & have been out-competing other major economies. Oh...wait...


We are going around in circles. We disagree. I've explained my reasoning, you've explained yours. Perhaps we shall return to the thread in another 4 years & discuss how bitcoin has performed against other major currencies & maybe one of us will adjust their mental models. ;)


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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512719

Postby Urbandreamer » July 8th, 2022, 1:13 pm

Aegis wrote:
That's an interesting claim, and I'd genuinely like to know how you distinguish between cryptocurrency and Ponzi schemes. After all, if I tell you that I have an investment opportunity for you which involves buying an asset now which will be economically inactive but someone else will pay you more for it in a year or a decade or whatever because they will also be in a position where someone will buy that asset for a greater price at some point in future, then the asset in question is purely valued by Grater Fool Theory, which makes it indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme.


I make no claim about 'crypto', I'm talking about bitcoin.


Which is a cryptocurrency, so let's not play the silly semantics game.


And of course all dollars are fiat currency. They are even called dollars. So naturally a US dollar is the same as a Zimbabwe dollar. Isn't that a somewhat silly semantic argument.

Personally I do think that there are significant differences between the different fiat currencies and that there are also significant differences between the different crypto currencies.

I'm going to leave it at that, as clearly we differ in that opinion in addition to the meaning of certain words.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512721

Postby murraypaul » July 8th, 2022, 1:20 pm

Aegis wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
38% of US investors that were surveyed recently hold 'some kind of cryptocurrency', with the number rising to 60% among millennials! The comparative figures that I've found for the UK are around 3% across all ages. This isn't telling us that the people in the UK are more sophisticated investors, it's showing what a backwater the UK has become. Once again, just like the internet, all the innovation & value creation/capture will happen elsewhere while UK investors debate the merits of buying a slowly-growing insurance company with a good yield while the £ inflates their wealth away.


Seems like UK investors are generally better at asking questions and avoiding obvious bubbles.


You can go to the reddit forums for Celsius and Voyager to find how well informed the 60% of millennials were(n't) about what they were actually investing in.

That had (allowed themselves to) be(en) conned into thinking that they could swap their real dollars for magical internet dollars that were simultaneously just as low risk as real dollars, but also worth being paid 9%+ interest on.

They are now shocked that they aren't covered by FDIC or similar programs for their magical internet dollars they had entrusted to their magical internet not-banks.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512755

Postby Aegis » July 8th, 2022, 3:33 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Aegis wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
38% of US investors that were surveyed recently hold 'some kind of cryptocurrency', with the number rising to 60% among millennials! The comparative figures that I've found for the UK are around 3% across all ages. This isn't telling us that the people in the UK are more sophisticated investors, it's showing what a backwater the UK has become. Once again, just like the internet, all the innovation & value creation/capture will happen elsewhere while UK investors debate the merits of buying a slowly-growing insurance company with a good yield while the £ inflates their wealth away.


Seems like UK investors are generally better at asking questions and avoiding obvious bubbles.


You can go to the reddit forums for Celsius and Voyager to find how well informed the 60% of millennials were(n't) about what they were actually investing in.

That had (allowed themselves to) be(en) conned into thinking that they could swap their real dollars for magical internet dollars that were simultaneously just as low risk as real dollars, but also worth being paid 9%+ interest on.

They are now shocked that they aren't covered by FDIC or similar programs for their magical internet dollars they had entrusted to their magical internet not-banks.


Just to clarify, "better than the average US investor" is not exactly a ringing endorsement!

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512762

Postby Hornblower » July 8th, 2022, 4:09 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Aegis wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
38% of US investors that were surveyed recently hold 'some kind of cryptocurrency', with the number rising to 60% among millennials! The comparative figures that I've found for the UK are around 3% across all ages. This isn't telling us that the people in the UK are more sophisticated investors, it's showing what a backwater the UK has become. Once again, just like the internet, all the innovation & value creation/capture will happen elsewhere while UK investors debate the merits of buying a slowly-growing insurance company with a good yield while the £ inflates their wealth away.


