Money, Currency & Crypto

[Urbandreamer]

The point about the El Salvador link wasn't political but technological, i.e. that few people are using BTC. If people don't use a technology then it's failed in its purpose.

Gold can be used in some places around the world, including some US states, to buy stuff. Do you consider gold to be currency?

BoE

I would be VERY dubious about claims that "Almost no-one in El Salvador uses Bitcoin - not even in tourism does it seem to be an attraction."

How does ANYONE establish the figures to prove or disprove that claim.

Forget for a moment the fact that we may both believe that bitcoin use is not the majority of transactions in El Salvador. How would you set about establishing the number of BTC transactions?

I can tell you what academic studies have done, which indeed shows a picture of only modest use.
They have assumed that every bitcoin transaction in El Salvador uses the CHIVO wallet. They could also get banking data of BTC conversion to USD.

First point of contention. The majority of people or businesses in El Salvador don't have bank accounts. Historically it's a cash based economy.
Second point: The entire movement grew out of a tourist resort calling itself "Bitcoin Beach" with it's own wallet.
This one.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... l=en&gl=US
https://apps.apple.com/ng/app/blink-bit ... 1531383905

You can download it yourself. Go on, do so, even though you will never use it.

Imagine that I am feeling generous and send 30,000 satt's. Are you in El Salvador because you have that wallet?
Now imagine that you do use it. Are you in El Salvador when you buy your Coffee in London or Lugano?
Ok, so imagine that you are a tourist in El Salvador and use the same wallet.
How is ANYONE going to know that you spent money in El Salvador rather than elsewhere? Well if the person or establishment you pay is using a Chivo wallet or a bank in El Salvador they will. But not if they are using another Blink (Bitcoin Beach) wallet!

The transaction data ISN'T there to back any claims about geographic or jurisdiction use. The only link is that nobody other than El Salvador citizens are allowed the Chivo wallet, but such people can use other wallets instead.

A few more questions.
1) did you know any of this.
2) do you think that the economist that you quoted does or cares?

Is it not impossible that tourists visiting El Salvador might enjoy the ability to spend their BTC? According to your economist it doesn't happen! Very VERY dubious claims.

Statistics of tourism also also call her claims into question. There seems to have been a tourism uptick.
https://fas.usda.gov/data/el-salvador-f ... tutional-4

I think that I'll leave the subject of El Salvador there. Maybe in 5 years time we will be better able to judge the success or failure of their legal tender laws, though to be honest we would have to agree what either looked like or meant.

[Spet0789]

Unless I misunderstand, you didn’t use BTC to buy a beer. What happened was that your Visa card paid in GBP and automatically triggered a transaction to sell some BTC to fund it.

You could do exactly the same (provided you used a platform which supported fractional shares) with an investment account holding Apple shares. But you haven’t paid for your beer with Apple shares.

I think you may be confusing what a currency is because every happened under the hood.

I'm not aware of a brokering account that allows you to use shares as currency, though I am aware that some US accounts allow you to access cash in a brokers account via a card. Can you provide a link, out of interest.

However while from one point of view you are correct in the BTC being sold on Thursday. From another, what happens when a Tourist from the USA spends using a card in the UK? Dollars are arguably sold to buy pounds. You can't magically make a dollar into a pound. There needs to be a transaction to provide the pounds used to buy the beer.

Everything does happen under the hood. Hence my question about your opinion of such digital transactions that don't involve BTC but do involve more than one currency. What is the currency of the transaction? Is it the currency that the vendor uses, the currency of the Tourist, or both?

In my example of Apple shares, it was an illustration. I am not aware of any brokerage that offers it (there may be one) but the reverse does happen where every time you spend money on your card, the amount is rounded up and the difference is invested. So if there was demand it could happen. My point, which you have clearly grasped is that the existence of that functionality doesn’t make Apple shares a currency.

In the case of a US tourist making a transaction in the U.K., the GBP is the currency. The USD is being used only as a store of value.

BTC is only ever a store of value in your example (and a volatile one at that, so not very good for that purpose). In very few contexts are prices quoted in BTC (unit of account) or transactions settled in BTC (medium of exchange). It’s not a good currency.

[Bubblesofearth]

A few more questions.
1) did you know any of this.
2) do you think that the economist that you quoted does or cares?

No and probably not.

But I'm interested in your opinion about gold. As it can be used for purchases in various locations, probably as many as BTC, do you view it as a currency?

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

A few more questions.
1) did you know any of this.
2) do you think that the economist that you quoted does or cares?

No and probably not.

But I'm interested in your opinion about gold. As it can be used for purchases in various locations, probably as many as BTC, do you view it as a currency?

BoE

Well to quote Spet0789 "It’s not a good currency."
Pretty much for the reasons that he gave about BTC.
In addition it's very inconvenient for day to day transactions.
Even 1/10th oz coins carry a value of more than I spend at the supermarket.
While I would question the relative frequency of the use of gold as a currency, that really is irrelevant to your question.

