News

[Urbandreamer]

Following the thread "Not even a mention here" which complained about lack of news on this board.

Here are a few things.

Austria’s Raiffeisen Bank International announced its plan to offer cryptocurrency trading services to its retail customers.
This pioneering step will commence by the end of January 2024, marking a new era in the bank’s 97-year history.

https://cryptopotato.com/major-bank-to- ... rs-report/

Things are however not as good across the pond.

“We’ve dedicated ourselves to providing the best Bitcoin experience with Wallet of Satoshi, being at the forefront of Lightning usability and adoption. However, we’ve made the difficult decision to remove our app from the U.S. Apple and Google app stores, and will not serve U.S. customers going forward.”

https://cryptopotato.com/bitcoin-lightn ... us-market/

For those who don't know WoS is a CUSTODIAL wallet. Arguably, if bitcoin is money, that could mean that such custodial services should be subject to banking licenses. Which of course requires a fee and surveillance of transactions.

Back on this side of the pond, regulators seem to have the view that non-custodial or self custody wallets are what should be prevented.
https://www.dlnews.com/articles/regulat ... -showdown/

One gets the impression that they would like to ban cash itself because of the difficulty in tracking transactions. Something of course required to prevent money laundering.

[Urbandreamer]

More news: I thought that I'd try to keep things in one place.

Fidelity, anyone know of them?
https://www.fidelity.co.uk/

Or rather their digital assets subsidiary, have published Revisiting Persistent Bitcoin Criticisms

The document covers what it says, however if you would prefer Guy at Coin Bureau does a good overview of it's contents with some interesting additions and opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZwvgCtJx1k

If I can add a rider. Fidelity claim "Most bitcoin mining is powered by renewable energy or energy that would otherwise be wasted", but their link/evidence doesn't even attempt to support that claim. Rather it argues that to be the way things are progressing and gives economic reasons as to why that is happening.

[Bubblesofearth]

More news: I thought that I'd try to keep things in one place.

Fidelity, anyone know of them?
https://www.fidelity.co.uk/

Or rather their digital assets subsidiary, have published Revisiting Persistent Bitcoin Criticisms

The document covers what it says, however if you would prefer Guy at Coin Bureau does a good overview of it's contents with some interesting additions and opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZwvgCtJx1k

If I can add a rider. Fidelity claim "Most bitcoin mining is powered by renewable energy or energy that would otherwise be wasted", but their link/evidence doesn't even attempt to support that claim. Rather it argues that to be the way things are progressing and gives economic reasons as to why that is happening.

I still come back to the question 'why buy Bitcoin?'. The only reason seems to be in the hope that it will go up in value, i.e. someone will eventually pay me more than I paid.

Why else would you buy Bitcoin?

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

I still come back to the question 'why buy Bitcoin?'. The only reason seems to be in the hope that it will go up in value, i.e. someone will eventually pay me more than I paid.

Why else would you buy Bitcoin?

BoE

Why would you buy Swedish Krona or Swiss Franks?

This 2012 article suggested "With global economic uncertainty and various stimulus measures affecting the value of major currencies such as the euro and the dollar, investors are constantly looking for new safe havens." In the case of that article the Swedish Krona.

Dare I ask, when you say "go up in value" did you actually MEAN value?

Oh sorry, the latter part of your post explains that you could accept distrust in the value of the currency that you buy it with as a valid reason. Just like buying Krona.

Anyway, the point of this thread is not so much to debate why people buy bitcoin as to provide a counterpoint to the opinion that "Seems everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom".

Unless people who are not of that opinion post here, then it may not be surprising that it may be believed to be a universal opinion.

Hence I have decided to try and post news once a month. I just thought that as we are near the end of this month I couldn't ignore Fidelity recently addressing some of the persistent myths. Hence adding to my original post.

[Bubblesofearth]

Why would you buy Swedish Krona or Swiss Franks?

I wouldn't. I wouldn't hold cash in any currency other than GBP and then only enough to cover short-term expenditure.

I agree with you that cash is a losing proposition long-term.