Seems like UK investors are generally better at asking questions and avoiding obvious bubbles.


You can go to the reddit forums for Celsius and Voyager to find how well informed the 60% of millennials were(n't) about what they were actually investing in.

That had (allowed themselves to) be(en) conned into thinking that they could swap their real dollars for magical internet dollars that were simultaneously just as low risk as real dollars, but also worth being paid 9%+ interest on.

They are now shocked that they aren't covered by FDIC or similar programs for their magical internet dollars they had entrusted to their magical internet not-banks.



These 'defi/cefi' & 'yield' scams have absolutely nothing to do with bitcoin. But you know that.
It's the same argument as 'look at all these internet meme stocks...the internet is a scam. Buying Google (or Facebook, or Amazon) is just gambling'.

There will inevitably be lots of scams & failed experiments in the space. This is partly because it's a new frontier, but also because it's (deliberately) outside the ability of regulators to control. Stock markets stopped being a place where an upstart company with a new idea could go to get funding many years ago. At least some of this speculative frenzy is because it's a space where 'the plebs' can take risk & speculate again, instead of being straightjacketed into holding a unit trust inside a tax shelter that makes 8% a year in this era of 11% (officially anyway) inflation. Humanity doesn't like being constrained by bureaucrats 'for their own good'.

To be clear, I'm talking about the 'crypto' space in this paragraph. Bitcoin is a decidedly different beast.

You know the (correct) point that I was making in my earlier post, the UK is an intellectual and technological backwater now...it just still harbours illusions of grandeur (and an absurdly overpriced property market). The spirit of free enterprise that fuelled (and funded) the age of exploration and trading has left these shores. All those speculators plotting in west country pubs to outfit a ship and take a crazy chance of making for the spice islands...what has become of that spirit? Now we seek the safe, the mundane. Excitement is going to the Nandos in an out-of-town shopping park on a Friday night.

Now that I have that little rant of my chest, I don't partake in any of the 'crypto' stuff, I realise that bitcoin is already way out on the risk curve without venturing even further out. But...I understand the impulse. Especially with an economy hollowed-out by 50 years of fiat money. Leaving uni with 50k in debt to live in a £1000/mth flat paid for with a low-paying job, whilst you watch the property market increase faster than you can save a deposit, and then you see your parents generation living in their nice comfortable homes they bought for 4x earnings & see them taking early retirement on final-salary pensions....many people are left with desperation and despair. The game looks rigged to millennials & Gen Z , so perhaps it's not even worth playing.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512763

Postby AWOL » July 8th, 2022, 4:12 pm

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It has no or future capital or income. Equities and bonds are investments into assets that have intrinsic value and forecast future value. Bitcoin is purely a bet on future fools pushing up its price it has no other way if making a return. It is not a stable store of value either. It is pure speculation with no fundamentals.

On the plus side people have got rich off it just like they did with Tulips. Tulips aren't so popular any more nor as expensive.

If Bitcoin challenges government's and the stability of the economic system then governments will tax, regulate or ban it. The US government did ban US citizens from trading gold.

Regarding generations, the system looked rigged to Gen X. Unemployment was rife. Industry was in decline. Unions were striking. We couldn't get a job for life like our parents. We had the cold war, Arab terrorism, energy crisis, and urban riots. Ultimately those that didn't become rock stars by singing about it got jobs and climbed up out of it. Sure few of us got final salary pensions but we got by. Future generations will have their own challenges and get by. They can be thankful if like me they escaped the world wars.
Last edited by AWOL on July 8th, 2022, 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512765

Postby Hornblower » July 8th, 2022, 4:18 pm

Just to clarify, "better than the average US investor" is not exactly a ringing endorsement!

