Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Bank account name checks

Discussing offers, rates and deals on suppliers
swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Bank account name checks

#272106

Postby swill453 » December 18th, 2019, 7:18 pm

Just been notified by my bank (First Direct) that they're going to be starting to phase in the "account name check" feature.

This is where when you set up a new destination account for a payment transfer, the name of the account is checked along with the account number and sort code. If there is an exact match with the name, all will proceed as before.

Then they say "If there’s a close but not perfect match, we’ll share your account holder name with the requesting bank to let their customer know."

I'd guess this will happen in a pretty large proportion of cases, due to ambiguity from name/initials, or joint accounts, or company names or whatever.

Be interesting to see if the implementation has any teething problems. The algorithm that determines whether it's a "close but not perfect match" will need to be pretty good. (I assume if it decides that it's not a close match, it will simply be rejected with no information passed back to the originator).

Scott.

staffordian
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2298
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 4:20 pm
Has thanked: 1887 times
Been thanked: 869 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272181

Postby staffordian » December 18th, 2019, 11:08 pm

swill453 wrote:Just been notified by my bank (First Direct) that they're going to be starting to phase in the "account name check" feature.

This is where when you set up a new destination account for a payment transfer, the name of the account is checked along with the account number and sort code. If there is an exact match with the name, all will proceed as before.

Then they say "If there’s a close but not perfect match, we’ll share your account holder name with the requesting bank to let their customer know."

I'd guess this will happen in a pretty large proportion of cases, due to ambiguity from name/initials, or joint accounts, or company names or whatever.

Be interesting to see if the implementation has any teething problems. The algorithm that determines whether it's a "close but not perfect match" will need to be pretty good. (I assume if it decides that it's not a close match, it will simply be rejected with no information passed back to the originator).

Scott.


I'm struggling to understand what the process is for a close match.

They say "we’ll share your account holder name with the requesting bank to let their customer know."

Are they saying they will give your (the originator's) account holder name to the holder of the destination account, which is what it seems to me to say?

If so, what will this achieve, where a fraudulent transaction is being perpetrated?

The fraudster will be given your name, but how will this protect you, the originator from sending money to an incorrect account.

The term "requesting bank" appears confusing, because I thought the whole point of sending a payment was that it was sent rather than requested.

If they are saying that in the event of a close match they will share the name of the destination account with the sender of the payment, it would make sense to me, but the wording above suggests the opposite.

Alaric
Lemon Half
Posts: 6033
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:05 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 1399 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272185

Postby Alaric » December 18th, 2019, 11:25 pm

staffordian wrote:If they are saying that in the event of a close match they will share the name of the destination account with the sender of the payment, it would make sense to me, but the wording above suggests the opposite.


The "belt and braces" approach would be that if potentially sending a large sum of money, send a small sum first and check that it had been received and processed correctly.

It appears that account codes are duplicated across banks, so get one of the sort code and account number wrong, it can still be a valid combination.

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272186

Postby swill453 » December 18th, 2019, 11:28 pm

staffordian wrote:If they are saying that in the event of a close match they will share the name of the destination account with the sender of the payment, it would make sense to me, but the wording above suggests the opposite.

Yes that's what they're saying. Maybe I've mixed the context of the quotes.

Scott.

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272189

Postby mc2fool » December 19th, 2019, 12:01 am

Perhaps a clearer explanation here: http://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/press-release/new-name-check-safeguard-payments-revealed-october-2018

I do hope more banks will be providing a local-to-you label for each payee before they start name checking. I have payees set up for most of my savings accounts and between current accounts, and of course they are all under the name of mc2fool. So, to distinguish them (as the name isn't currently checked), I use names such as "VM 1Y I3" (Virgin Money 1 Year Issue 3 a/c). I'm sure I can't be the only one to do something like that....

Alaric wrote:The "belt and braces" approach would be that if potentially sending a large sum of money, send a small sum first and check that it had been received and processed correctly.

Yes, I do that, but unfortunately it occasionally triggers a security block, as apparently that's also often done by crooks (or so says my bank when I call them to find out why the larger payment got blocked...)