My preference is to invest the bulk of my wealth in assets whose total return is likely to grow in real terms. Property and equities being the mainstays for this. I don't see Bitcoin, gold or cash doing this over the long-term.

So the question remains, why buy Bitcoin?

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

My preference is to invest the bulk of my wealth in assets whose total return is likely to grow in real terms. Property and equities being the mainstays for this. I don't see Bitcoin, gold or cash doing this over the long-term.

So the question remains, why buy Bitcoin?

BoE

My preference is also to "invest" in productive assets. As in assets that actually produce and grow.

Why Bitcoin? Well why cash or gold. In fact to be more explicit WHY GOLD!

You do I hope know that people have been "saving" in gold for a very long time. I believe that it is such an important part of some cultures that it's the gift of choice at weddings or births.

So when you can explain that, and arguably the difference between saving* and investing, you may be on the path to understanding.

As for myself, I actually hold very little bitcoin and no gold. Currently I hold less bitcoin than cash.

Were I to adopt Harry Browne's "permanent" portfolio, rather than my desired 100% equities, I should hold gold.
Here is a comparison.
https://en.swissquote.lu/international- ... investment

If there can be any logic to that portfolio then a similar logic can be applied to the addition of bitcoin, and I should buy more of both. Indeed back calculation tools exist to view the effects upon a given portfolio.

I.E here is the result for the "permanent" portfolio with and without bitcoin.
https://nakamotoportfolio.com/orangenom ... &window=30

However we are really getting off topic here and onto subjects for other boards.

As I said, the original reason for the post was to alter the zeitgeist of the board. To make it clear that positive views and news did/does exist.

*I have been told on TLF that you can "save" in equities as saving means husbanding of resources. Personally I always drew a distinction between investing in productive assets and saving in ones that produce nothing, But what do I know?

[Bubblesofearth]

My preference is also to "invest" in productive assets. As in assets that actually produce and grow.

Why Bitcoin? Well why cash or gold. In fact to be more explicit WHY GOLD!

You do I hope know that people have been "saving" in gold for a very long time. I believe that it is such an important part of some cultures that it's the gift of choice at weddings or births.

So when you can explain that, and arguably the difference between saving* and investing, you may be on the path to understanding.

Saving usually means putting money into cash products such as deposit accounts. Investing usually means putting money into assets that you hope will grow over time ahead of cash savings. My understanding anyway. A lot of people shun investing as too risky and end up with large amounts of money being eroded over time by inflation. Hence my view of only holding a relatively small amount in cash savings at any given time.

IMO gold and Bitcoin fall into the investment camp if only because you hope they will outperform cash savings in the long-run. Even if, as is the case for gold, that outperformance only comes down to preservation of real value. You accept the risk (volatility) along the way.

IMO gold trumps Bitcoin primarily for the longevity you mention. It's been recognised as a store of value for thousands of years rather than 10. For a lot of people it's also a lot less 'mysterious' than Bitcoin. People understand gold, they can hold it, wear it and sometimes deem it precious or 'my precious' even Bitcoin has people asking 'where is it?', 'what is it?', 'is it a scam?', 'is it for criminals', 'what fundamental value does it have?'. Some of the fears around Bitcoin are doubtless ungrounded but that doesn't mean they are not there.

So, no, because of its inherent volatility I see Bitcoin, like gold, as a form of investment not saving. As such I cannot see any reason to buy it instead of gold. And I don't have much gold.

BoE

[ursaminortaur]

My preference is also to "invest" in productive assets. As in assets that actually produce and grow.

Why Bitcoin? Well why cash or gold. In fact to be more explicit WHY GOLD!

You do I hope know that people have been "saving" in gold for a very long time. I believe that it is such an important part of some cultures that it's the gift of choice at weddings or births.

So when you can explain that, and arguably the difference between saving* and investing, you may be on the path to understanding.

Saving usually means putting money into cash products such as deposit accounts. Investing usually means putting money into assets that you hope will grow over time ahead of cash savings. My understanding anyway. A lot of people shun investing as too risky and end up with large amounts of money being eroded over time by inflation. Hence my view of only holding a relatively small amount in cash savings at any given time.