[/quote]


Just to clarify, the US markets have returned 5.5% av return over the past 20 years in real returns Vs the sclerotic UK's 1.7%


Dynamism embracing new technology Versus Moribund companies and a country in slow decline.


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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512768

Postby Itsallaguess » July 8th, 2022, 4:28 pm

Hornblower wrote:
The UK is an intellectual and technological backwater now...it just still harbours illusions of grandeur (and an absurdly overpriced property market).

The spirit of free enterprise that fuelled (and funded) the age of exploration and trading has left these shores.

All those speculators plotting in west country pubs to outfit a ship and take a crazy chance of making for the spice islands...what has become of that spirit?

Now we seek the safe, the mundane.

Excitement is going to the Nandos in an out-of-town shopping park on a Friday night.


And so we inevitably reach the 'you're an idiot if you don't buy this' stage of the hard-sell....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512791

Postby Hornblower » July 8th, 2022, 5:56 pm

AWOL wrote:Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It has no or future capital or income. Equities and bonds are investments into assets that have intrinsic value and forecast future value. Bitcoin is purely a bet on future fools pushing up its price it has no other way if making a return. It is not a stable store of value either. It is pure speculation with no fundamentals.

On the plus side people have got rich off it just like they did with Tulips. Tulips aren't so popular any more nor as expensive.

If Bitcoin challenges government's and the stability of the economic system then governments will tax, regulate or ban it. The US government did ban US citizens from trading gold.


There's no definition of 'intrinsic value', all value is subjective. A gold bar has value to someone in a vault in London. That same gold bar has less value if I'm Venezuelan and not allowed to access it. It has less value again if Uganda suddenly finds a new gold supply that's estimated to be greater than all the gold mined so far in history (as happened last month). It has no value if it's the only thing that I have on me as I lie dying alone of dehydration in a desert.

No-one is claiming bitcoin is an equity, or a bond, or offers future streams of income. It's also not an ice cream cone.
Its peer-to-peer money that is uncensorable and unconfiscatable, that you can teleport anywhere in the world, with a mathematically fixed & known supply. Some people think that is a valuable set of attributes and as a consequence, it has bootstrapped itself from a market cap of zero to $420 Billion in 13 short years.

As for tulips, 40% of the worlds flower supply STILL passes through the Netherlands as a consequence of their 16th century mania. Those tulips are still paying a yearly dividend of billions after a few hundred years ;)

If I had a sat for every time I've heard the: "tax, regulate or ban arguments" repeated by people who've read badly-researched (or ill-intended) articles in the FT/The Economist/The Guardian et all, I'd have... a lot of sats.

Bitcoin is an existential threat to a states ability to finance itself through money printing. This is a good thing for humanity. Bitcoin isn't some new tech that sprang from nowhere, it's the culmination of 50 years of cypherpunk efforts to create non-governmental digital money. It's (probably) the end result after a lot of failed experiments. It's DESIGNED to be unstoppable. The early versions of digital cash where centralised. Their creators soon had the FBI kicking down their doors. Hence why the creator(s) were anonymous & disappeared once bitcoin was established. Hence why it's decentralised (Napster Vs BitTorrent). The only reason why we aren't running BitTorrent 24/7 on our laptops to steal music/movies is because the corporations were forced to collapse the price of this media to near zero instead of trying to charge $16 for a digital album because of the threat of BitTorrent. This might well be an important secondary benefit of bitcoin, keeping states more honest with their currency creation.

It's funny, there's a certain schizophrenia to these arguments: 'Bitcoin is useless/pointless/a ponzi/easily copied' etc Vs 'OMG bitcoin is so dangerous that governments will have to ban it!'
Which is it boys?

As people say, you can't ban bitcoin, all you can do is ban yourself from using the network. Nigeria banned bitcoin last year (or was it 2020) and the usage inside Nigeria went UP. Funny thing when we have a failing currency, people will try to protect their wealth by storing it somewhere else.