JuanDB
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 243
Joined: August 15th, 2018, 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 114 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272192

Postby JuanDB » December 19th, 2019, 12:47 am

Confirmation of payee is based on the name of the beneficial owner of the account, not the name of the account. So in mc2fool’s example they will be the beneficial owner for all accounts, the assigned friendly name is of no relevance.

The name matching algorithm is a bit of a red herring. The underlying point is around who has liability for an incorrect payment. Prior to COP the liability is entirely with the originating account owner. With COP the bank takes responsibility for matching the names and if they make a payment without notifying the payer of a name mismatch then they take liability for the misplaced funds. If they do notify the payer of a name mismatch and the payer continues then the payer is liable.

All the major banks are paying into a contingent liability fund to underwrite any consumer losses.

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272195

Postby mc2fool » December 19th, 2019, 1:24 am

JuanDB wrote:Confirmation of payee is based on the name of the beneficial owner of the account, not the name of the account. So in mc2fool’s example they will be the beneficial owner for all accounts, the assigned friendly name is of no relevance.

Indeed, that was my point, but the problem is that most banks don't currently have a "friendly name" in their setup, so one is, currently at least, forced to use the payee name to easily distinguish between accounts owned by the same person (myself), and that will fail when name checking comes in.

Of the 5 banks I have current accounts with only Tesco Bank has a "payee nickname" that can be used for that purpose.

Loup321
Lemon Slice
Posts: 287
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 9:52 am
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272298

Postby Loup321 » December 19th, 2019, 12:44 pm

When I'm paying my other accounts, I use the Reference field. This comes up as "HSBC to joint" or "NatWest to Halifax", and is visible to me. Having three or four accounts with the same account name (and I'm named first on the Joint Account), is confusing without the Reference field. Okay, the reference then in the statements in meaningless, but it works for me.

LouP

PhaseThree

Re: Bank account name checks

#272317

Postby PhaseThree » December 19th, 2019, 1:57 pm

From The first direct web site :-

//----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
first direct, along with other major banks, have signed up to a new regulatory code of conduct to protect all our customers from so called “authorised push payment” scams, when people are tricked into sending money to fraudsters, who often pretend to be organisations they are not.

The new account name check service will allow anyone who banks with a participating bank, to verify that they’re paying who they’re expecting to pay. This goes above and beyond the checks in place already and means you can set up new payments with even more confidence.

How does it work?

We’ll be rolling this out in two phases, the first phase for us is available now and allows your account name to be shared with the other participating banks when someone tries to make a payment to you, so they can check they’re paying you and not someone else by mistake.
This is all being done in line with our Privacy Policy. Read our Privacy Policy here - https://www.firstdirect.com/privacy/
In the next few months, we’ll make another update to our payment services. From then, when you set up a new payment or amend an existing one, the account name check service will verify that the account holder name and account type match those of the person or business you’re expecting to pay.

The banks involved may launch this service at different points from now. It’s really important you make sure anyone who needs to pay money into your account knows your full and correct account name, so you can be sure your money arrives in your account without any delays.
In very rare and serious circumstances, there could be reasons your account name shouldn’t be shared as part of this process. If you have concerns, please either send us a secure message from Online Banking, or get in touch
//----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like a possitive step to me.

Bminusrob
Lemon Slice
Posts: 386
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:45 pm
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 270 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272534

Postby Bminusrob » December 20th, 2019, 11:32 am

Unless the banks get really clever here, I think I can forget ever receiving bank transfers. My main account is a joint account. The names on the account are "Mr JR Bminusrob and Mrs ABC Bminusrob". Howver, I go by the name of "Rob" or "Robert", even though Robert is my second name and similarly, although my wife uses her first name, there is a number of contractions of the name, and misspellings. The "close match" algorithm had better be very very good indeed to work in my case.

It would probably help if the banks allowed us to help them by asking us for how we would expect people to name us when transferring money to us, but I have seen no sign of this.

staffordian
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2298
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 4:20 pm
Has thanked: 1887 times
Been thanked: 869 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272574

Postby staffordian » December 20th, 2019, 1:47 pm

It would seem logical for there to be a standard way of naming acounts, but I can see that this would not be as simple as it might sound.