IMO gold and Bitcoin fall into the investment camp if only because you hope they will outperform cash savings in the long-run. Even if, as is the case for gold, that outperformance only comes down to preservation of real value. You accept the risk (volatility) along the way.

IMO gold trumps Bitcoin primarily for the longevity you mention. It's been recognised as a store of value for thousands of years rather than 10. For a lot of people it's also a lot less 'mysterious' than Bitcoin. People understand gold, they can hold it, wear it and sometimes deem it precious or 'my precious' even Bitcoin has people asking 'where is it?', 'what is it?', 'is it a scam?', 'is it for criminals', 'what fundamental value does it have?'. Some of the fears around Bitcoin are doubtless ungrounded but that doesn't mean they are not there.

So, no, because of its inherent volatility I see Bitcoin, like gold, as a form of investment not saving. As such I cannot see any reason to buy it instead of gold. And I don't have much gold.

BoE

Gold though does have real world uses from jewellery to electronics and it is also thought by many of a survivalist slant to be a hedge against the collapse of civilization (though it would probably be more useful decades later when civilisation was recovering and people had more time for creating and trading jewellery rather than just surviving - an even older form of exchange, ie salt, might be more valuable until then). This is different from cryptocurrencies which would likely disappear along with the computers and networks needed for their existence in any civilisation ending apocalypse and which have no real world uses being non-physical tokens.

[Urbandreamer]

Gold though does have real world uses from jewellery to electronics and it is also thought by many of a survivalist slant to be a hedge against the collapse of civilization (though it would probably be more useful decades later when civilisation was recovering and people had more time for creating and trading jewellery rather than just surviving - an even older form of exchange, ie salt, might be more valuable until then).

https://quotes.pub/q/yes-my-bug-out-bag ... es--344240

Yes, my bug-out bag is packed,” Faith said and grimaced. “‘Where’s your bug-out bag?’ ‘Is your bug-out bag packed?’ ‘What’s your inventory?’ ‘Why did I get the insane parents?

https://quotes.pub/q/zombies-dont-bothe ... re-1365355

Zombies don’t bother me, sir,” Faith said, dimpling cutely. “They’re insane, hungry, angry animals. They won’t kill me from professional courtesy, sir.

Fun stuff to read, but I don't expect or prep for a Zombie apocalypse.

[Tedx]

'Cos you can just never have too much money

Footballer Cristiano Ronaldo is facing a class action lawsuit in the US over his promotion of Binance, the largest cryptocurrency exchange in the world.

The plaintiffs claim his endorsement led them to make loss-making investments.

They are seeking damages of "a sum exceeding" $1bn (£790m).

It goes on to say

The cheapest NFT from the collection was priced at $77 when it went on sale in November 2022 - but one year later, it was priced at about $1.

Jesus, that's worse than Petrofac.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67566602

[terminal7]

re Ronaldo and CR7 NFTs:

Seems Binance taken down these beauties from their site - however still available on the site below you lucky people

https://opensea.io/collection/cr7-official-nft?tab=items

T7

[Urbandreamer]

Here is some more news. Sorry, a bit old, but the latest WBD carried a recent interview, causing me to look into it.

Robert Kennedy Jr has recently decided to run as an Independent rather than Democrat candidate for US president.

Here is a link that might be acceptable to crypto haters.
https://uk.investing.com/news/cryptocur ... cs-3250788

Here is the WBD interview. Which really IS worth listening to. Even if, like most of us, you don't hold a US voting card.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TceuggOE-EI

There seem to be a number of candidates who don't dislike bitcoin.

Interesting times.

[Urbandreamer]

Ho hum.

Mr de Vries is at it again. Bitcoin uses XYZ water.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67564205

For those who don't know of him, as the BBC don't seem interested in his history. He is the man behind Digiconomist.
https://digiconomist.net/

Anyway the BBC, directs you to the research by Cambridge University.

Naturally not everyone is going to search the academic details of their studies, so I thought that I'd direct you here.
https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/2023/bitcoin- ... nsumption/

Ignoring, as the article the BBC article does, energy production that does not come from gas or coal, that might be used to power bitcoin mining, it would seem that tumble dryers are as guilty!