If you are seriously arguing states can ban/tax/regulate bitcoin out of existence it just tells me that you don't understand the tech, nor the game theory built into it. States have already banned and then unbanned it, this will continue. Eventually they'll be forced to hold it in their reserves. Yes, US citizens were banned from holding gold, this is one reason for bitcoin's creation. Gold can be confiscated, tends to be stored centrally, and is hard to smuggle across borders. All you need to leave the US with $1 billion in bitcoin is remember a seed phrase of 12 words & step across the border in your shorts & flip-flops.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512808

Postby Urbandreamer » July 8th, 2022, 6:57 pm

Hornblower wrote:
AWOL wrote:Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It has no or future capital or income. Equities and bonds are investments into assets that have intrinsic value and forecast future value. Bitcoin is purely a bet on future fools pushing up its price it has no other way if making a return. It is not a stable store of value either. It is pure speculation with no fundamentals.

On the plus side people have got rich off it just like they did with Tulips. Tulips aren't so popular any more nor as expensive.

If Bitcoin challenges government's and the stability of the economic system then governments will tax, regulate or ban it. The US government did ban US citizens from trading gold.


There's no definition of 'intrinsic value', all value is subjective.


I'm not sure if I read AWOL wrong, which is why I didn't post the response that I wrote, but bonds have NO intrinsic value.

They are a debt instrument and the term covers loans to companies. Possibly his words meant that there was a "crystal ball" prediction of future returns (or at least a promise of such). Somewhat like the yield promised by certain crypto, but of course he discounts crypto yield promises (with good reason). Strange then, that he claims that yield on loans is such a certain thing, given company's that have gone bust recently.

FWIW, I don't loan my BTC. I do loan my fiat (invest in bonds), but it would hurt less to lose that (on pure psychological view).

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512820

Postby AWOL » July 8th, 2022, 8:46 pm

Intrinsic value of a bond can be determined by discounting future cash flow back to the present. This could apply to bitcoin if there was a known future cash flow. There is no way of calculating Intrinsic value for bitcoin unlike my treasuries and gilts. Now a bitcoin "enthusiast" will be convinced that the government will default but nothing has a lower risk than government bonds aka the risk free rate and if your government can no longer honour it's debt obligations then other assets will have been raided. E.g. property, asset taxes, etc.

As for corporate bonds their higher yield reflects their higher risk but I don't invest in them as they are equity like when one wants bonds to bed defensive.

Regarding the suggestion that I don't understand the tech then you are wrong. I have recently retired from a fin tech career and perfectly understand the technology.

From your posts I can see you have very unorthodox views if economics and doubt there is any point in having further discourse.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512829

Postby Urbandreamer » July 8th, 2022, 9:04 pm

AWOL wrote:Intrinsic value of a bond can be determined by discounting future cash flow back to the present. This could apply to bitcoin if there was a known future cash flow. There is no way of calculating Intrinsic value for bitcoin unlike my treasuries and gilts. Now a bitcoin "enthusiast" will be convinced that the government will default but nothing has a lower risk than government bonds aka the risk free rate and if your government can no longer honour it's debt obligations then other assets will have been raided. E.g. property, asset taxes, etc.

As for corporate bonds their higher yield reflects their higher risk but I don't invest in them as they are equity like when one wants bonds to bed defensive.

From your posts I can see you have very unorthodox views if economics and doubt there is any point in having further discourse.


NO, I have a view on the word "intrinsic".

A company, let us pick Carilian, many on the HYP board owned it, others held the debt.
Did they pay (the company) their debts?

Of course you could have claimed that your sentence didn't mean to apply that word to bonds, but you seem to have chosen to do otherwise.

PS, for clarity, Bitcoin is is a currency. You can lend/give it to someone else. If you do so, just like other things, you can't rely upon getting it back. It's like cash. So here is a question, anyone heard of the concept "moral hazard".