A start would be first initial plus surname and not using any titles such as Mr, Ms Mrs etc, so a joint account might be A & B Smith and a singe account simply A Smith

The problems arise with long names which exceed the character numbers alowed, hyphenated or double barrelled names, foreign names, business accounts etc.

But something along the above lines might eliminate many matching issues and make fuzzy logic simpler to apply.

Gersemi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 492
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:57 pm
Has thanked: 535 times
Been thanked: 222 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272611

Postby Gersemi » December 20th, 2019, 4:52 pm

Bminusrob wrote:Unless the banks get really clever here, I think I can forget ever receiving bank transfers. My main account is a joint account. The names on the account are "Mr JR Bminusrob and Mrs ABC Bminusrob". Howver, I go by the name of "Rob" or "Robert", even though Robert is my second name and similarly, although my wife uses her first name, there is a number of contractions of the name, and misspellings. The "close match" algorithm had better be very very good indeed to work in my case.

It would probably help if the banks allowed us to help them by asking us for how we would expect people to name us when transferring money to us, but I have seen no sign of this.


At present if you want someone to pay you by bank transfer you have to provide the sort code and account number. In future you should also provide the name on the account. I would imagine that will solve your problems.

G37y
Lemon Pip
Posts: 69
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 2:32 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272616

Postby G37y » December 20th, 2019, 5:11 pm

There seems alot of negative comments on this matter, I think it's a good thing if it reduces fraud.

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1801 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272644

Postby PinkDalek » December 20th, 2019, 7:30 pm

Gersemi wrote:At present if you want someone to pay you by bank transfer you have to provide the sort code and account number. In future you should also provide the name on the account. I would imagine that will solve your problems.


I've this minute set up three gifts by future dated transfers. I have no absolute idea what account names the recipients use nor did I wish to ask them (one in particular) in advance of the gifts. Thankfully the new system will not be in place this year!

Similarly, those who have my sort code and account number as a payee in their bank's system (until they drop off) may not know what precise or similar name is on my account***, until they ask me, rather than vice versa.

G37y wrote:There seems alot [sic] of negative comments on this matter, I think it's a good thing if it reduces fraud.


I don't think (haven't looked again) anyone is against the idea per se. It is the mechanics that concerns people.

Only today a Bank's online banking system has failed for the second day running.

Do you believe they'd manage to get the current proposals functioning properly, at least in the short term?


*** The extracts provided by PhaseThree (the TwoPhases ;) ) provide some clarity regarding From then, when you set up a new payment or amend an existing one, the account name check service will verify that the account holder name and account type match those of the person or business you’re expecting to pay..

pochisoldi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 940
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272652

Postby pochisoldi » December 20th, 2019, 8:03 pm

G37y wrote:There seems alot of negative comments on this matter, I think it's a good thing if it reduces fraud.


You are confusing "negative comments" with "constructive criticism".

Yes, any sane person wants some form of name/account details cross check, but those of us with multiple bank accounts want to be presented with something which is secure and usable.
Banks have a nasty habit of throwing usability out of the window in the name of security.

For example, do you want to be provided with a list like:

"Joe Bloggs" ("01-02-03 12345678, From Current")
"Joe Bloggs" ("01-02-03 78901234, From Current")
"Joe Bloggs" ("01-02-03 12345679, From Current")
"Josephine Bloggs" ("01-02-03 43215678, From Current")

Or would you want a list that reads
"To Cash ISA" ("Joe Bloggs 01-02-03 12345678, From Current")
"To Budget account" ("Joe Bloggs 01-02-03 78901234, From Current")
"To Savings account" ("Joe Bloggs 01-02-03 12345679, From Current")
"Darling Wife" ("Josephine Bloggs 01-02-03 43215678, From Current")

every time you come to make a payment?