Tobacco was used as a currency in parts of the USA, but we are now more familiar with the idea of it's use in prisons. Though I understand mackerel has taken over it's place. It's suggested that SBF maybe trading it now.
https://thetakeout.com/why-mackerel-fis ... 1851049253

I would certainly argue that ipso facto, something used as a currency, IS a currency. So mackerel and, according to your statement, gold is a currency.

[Adamski]

Let's face it, Bitcoin is a token. Or a gambling chip.

Naughty those three little words spring to mind "no intrinsic value" lol

Suppose it's like gold, shiny but no cash flows of real value except what someone else's is prepared to pay.

I'd say may useful for some people as an alternative to diversify a portfolio, as long as you know the risks.

[ursaminortaur]

Let's face it, Bitcoin is a token. Or a gambling chip.

Naughty those three little words spring to mind "no intrinsic value" lol

Suppose it's like gold, shiny but no cash flows of real value except what someone else's is prepared to pay.

I'd say may useful for some people as an alternative to diversify a portfolio, as long as you know the risks.

Gold is physical and has real uses in electronics, jewellery etc. Even if everybody decided that trading gold in the hope of making a profit by selling to someone for more than they paid was a fools game it would still have a residual value due to those real uses unlike crypto currency.

[Urbandreamer]

Naughty those three little words spring to mind "no intrinsic value" lol

Suppose it's like gold, shiny but no cash flows of real value except what someone else's is prepared to pay.

I'd say may useful for some people as an alternative to diversify a portfolio, as long as you know the risks.

Gold is physical and has real uses in electronics, jewellery etc. Even if everybody decided that trading gold in the hope of making a profit by selling to someone for more than they paid was a fools game it would still have a residual value due to those real uses unlike crypto currency.

While far less is actually used (3% if we exclude Jewelry as per the assumption that people loose interest in shiny) than people who make this argument believe, it is at heart true.

The only value of BTC is monetary. Somewhat like USD, GBP or any of our non-commodity moneys currently in use, but with no other use than as money.

Of course no doubt at this point someone will claim BTC's monetary value is an illusion, unlike the faith in USD, GBP or Peso.

[Bubblesofearth]

While far less is actually used (3% if we exclude Jewelry as per the assumption that people loose interest in shiny) than people who make this argument believe, it is at heart true.

The only value of BTC is monetary. Somewhat like USD, GBP or any of our non-commodity moneys currently in use, but with no other use than as money.

Of course no doubt at this point someone will claim BTC's monetary value is an illusion, unlike the faith in USD, GBP or Peso.

BTC is very different from USD or GBP in that it is not legal tender in the US or UK.

BoE

[Urbandreamer]

While far less is actually used (3% if we exclude Jewelry as per the assumption that people loose interest in shiny) than people who make this argument believe, it is at heart true.

The only value of BTC is monetary. Somewhat like USD, GBP or any of our non-commodity moneys currently in use, but with no other use than as money.

Of course no doubt at this point someone will claim BTC's monetary value is an illusion, unlike the faith in USD, GBP or Peso.

BTC is very different from USD or GBP in that it is not legal tender in the US or UK.

BoE

To be BUNT. Neither is the Peso, the Euro, the Swiss Franc or indeed much of the currency used in the UK.

It would seem that you are confusing the meaning of legal tender and currency.

I suggest a bit of research.
https://vaultexuk.com/news/legal-tender/

It’s relatively common knowledge that the range of notes issued by Scottish and Northern Irish banks are not legal tender – as anyone who’s tried to spend them in England will testify – but what else is excluded? And why might you need to know?

So the pound note is NOT a currency, unless it's an ENGLISH pound note? Hell no. They use Scottish pound notes all the time in Scotland. It's a CURRENCY!

You seem to be claiming that only UK or US legal tender can be currency? This is clearly untrue if we take such parts of the UK as Scotland, or indeed many other countries in the world. I'm sure that we all know countries where USD or GBP are not legal tender and know that both USD and BTC are legal tender in El Salvador.

Is BTC different from a Scottish pound note, hell yes. Are either of them legal tender outside of El Salvador, I don't think that they are.

[Urbandreamer]

Further to the confusion between currency and legal tender, the BoE to the rescue.

English banknotes aren’t legal tender in Scotland. Scottish notes aren’t legal tender in England or Scotland. Debit cards, cheques and contactless aren’t legal tender anywhere. Confused?

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explain ... gal-tender

[GoSeigen]

While far less is actually used (3% if we exclude Jewelry as per the assumption that people loose interest in shiny) than people who make this argument believe, it is at heart true.

The only value of BTC is monetary. Somewhat like USD, GBP or any of our non-commodity moneys currently in use, but with no other use than as money.

Of course no doubt at this point someone will claim BTC's monetary value is an illusion, unlike the faith in USD, GBP or Peso.

BTC is very different from USD or GBP in that it is not legal tender in the US or UK.

BoE

If someone tried to pay for services in our business by bitcoin they'd be told to go forth and multiply. The idea that BTC is a currency is laughable. For the holder it's an asset they can convert into an actual currency which they can then spend (if someone is willing to buy the BTC off them). For the rest of the world it's irrelevant.

GS

[Urbandreamer]

BTC is very different from USD or GBP in that it is not legal tender in the US or UK.

BoE

If someone tried to pay for services in our business by bitcoin they'd be told to go forth and multiply.

GS

Which is of course your choice. You can refuse to accept whatever payments that you chose. Indeed I commented upon the fact that I was buying beer in a pub that refused to accept pounds. Well to be specific pound notes and coins, legal tender. They only accepted debit or credit cards, which are not legal tender.

BTW, is the customer service at your place really so bad that you would actually be insulting, rather than simply state that you don't accept that payment method, politely? Is it possible that your customers may chose to frequent one of your competitors, not because they accept bitcoin, but because they prefer the way that they are treated?

Just a thought.

[ursaminortaur]

If someone tried to pay for services in our business by bitcoin they'd be told to go forth and multiply.

GS

Which is of course your choice. You can refuse to accept whatever payments that you chose. Indeed I commented upon the fact that I was buying beer in a pub that refused to accept pounds. Well to be specific pound notes and coins, legal tender. They only accepted debit or credit cards, which are not legal tender.

BTW, is the customer service at your place really so bad that you would actually be insulting, rather than simply state that you don't accept that payment method, politely? Is it possible that your customers may chose to frequent one of your competitors, not because they accept bitcoin, but because they prefer the way that they are treated?

Just a thought.

My understanding is that you can refuse to sell anything for any reason you like and hence can choose not to sell something for legal tender and just accept credit/debit cards * if it is an immediate transaction. However if you have already provided the product or service and are then asking for payment then you must accept legal tender ** ie If a restaurant provides you with a meal and then presents you with a bill at the end of the meal then they cannot refuse to accept legal tender.

*. Lots of places actually won't accept payment by debit or credit card because of the fees the card companies charge them - though I believe the debit card fees are lower than those for credit cards.

** Though there are restrictions on paying with coins of various denominations so that a vendor can refuse to accept large numbers of small coins in payment of your restaurant bill.

https://www.rradar.com/post/the-coinage-act-1971-and-legal-tender

Under the Coinage Act 1971, one penny and two pence coins are legal tender only if used to pay for something that costs twenty pence or less.

A bill of up to five pounds can be paid for in five pence or ten pence coins, whilst for bills up to ten pounds, twenty pence and fifty pence coins can be used. Pound coins are legal tender for any amount.

[Lootman]

My understanding is that you can refuse to sell anything for any reason you like and hence can choose not to sell something for legal tender and just accept credit/debit cards * if it is an immediate transaction.

However if you have already provided the product or service and are then asking for payment then you must accept legal tender ** ie If a restaurant provides you with a meal and then presents you with a bill at the end of the meal then they cannot refuse to accept legal tender.

So can I legally refuse to sell something to you because of your race or religion?

A good few restaurants are "card-only" so evidently in practice cash can be refused even if the product/service has already been consumed. That said if you left the cash on the table and walked out, I doubt that the establishment would try and stop you, or have you arrested for theft.

[Urbandreamer]

My understanding is that you can refuse to sell anything for any reason you like and hence can choose not to sell something for legal tender and just accept credit/debit cards * if it is an immediate transaction.

However if you have already provided the product or service and are then asking for payment then you must accept legal tender ** ie If a restaurant provides you with a meal and then presents you with a bill at the end of the meal then they cannot refuse to accept legal tender.

So can I legally refuse to sell something to you because of your race or religion?

A good few restaurants are "card-only" so evidently in practice cash can be refused even if the product/service has already been consumed. That said if you left the cash on the table and walked out, I doubt that the establishment would try and stop you, or have you arrested for theft.

People still seem to be confused by legal tender, despite my links. It's a LEGAL term.

Someone like GS or the company that he works for can refuse to sell or deal with whoever they wish, without giving a reason for doing so.
All that they do is limit the business that they can do.
They can also make it plain that they only accept certain forms of payment*, like the crypto farmer in the Smarty mobile advert. Strangely he seems far more polite than GS,"Sorry mate, it' crypto only". He even displays a sign to the effect.

However once a debt has been incurred, for example like the cost of a meal that has been consumed, they can't sue for payment by debit card, bank transfer or bitcoin. They are required to accept legal tender to repay the debt, if that is all that is offered.

To repeat, legal tender has NOTHING to do with currency. Indeed it has nothing to do with transactions or payment, and everything to do with debt and legal enforcement.

*I didn't see the sign on my first visit to the pub, because it was right in front of me However they clearly display a sign "Card transactions only".