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512833

Postby AWOL » July 8th, 2022, 9:23 pm

To keep things simple let's stick to things I have invested in government bonds. The Bank of England and the US Treasury have never defaulted on their debt. Their bonds are the risk free rate for their markets. Corporate bonds which don't have a place in my portfolio or investment universe have a higher interest rate reflecting default risk (which carries over time and market conditions) but I have no place for them and no interest in thinking about them. Sure I would sooner own a basket of them than crypto but luckily there are better options than either. Having said that a diversified portfolio of corporate bonds can be called especially if held to maturity and reasonable assumptions are made of default rates.

You may have personal views on Intrinsic value but in the financial world Intrinsic value is understood and calculated. This is not possible for crypto. To deny that bonds can be called is rather unconventional and would need some stunning evidence.

It is a fallacy to dismiss the existence of Intrinsic value of bonds because you have a private view of what you think Intrinsic value should mean. A private language cannot form the basis of a dialogue for reasons expounded in some detail by Ludwig Wittgenstein. If you haven't read his work then you should before we go any further.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512844

Postby Urbandreamer » July 8th, 2022, 10:19 pm

AWOL wrote:To keep things simple let's stick to things I have invested in government bonds. The Bank of England and the US Treasury have never defaulted on their debt..


Ok, let us keep it that simple. No the BOE have never defaulted. Of course there is the aspect of consoles where they "renegotiated" their debt. Then again is the BOE something that can be allowed to fail. (The government effectively reneged on their loan).

Of course I am allowing you to move the conversation to assuming that by bonds you meant guilt's, which you never claimed. However let us take that as assumed.

SO, let us assume that you live in a country that encourages people to not work and gives them money to do so. NO I'm not talking the UK! I'm talking history ie the VW republic.

Though of course the UK chose to do so during covid.

Let us further assume that such a country paid such people by printing money (as happened in the UK and the WM republic).

Ignoring crypto or bitcoin, what do you think the effect will be?

Of course we don't have to look into crystal balls, we can just wait and let it play out. OR of course look at what happend last time.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512849

Postby AWOL » July 8th, 2022, 10:48 pm

Is the effect that the government taxes more of your gains? I reckon a wealth tax as well as increased CGT take would be likely. Capital controls are likely too.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512851

Postby Urbandreamer » July 8th, 2022, 11:44 pm

AWOL wrote:Is the effect that the government taxes more of your gains? I reckon a wealth tax as well as increased CGT take would be likely. Capital controls are likely too.


Tax could be legally avoided. simply leave. The other? Are you claiming that its acceptable to be slaves of our government?

Personally I would chose to take up arms against that. REGARDLESS of bitcoin or crypto issues. Either that or swim the channel with bitcoin in m head.

SERIOUSLY, do you argue that the UK government should hold it's citizens to ransom? Strange that others argue to prevent refugees fleeing here.

Possibly the small amount of Bitcoin that I hold is not enough. Seriously if you are right I need to increase it by at least 1000 times or possibly 10 times that!

PS, I note that you seem to regard crypto to mean Bitcoin. Other crypto is more popular in regemees such as you seem to expect the UK to adopt. People in such places tend to like something that trackes the USD, unlike Bitcoin. Of course they are not allowed USD, just as you think that the UK might decide.

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Re: Remarkable statistic

#512881

Postby AWOL » July 9th, 2022, 9:13 am

I didn't eat my answer to make a point. The government would do what it could to stabilise the economy in that situation. We would all be in it together and all benefit from stability. Those with assets would grumble and those without may avoid desperation, starvation, illness and prostitution.

Many of the elite would announce that they were leaving the sinking ship like you say. Some would actually do it. They would be despised for not sharing the burden.

We have evolved societies where governments rule rather than mobs or every man for himself. Taxation is part of that. The measures i describe have been implemented in the past. The UK government abandoned the wealth tax before implementation last time.

How are you planning on escaping your tax liability? I am interested in what appeals to you.


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