Gersemi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 492
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:57 pm
Has thanked: 535 times
Been thanked: 222 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#272668

Postby Gersemi » December 20th, 2019, 8:19 pm

PinkDalek wrote:I've this minute set up three gifts by future dated transfers. I have no absolute idea what account names the recipients use nor did I wish to ask them (one in particular) in advance of the gifts. Thankfully the new system will not be in place this year!

Similarly, those who have my sort code and account number as a payee in their bank's system (until they drop off) may not know what precise or similar name is on my account***, until they ask me, rather than vice versa.


From the link provided by mc2fool http://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/press- ... tober-2018
"the decision on whether to proceed with a payment will always rest with the sending customer - with the risks made clear if they choose to go ahead after receiving a non-match."

so if you are confident you have the right bank account details, eg because you have used these to make a successful payment to the intended recipient before, you can chose to proceed even though you haven't managed to get a name match.

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#297417

Postby swill453 » April 3rd, 2020, 3:17 pm

Just had a chance to try this for the first time, setting up a standing order for my dad to pay his milk bill, and not too impressed.

The milkman hadn't been aware of the new checks, so had just given my dad the account number and sort code (verbally), so I was trying to guess what the account name might be.

I tried variations of the milkman's name (it's a one-person firm) and they all came back "no match".

I knew the name of the farm, so I tried that. It's a pretty distinct 10-letter word, like Lemongrove. It still came back "no match".

At this point I gave up and phoned the farm, he'd obviously had many of his customers doing the same so knew exactly why I was calling. The name of the account is actually "Lemongrove Farm Dairy".

Now I would have expected calling it Lemongrove would have at least come back as a "close" match, and supplied the real name for me to confirm. It's the longest word in the name, after all. But no, "no match" and no information supplied.

(BTW it still lets you complete the payment on a "no match", but at your own risk.)

Scott.

pochisoldi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 940
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#297537

Postby pochisoldi » April 3rd, 2020, 8:24 pm

swill453 wrote:Just had a chance to try this for the first time, setting up a standing order for my dad to pay his milk bill, and not too impressed.

The milkman hadn't been aware of the new checks, so had just given my dad the account number and sort code (verbally), so I was trying to guess what the account name might be.

I tried variations of the milkman's name (it's a one-person firm) and they all came back "no match".

I knew the name of the farm, so I tried that. It's a pretty distinct 10-letter word, like Lemongrove. It still came back "no match".

At this point I gave up and phoned the farm, he'd obviously had many of his customers doing the same so knew exactly why I was calling. The name of the account is actually "Lemongrove Farm Dairy".

Now I would have expected calling it Lemongrove would have at least come back as a "close" match, and supplied the real name for me to confirm. It's the longest word in the name, after all. But no, "no match" and no information supplied.

(BTW it still lets you complete the payment on a "no match", but at your own risk.)

Scott.


Two questions:
1) Who does your Dad bank with?
2) Have you been forced to use the payee name as your own reference?

For (2) I'm thinking about the scenario I described earlier in this thread at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=20930#p272652

PochiSoldi

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#297539

Postby swill453 » April 3rd, 2020, 8:39 pm

pochisoldi wrote:Two questions:
1) Who does your Dad bank with?
2) Have you been forced to use the payee name as your own reference?

For (2) I'm thinking about the scenario I described earlier in this thread at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=20930#p272652

1) RBS
2) No, we were able to enter anything as the reference.

Scott.

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: Bank account name checks

#297544

Postby mc2fool » April 3rd, 2020, 9:16 pm

swill453 wrote:
pochisoldi wrote:Two questions:
1) Who does your Dad bank with?
2) Have you been forced to use the payee name as your own reference?

For (2) I'm thinking about the scenario I described earlier in this thread at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=20930#p272652

1) RBS
2) No, we were able to enter anything as the reference.

I don't believe pochisoldi in saying "as your own reference" meant the normal reference field but was rather asking if you can associate a "nickname" or "friendly name" with the payee, so you can have, e.g. "The Milkman" be Lemongrove Farm Dairy, 01-02-03, 123456789, ref.


Return to “Bank Accounts Savings & ISAs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests