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How is Lightning trustless?

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
Urbandreamer
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#601970

Postby Urbandreamer » July 13th, 2023, 2:37 pm

1nvest wrote:In cryptography there is only one truly secure method, a one time pad created using a real random source and where the keys are at least as long as the message being encrypted and where the keys are only used once. That requires pre-shared keys (pad) that are passed physically/directly, not transmitted through communications layers. Even then all valid potential versions of the message (that make sense) may still be visible to a attacker, just that they wont be able to definitively say which was the actual message, but could still potentially point to the most probable version. In all other cases cryptography is based upon mathematical difficulty to solve, that as computing power grows takes increasingly less time to solve. Secure/private at the time, but with time-limits on the period of privacy.


I'm going to ignore most of this post as it doesn't relate to the concept of using cyrptography to allow trustless communication, but remarks upon how cryptography ages.

However I am going to use it for a book recommendation.
It's fiction, but well researched and a good read.
In his legendary, sprawling masterpiece, Neal Stephenson hacks into the secret histories of nations and the private obsessions of men, decrypting with dazzling virtuosity the forces that shaped this century.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cryptonomicon- ... th=1&psc=1

XFool
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#605543

Postby XFool » July 29th, 2023, 2:46 pm

GoSeigen wrote:My elderly mother wants to send me money abroad. She has been told about an app which lets her make a lightning transaction which will be almost instantaneous and with a very reasonable fee. Of course she worries about the security of this transaction going abroad but she has been assured that lightning transaction itself is trustless -- the original USP of bitcoin of course -- so she can be sure the transaction will proceed without fraud or loss.

Jeez! Why not just send a Postal Order?

OK, possibly not a PO. But why do people even consider using some of these new wizzi things? I mean, you can transfer money easily and safely using any number of existing methods - or you can use a method that requires paragraphs of 'explanation' and seems about as well understood as Quantum Mechanics...

https://lighteningmoney.co.uk/help/

! [Big red triangle]
Your connection isn't private
Attackers might be trying to steal your information from lighteningmoney.co.uk (for example, passwords, messages or credit cards).
NET::ERR_CERT_DATE_INVALID

Yeah, I'd use that... (Not!)

Urbandreamer
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#605554

Postby Urbandreamer » July 29th, 2023, 4:15 pm

XFool wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:My elderly mother wants to send me money abroad. She has been told about an app which lets her make a lightning transaction which will be almost instantaneous and with a very reasonable fee. Of course she worries about the security of this transaction going abroad but she has been assured that lightning transaction itself is trustless -- the original USP of bitcoin of course -- so she can be sure the transaction will proceed without fraud or loss.

Jeez! Why not just send a Postal Order?

OK, possibly not a PO. But why do people even consider using some of these new wizzi things? I mean, you can transfer money easily and safely using any number of existing methods - or you can use a method that requires paragraphs of 'explanation' and seems about as well understood as Quantum Mechanics...

https://lighteningmoney.co.uk/help/

! [Big red triangle]
Your connection isn't private
Attackers might be trying to steal your information from lighteningmoney.co.uk (for example, passwords, messages or credit cards).
NET::ERR_CERT_DATE_INVALID

Yeah, I'd use that... (Not!)


Just in case you missed his post, it was a hypothetical concept as grounds for further understanding of the lightning network.
With respect to your second point,
I get
It’s likely the web site’s certificate is expired, which prevents Firefox from connecting securely. If you visit this site, attackers could try to steal information like your passwords, emails, or credit card details.


For those who don't know, this means that the website has not PAID for a new SSL certificate.

However for your benefit I have accepted the risks and visited the site.
I would advise ignoring that site. Any site that wants to charge you £19.95pcm and doesn't pay for a certificate should be avoided.

Indeed I'm unclear why anyone would chose to use their services.
I'm also unsure as to why anyone who got as far as reading what they offer would think that it has anything to do with bitcoin or the lightning network, certainly they don't claim that it has.
They claim to offer
Lightening Money is a service that provides you with a complete set of tools to keep track and protect your money, and improve your income. Discover a new way to budget using our simple to use, all-in-one interface. Simply add your bank and card details and start taking control of your finances through your dashboard.