The link to Cambridge provided by the BBC is actually quite good as a starting point though. Note that flare gas, "waste", could power the bitcoin network with ease.

Oh, I said that Mr de Vries is the man behind Digiconomist, I wonder if he has a day job?

Here he is speaking in his position as a Data Scientist at the Dutch Central bank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFNiUnfIK0E
Strange that the BBC also missed that part of his resume. Anyone know of anyone who works for a central bank who is comfortable with money that can't be controlled by them?

Oh, and forget the last paragraph of the BBC article. Freshwater is not the only alternative for power station cooling. Seawater is used when available. Of course hydroelectric generation does use freshwater to produce power, and historically some was used to mine bitcoin, BECAUSE IT WAS ABUNDANT!
I'm sure that a professor of finance would be the first person to consult on hydrology, engineering and climate studies.

[Bubblesofearth]

Here is some more news. Sorry, a bit old, but the latest WBD carried a recent interview, causing me to look into it.

Robert Kennedy Jr has recently decided to run as an Independent rather than Democrat candidate for US president.

Here is a link that might be acceptable to crypto haters.
https://uk.investing.com/news/cryptocur ... cs-3250788

Here is the WBD interview. Which really IS worth listening to. Even if, like most of us, you don't hold a US voting card.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TceuggOE-EI

There seem to be a number of candidates who don't dislike bitcoin.

Interesting times.

Urbandreamer, I have to ask, why are you so interested in Bitcoin/crypto? Genuine question as you've posted that most of your wealth is in productive assets not crypto.

Not saying it's a bad thing and maybe good to have some balance as most of the rest on this board (including me) are overall negative crypto. Just curious as to why you personally are so keen to post so much about it.

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

Urbandreamer, I have to ask, why are you so interested in Bitcoin/crypto? Genuine question as you've posted that most of your wealth is in productive assets not crypto.

Not saying it's a bad thing and maybe good to have some balance as most of the rest on this board (including me) are overall negative crypto. Just curious as to why you personally are so keen to post so much about it.

BoE

A very valid question. And one that strikes to the heart of very many disagreements upon this board.

The assumption made by many who are negative on this board is that either everyone involved is a crook/criminal, a mug or a punter/gambler.
I'm not any of them!

I've been interested in "money", economics and political ideology for most of my life. The interest in bitcoin arises from that. If you are a Keynesian, then you believe that it's ok to manage the economy by debasing the currency. If you follow Austrian economics, you will disagree that it's possible and see the debasement as undesirable.

Bitcoin and crypto is only the latest attempt to return "money" to the hands of the people. Ever heard of the Liberty dollar?
Apparently it was put out of business because it made gold and silver coins called dollars!

I think that I have drawn peoples attention to Hayek's 1976 work The Denationalization of Money. You may have heard of his more famous work The Road to Serfdom 1944.

Why am I posting so much in response to the persistent claims that it's all a con? You know, just like the claim that "Liberty dollar" was counterfeit, despite actually having an intrinsic value.

Well we recently have had evidence that unless someone does post, those claims become the received truth.

Ps, here are a few book recommendations.

When Money Dies: The Nightmare of the Weimar Hyper-inflation Non fiction 1975.
An Enemy of the State SciFi, but a story based upon political ideology and economics. 1980, so predates crypto.

Waiting to be read/listened to.
Broken Money: Why Our Financial System is Failing Us and How We Can Make it Better 2023.

[Itsallaguess]

Urbandreamer, I have to ask, why are you so interested in Bitcoin/crypto? Genuine question as you've posted that most of your wealth is in productive assets not crypto.

Not saying it's a bad thing and maybe good to have some balance as most of the rest on this board (including me) are overall negative crypto. Just curious as to why you personally are so keen to post so much about it.

A very valid question. And one that strikes to the heart of very many disagreements upon this board.

The assumption made by many who are negative on this board is that either everyone involved is a crook/criminal, a mug or a punter/gambler.
I'm not any of them!

I've been interested in "money", economics and political ideology for most of my life. The interest in bitcoin arises from that.