A truly dodgy idea, but NOTHING to do with the lightning network. Everything to do with banking and fiat. At best they aggregate your banking information at worst they are a bunch of crooks.

Instead can I direct you to
https://lightning.engineering/
They are NOT the only ones involved, but I believe that they are the core developers.
They are also more B2B, so as a private individual I would recommend other solutions should you wish to use the lightning network.

GoSeigen
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#605616

Postby GoSeigen » July 29th, 2023, 10:26 pm

XFool wrote:Jeez! Why not just send a Postal Order?


The point of the OP was not exactly about sending the money but about learning a bit about Lightning from people who might have studied it a bit. And to try to understand where bitcoin might end up if it survives. Reason being: we've already discovered it's no good as an everyday currency, it's also no good as a get rich scheme, it's no good as an investment or as a gold substitute. What's left seems to be this idea of bitcoin as a settlement system underlying payment and trading derivatives -- but if Lightning is not trustless like bitcoin, then to me it just looks like newfangled not-very-good substitute for what is already there.

While I'm here, thanks to everyone who gave their thoughts on lightning. I regularly send payments internationally; recently the conventional companies I have been using have done their damnedest to annoy and lose me as a customer but I'm still not sold on the Bitcoin thing. I can't see how any legitimate Lightning-based system can avoid the very regulations that cause problems for established players and for that reason I'm out.


GS

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#605622

Postby Urbandreamer » July 29th, 2023, 11:19 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
XFool wrote:Jeez! Why not just send a Postal Order?


The point of the OP was not exactly about sending the money but about learning a bit about Lightning from people who might have studied it a bit. And to try to understand where bitcoin might end up if it survives. Reason being: we've already discovered it's no good as an everyday currency, it's also no good as a get rich scheme, it's no good as an investment or as a gold substitute. What's left seems to be this idea of bitcoin as a settlement system underlying payment and trading derivatives -- but if Lightning is not trustless like bitcoin, then to me it just looks like newfangled not-very-good substitute for what is already there.

While I'm here, thanks to everyone who gave their thoughts on lightning. I regularly send payments internationally; recently the conventional companies I have been using have done their damnedest to annoy and lose me as a customer but I'm still not sold on the Bitcoin thing. I can't see how any legitimate Lightning-based system can avoid the very regulations that cause problems for established players and for that reason I'm out.


GS


Err, just a quick correction. Bitcoin IS legal tender in El Salvador and exchanged using Lightning. Which was not quite the subject of this thread.
However I do invite you to watch this video from 2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKdpbB5BAc&t=209s

Urbandreamer
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#605625

Postby Urbandreamer » July 29th, 2023, 11:36 pm

Sorry 2022.

murraypaul
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606058

Postby murraypaul » August 1st, 2023, 9:21 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Err, just a quick correction. Bitcoin IS legal tender in El Salvador and exchanged using Lightning.


Can you use any lightning wallet, or do you have to use the government controlled, closed source one?

(Genuine question, I don't know)

Urbandreamer
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606073

Postby Urbandreamer » August 1st, 2023, 10:31 am

murraypaul wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Err, just a quick correction. Bitcoin IS legal tender in El Salvador and exchanged using Lightning.


Can you use any lightning wallet, or do you have to use the government controlled, closed source one?

(Genuine question, I don't know)


As I understand it, the answer is "it depends". I have, on videos, seen many use non-government wallets. Indeed the government wallets are ONLY available to citizens, so all tourists who use bitcoin, MUST use a non-government wallet.

HOWEVER, I have seen the odd video where there was problems paying because the recipient could only accept funds from the Chivo (government) wallet. All such videos seem to be small sole suppliers of good's and services. I.E the difference between Starbucks and a Market stall, outside a tourist place.

Of course the vendor could use the original "Bitcoin beach" custodial wallet, they just wouldn't get a free gift from the government by using the Chivo, custodial wallet.
https://www.blink.sv/en/about
(It's well worth following the link "Bitcoin Banking for Communities: Lessons learned from Bitcoin Beach" to learn more)

I think that we should accept that problems do exist. They just may not be as bad as suggested by those who are anti-bitcoin.

In particular, and relevant to this thread, was the trouble/confusion trying to send birthday money on the video that I linked.

To return to the OP, it's not for everyone and for many Western Union makes more sense. That said it is for some and they do benefit from it.

Speaking of the video I linked, the family lived there pre-bitcoin.

Here is when it was REALLY new to them, as in first attempt. Ie just before El Salvador passed the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FijkjGtM

Clue in the name of the Channel "That Expat Mom". It's not really a bitcoin channel at all. Just videos by a lady who lives in El Salvador. Making slime with the kids etc.

Returning to your question though, there is bitcoin, the on chain stuff. Then there are other things that are other means to exchange bitcoin. They don't all work with each other. Lightning currently seems the most popular and easy, but it is not the one known as Liquid which also exists. You may know that already, but I thought it worth pointing out for others.

ignotus20
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606177

Postby ignotus20 » August 1st, 2023, 3:00 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:Err, just a quick correction. Bitcoin IS legal tender in El Salvador and exchanged using Lightning. Which was not quite the subject of this thread.
However I do invite you to watch this video from 2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKdpbB5BAc&t=209s


How frequently are you in El Salvador, or do business with someone who is? What about most people? Even in El Salvador, by the looks of it everyone still thinks in terms of USD, not BTC. The units of exchange are quoted in USD.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606190

Postby ignotus20 » August 1st, 2023, 3:34 pm

El Salvador’s Experiment with Bitcoin as Legal Tender
https://www.nber.org/digest/202207/el-s ... gal-tender

"Half the nation’s households downloaded the app when the bitcoin law went into effect. Since the start of 2022, however, very few households have joined the early movers. Among early downloaders, more than 60 percent have not made a transaction after spending the free bitcoin that came with the account, and 20 percent have yet to spend the bonus. However, a small group of consumers, most of whom are banked, educated, young, and male, is very active on the app. This group was not the intended target of the bitcoin rollout."

El Salvador’s adoption of bitcoin as legal tender is pure folly
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... pure-folly

"Some, including Bukele, claim that cryptocurrencies will bolster financial inclusion by giving unbanked people access to financial services and lowering transaction costs for small cross-border payments such as migrants’ remittances. The latter are particularly important to El Salvador, having averaged about 20% of GDP annually over the past two decades. But bitcoin is unlikely to be the solution. Other means of bringing down such transaction costs appear more promising. And holding or transacting in such an unstable asset is a particularly bad idea for people with low incomes, who can ill afford to sustain price swings as large as 30% in a single day. Bitcoin has quadrupled in price over the last year, which is part of the attraction. But what goes up also comes down."

And for a bit of balance:

El Salvador's Bonds Have Skyrocketed Alongside Bitcoin in 2023
https://decrypt.co/149335/el-salvadors- ... in-in-2023

"El Savador's bonds, due in 2027, have risen by over 60% since the start of the year—in parallel with a price surge for Bitcoin that’s seen the cryptocurrency rise by 80%."

COMMENTARY: El Salvador’s Bitcoin Adoption: The Great Cryptocurrency Experiment
https://stanfordeconreview.com/2023/07/ ... xperiment/

"El Salvador’s process of integrating Bitcoin into its national economy has hardly been smooth. However, Bitcoin’s economic benefits have largely been overlooked and understated. The Bitcoin Law’s initial turbulence was largely due to technical issues associated with its swift implementation, as opposed to a fundamental problem with the legal recognition of cryptocurrency. UCA studies indicate that in August 2021, 90% of Salvadorans did not have a clear understanding of Bitcoin, and 80% claimed to have little or no confidence in its use. Furthermore, El Salvador’s internet penetration rate stood at 50.5% at the beginning of 2022. This reality made it virtually impossible for a majority of Salvadorans to reap the benefits of cryptocurrency and resulted in substantial mistrust towards Bukele’s plans."

So the summary is: BTC might potentially work in small, economically unstable countries, but with huge volatility/risk resulting from using a unit of exchange that has neither intrinsic value, nor widespread adoption in the rest of the world. Do you feel lucky?

Urbandreamer
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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606202

Postby Urbandreamer » August 1st, 2023, 4:05 pm

ignotus20 wrote:So the summary is: BTC might potentially work in small, economically unstable countries, but with huge volatility/risk resulting from using a unit of exchange that has neither intrinsic value, nor widespread adoption in the rest of the world. Do you feel lucky?