Am I remembering correctly that you've said here a few times over the years that you're a self-confessed anarchist?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Urbandreamer]

Am I remembering correctly that you've said here a few times over the years that you're a self-confessed anarchist?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Indeed so. But unlike Mr Milei I have not been elected to public office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Milei

Economically a neoliberal or ultraliberal and supporter of laissez-faire capitalism, he aligns specifically with minarchist and anarcho-capitalist principles.

I confess that I was seeking to avoid a in depth justification of why I find being governed distasteful.

A visit to Wikipedia will give an overview of the basic ideas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

[Itsallaguess]

Am I remembering correctly that you've said here a few times over the years that you're a self-confessed anarchist?

Indeed so.

Thanks, and I can see why a self-confessed anarchist might want to promote alternative monetary systems like Bitcoin and other crypto-related options, but I think it's sometimes important to recognise where such strong political views might influence people taking such positions.

Thanks for allowing an opportunity to do so.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Bubblesofearth]

Indeed so. But unlike Mr Milei I have not been elected to public office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Milei

Economically a neoliberal or ultraliberal and supporter of laissez-faire capitalism, he aligns specifically with minarchist and anarcho-capitalist principles.

I confess that I was seeking to avoid a in depth justification of why I find being governed distasteful.

A visit to Wikipedia will give an overview of the basic ideas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Interesting. The US, especially certain states, are obviously much closer to this political philosophy than we are. I do wonder if Government here is now too big. Massive social spending seems to have led to an entitlement culture where people prefer to take benefits rather than work. The abuse of the system is really quite breathtaking around where I live. There is, for example, a person round the corner from me who only has to sell 6 copies of Big Issue a day to get their benefits. They've been offered a job (jobs outnumber workers hereabouts) but prefer the handouts and freedom that brings.

That's just a small example. On a larger scale we now have, in Scotland, duplication of Government and all the hundreds (thousands?) of positions that tax payers have to support. For knack all difference this makes to most of us trying to get on with our lives. Not to mention the huge Gov spending projects that end up costing far more than they ever recover, buildings, bridges, trams etc. Beurocratic redundancy and inefficiency don't help either. I could go on.

Obviously it's much easier to criticise the system in place, simply because we know it so well, than other political systems. Which can make other systems seem more appealing. Personally, and at first glance, I'm not keen on the the idea of anarcho-capitalism. Feels just a bit too 'Wild West' for my liking. On the other hand the recent moves here against freedom of speech are pretty frightening. Even these boards are not immune with pressure being applied externally to moderate even more strictly than before.

The political case for Bitcoin looks pretty similar to that often made for gold. However, and with a nod to the underlying investment theme of these boards, I don't see that leading to a positive investment case one unless you believe anarch-capitalism, or something related is a real possibility? I find it unlikely myself. In the UK we look to be headed for a Labour Gov and that usually means less individual liberty not more.

Sorry, a bit of a ramble and I wonder whether this is a broader discussion worthy of merit on the politics board?

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

Sorry, a bit of a ramble and I wonder whether this is a broader discussion worthy of merit on the politics board?

BoE

Well the "received truth", is that Anarchy can't and doesn't work. Any slight evidence is rejected.

Over the years I've heard:
"There has never been such a thing". Untrue, it generally falls to outside aggression.
Nobody would possibly want such a thing, ignoring past histories of electoral success.
Didn't they lose the civil war in Spain? Untrue, it was air support by the Germans for Franco that did for them.

To be honest though, you don't have to be a Anarcho Capitalist to see virtues in some of the principles. Indeed many are not specific to that political belief.
The reverse of course also being true that the political belief borrows ideas from other sources.

As for Itsallaguess point about crypto being of interest to Anarchists, well obviously if the state is to be replaced, then we need means to perform functions currently done by it.

Another book link:
From 1971, by Milton Friedman's son David.
The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism

Interesting how almost all my book links predate crypto isn't it?

If a discussion is desired of Anarcho Capitalism, then yes, it should be on the politics board. I just don't particularly want to start one as I doubt that it would have any benefit.