I haven't followed the links, but the more reasoned post prevented a snarling response from me.

I posted in response to "Reason being: we've already discovered it's no good as an everyday currency".

While a significant number of people here is the UK do use cash, many use VISA or Apple pay as "currency" or medium of exchange here. Indeed I think that I have posted here about buying shirts using VISA, but paying from my bitcoin account, and others paying in USD here, again using VISA. I recently watched a video in which a Canadian lamented that she didn't tell her visiting friend not to bother getting any cash as everywhere accepted credit/debit cards. Off topic for lightning, but relevant to everyday use of XYZ "currency". The root of currency is to run, flow or exchange, not quite the same as money.

My point was that it does perform the function of "everyday money" or currency in at least one country. Do I travel to or do business with people in El Salvador? No. I don't think admitting those facts makes a jot of difference to the fact that it IS used as a currency there.

You can buy tickets to watch Bedford Real (FC) or a burger at their match using bitcoin. Does that means that everyone in Bedford uses bitcoin. Somehow I doubt that is the case. However arguably bitcoin is doing great things for Bedford.

Do I feel lucky? Well I'm hedging my bets. Currently 13% of my "money" is in bitcoin, but to be fair this gives a distorted view. I would hope that most people on TLF don't think in terms of or keep lots of "money". Like I assume most here, my wealth is not kept in currency but in less liquid assets such as shares.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606210

Postby murraypaul » August 1st, 2023, 4:47 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:My point was that it does perform the function of "everyday money" or currency in at least one country. Do I travel to or do business with people in El Salvador? No. I don't think admitting those facts makes a jot of difference to the fact that it IS used as a currency there.


If El Salvador had launched a Lightning type wallet system, just like their current one, but backed by Gold, rather than Bitcoin, wouldn't it work in the same way?

The aren't using Bitcoin, they are using Lightning, almost entirely as a closed system, with no actual Bitcoin transaction, just shuffling numbers in the backend. There is one Bitcoin holder, the government, they then use that as backing to issue their Chivas bucks. And everyone hopes they aren't issuing more than they actually have backing for.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606215

Postby Urbandreamer » August 1st, 2023, 4:55 pm

ignotus20 wrote:El Salvador’s Experiment with Bitcoin as Legal Tender
https://www.nber.org/digest/202207/el-s ... gal-tender

"Half the nation’s households downloaded the app when the bitcoin law went into effect. Since the start of 2022, however, very few households have joined the early movers. Among early downloaders, more than 60 percent have not made a transaction after spending the free bitcoin that came with the account, and 20 percent have yet to spend the bonus. However, a small group of consumers, most of whom are banked, educated, young, and male, is very active on the app. This group was not the intended target of the bitcoin rollout."


Fascinating but flawed. To be fair I really don't think that they are biased, nor can I see how they can avoid the flaws.

Wallet downloads SHOULD tail off if use it popular. I.E less people who haven't downloaded. Then again, they are monitoring only one wallet. There are quite a few, including as I pointed out, Bitcoin Beach's wallet. I really do wish that better information was available. Nber are at least trying and doing the best that they can.

I confess that I didn't follow the Guardian link, they are biased. Indeed if you know their history you will know that they were created because of the bias of others, but adopted their own.

I ignored the bonds link, it's about BONDS!

The last link was sort of interesting, but mostly about the dictator of a small country, rather than the people of that country and their economy.

This thread is really about lightning though. If we want to talk El Salvador et-al, we really need to leave this thread and do so in a different thread.

Ps Sorry folks, I'm as guilty as anyone of dragging the thread off topic.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606228

Postby Urbandreamer » August 1st, 2023, 5:23 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:My point was that it does perform the function of "everyday money" or currency in at least one country. Do I travel to or do business with people in El Salvador? No. I don't think admitting those facts makes a jot of difference to the fact that it IS used as a currency there.


If El Salvador had launched a Lightning type wallet system, just like their current one, but backed by Gold, rather than Bitcoin, wouldn't it work in the same way?

The aren't using Bitcoin, they are using Lightning, almost entirely as a closed system, with no actual Bitcoin transaction, just shuffling numbers in the backend. There is one Bitcoin holder, the government, they then use that as backing to issue their Chivas bucks. And everyone hopes they aren't issuing more than they actually have backing for.


Err, well yes and no.

Yes: If they produced, or even used lightning to transact in gold it "could" work the same way. Of course they couldn't then deal with some big institutions. For example the IMF won't deal with any country that backs it's currency with gold. Look it up.

No: or possibly yes again.

BUT only if you assume that the fact that the few are using the government wallet means that few are using bitcoin, because ??????

As I said earlier, I have a node on my phone. If you follow the Bitcoin Beach wallet link I provided earlier, you will find that they run a different node. I believe, though can't swear, owned by the El Zonte community.

Again we are drifting from lightning but extrapolating.

YES the Chivo wallet is in many ways dubious. Yes I agree with your arguments about it. NO, I dispute that that is all there is to lightning.

However do you dispute that some use lightning in El Salvador? Or that some use a different wallet than the government one there? Or indeed that, as per the video link, it can't be used as a "every day" method of exchange.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606348

Postby murraypaul » August 2nd, 2023, 9:28 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Yes: If they produced, or even used lightning to transact in gold it "could" work the same way. Of course they couldn't then deal with some big institutions. For example the IMF won't deal with any country that backs it's currency with gold. Look it up.


As opposed to them dealing with countries that back their currency with Bitcoin?

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606368

Postby Urbandreamer » August 2nd, 2023, 10:45 am

murraypaul wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Yes: If they produced, or even used lightning to transact in gold it "could" work the same way. Of course they couldn't then deal with some big institutions. For example the IMF won't deal with any country that backs it's currency with gold. Look it up.


As opposed to them dealing with countries that back their currency with Bitcoin?


I take it that you didn't do as I suggested and look it up. The IMF CAN'T deal with countries that back their currency with gold. It's the second amendment of their articles.

But AGAIN, we are moving off topic.

If you want to discuss El Salvador, the IMF, the World Bank or US sanctions, you really should start a new thread.

Ps, El Salvador hasn't had a currency since 2001. They use either USD and now bitcoin as legal tender.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606380

Postby murraypaul » August 2nd, 2023, 11:21 am

Urbandreamer wrote:But AGAIN, we are moving off topic.


The topic was Lightning.

My point is that the system used by the government of El Salvator would function in much the same way if they didn't actually hold any Bitcoin whatsoever, or if they used a different asset (my example being Gold) to back it.

When people buy and sell with the Chivas wallet, there is no Bitcoin being transferred, there is no Bitcoin transaction.

All that happens is that the government move numbers from one government controlled account to another. Just like any fiat system.

That is not Bitcoin. It is about as far from the initial intention of Bitcoin as it is possible to get.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606393

Postby ignotus20 » August 2nd, 2023, 11:57 am

Urbandreamer wrote:But AGAIN, we are moving off topic.

If you want to discuss El Salvador, the IMF, the World Bank or US sanctions, you really should start a new thread.

Ps, El Salvador hasn't had a currency since 2001. They use either USD and now bitcoin as legal tender.


So we should permit you to make thinly-substantiated off-topic assertions and then not call you to account over them because they are off-topic, right?

Urbandreamer wrote:Err, just a quick correction. Bitcoin IS legal tender in El Salvador and exchanged using Lightning. Which was not quite the subject of this thread.
However I do invite you to watch this video from 2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKdpbB5BAc&t=209s

Urbandreamer wrote:Ps Sorry folks, I'm as guilty as anyone of dragging the thread off topic.


I think you're the original guilty party in this case.

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Re: How is Lightning trustless?

#606410

Postby Urbandreamer » August 2nd, 2023, 12:53 pm

ignotus20 wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Ps Sorry folks, I'm as guilty as anyone of dragging the thread off topic.


I think you're the original guilty party in this case.


As I admitted. I'm also guilty of misunderstanding murrypaul's original point, explained better in his last post.

Lightning can be a trustless means of exchanging bitcoin. It isn't usually in El Salvador.
As he says, that is a good example of a country using lightning and bitcoin as a CBDC.

Of course it is also a good example of how that can work as "everyday money".


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