Faster Payments Fiasco

[GeoffF100]

I have just had a horrible experience transferring £40K from Santander to the Raisin marketplace to invest in the two year QIB UK bond. (The QIB bond is a Money saving Expert recommendation with an expected profit rate of 1.4%.) I did all the usual checks. In particular, Raisin is on the FCA Register, which gives the same web address as Money Saving Expert.

I started by transferring £1 as a test. I was warned that the payee (my name) on the Faster Payments transfer could not be validated. Nonetheless, the £1 appeared in my Raisin account.

Emboldened, I tried to send £19,999.00. No luck. (I know that I typed the correct amount because it was recorded on the text message for the OTP.) I was locked out of my account. I phoned Santander and was told that they would look into the matter and come back to me within 48 hours. No luck.

I tried chasing them, but that just resulted in someone pressing the wrong button, and I started getting emails about my fraud claim. I had to chase that up on the phone. Every time I rang I was put on hold forever. Weekend Covid service was not good.

After three days, my online access was restored, and £1,999.00 (not £19,999.00) was transferred to Raisin. I chased Santander and got them to correct their error by sending the remaining £18K.

I then tried to send another £20K. I typed the OTP and was told that the transfer was confirmed, but the money did not depart from my account, and I did not receive the usual email alert.

I phoned Santander again. Eventually, I got put through to a lady in the security team who spoke clearly and was really helpful. She sent the £20K for me using the bill payment that I had set up. She suggested that I do all my usual checks and send £1 as I had done. If it looked like I might encounter problems, rather than trying to send the money myself, she suggested that I phone and ask them to send the money for me, using the bill payment that I had set up and tested. That is, of course, completely contrary to the bank's advice to do it myself online.

The money has all reached the Raisin account now and the QIB bond is being opened.

[Lootman]

I started by transferring £1 as a test.

She suggested that I do all my usual checks and send £1 as I had done.

This may not apply in your case but I have twice been told that the "natural" precaution of sending £1 as a test can actually cause problems. Apparently that is what fraudsters do to ""test" that their scheme works in principle before raising the stakes. Two examples:

1) I wanted to send my son £1,000 via Paypal and, like you, thought I'd test it with a £1 first. Sure enough it worked, and then the following £999 transfer failed "for security reasons".

2) I checked into a hotel and the clerk ran my card to ensure it was valid. Apparently one way they do that is putting on a dummy charge of £1 which then later get reversed. Anyway later that evening I tried to use my card elsewhere and discovered that it had been blocked by the issuer for "suspicious activity"

[GeoffF100]

I started by transferring £1 as a test.

She suggested that I do all my usual checks and send £1 as I had done.

This may not apply in your case but I have twice been told that the "natural" precaution of sending £1 as a test can actually cause problems. Apparently that is what fraudsters do to ""test" that their scheme works in principle before raising the stakes. Two examples:

1) I wanted to send my son £1,000 via Paypal and, like you, thought I'd test it with a £1 first. Sure enough it worked, and then the following £999 transfer failed "for security reasons".

2) I checked into a hotel and the clerk ran my card to ensure it was valid. Apparently one way they do that is putting on a dummy charge of £1 which then later get reversed. Anyway later that evening I tried to use my card elsewhere and discovered that it had been blocked by the issuer for "suspicious activity"

When I tried to log in after the first failed transaction, I got web page telling me that my online access had been blocked and telling me to ring a local rate number. I believe that was the technical help line. (It would have been quicker and cheaper to ignore that, and phone the Santander Select 0800 number, which seems to be better staffed.) The man who responded suggested that £1 followed by a big transaction might be the problem, because fraudsters often do that. He put me through to security (which entailed another very long wait).

None of the security people I spoke to (on several calls) mentioned the £1 as a possible cause. I regularly do that. (RCI Bank snottily returned my £1 because it was less than the minimum deposit. I took that as confirmation that the account number and sort code were correct.) One of the security people said that the algorithm for approving transactions changed daily, but they did not seem to know the details of how it worked.

[GoSeigen]

I've had a good read of your post and figured out what the problem was:

Santander

Left them years ago. A complete shower. The final straw was when they told me I needed an appointment on a working day with a manager to open a savings account.


GS

[jackdaww]

I've had a good read of your post and figured out what the problem was:

Santander

Left them years ago. A complete shower. The final straw was when they told me I needed an appointment on a working day with a manager to open a savings account.


GS

============================

ive had lots of bad vibes re santander .

avoid.

[GeoffF100]

Santander is not the Abbey National Building Society that I joined forty years ago. Nonetheless, Santander has always been very reliable in the past for electronic transactions up to £20K. Manual transactions always result in manual errors. I left Lloyds for the Abbey because of the long queues of people with errors on their account.

My Santander account is the nominated account for over a dozen other accounts, so moving it would not be easy. There is also no guarantee that another bank would be better. I would have said that Santander was fine a week ago.

[gryffron]

I've had accounts with every major UK bank in the past. Santander were the worst by far, with Halifax also a struggle. I left both years ago. I've had no problems ever with any of the "proper" banks, as opposed to the jumped-up Building Societies. So another downvote from me.

Gryff

[chas49]

I've had no problems ever with any of the "proper" banks, as opposed to the jumped-up Building Societies.
Gryff

You've lucky then Of the (many) banks (of all types) I've had dealings with over the last 30 years, none has been 100% problem-free. However, the worst experiences I've had have been with TSB (no longer a customer), and Barclays (hanging on until my double Blue Rewards deal expires - yes £10 a month net is worth it to me )

[staffordian]

It may be an unfashionable choice, but I have been with the Co-op Bank for the best part of four decades and never had a problem or error. And they currently give me £50 per year for operating the account online and using my debit card a few times a month.

Given the many issues which have affected it, especially over the last ten years or so, perhaps that is something of a miracle, but I've no intention of swapping unless they end free banking.

[GeoffF100]

I had a Coop Visa card for donkey's years. No problems. Here is Which?'s assessment:

https://www.which.co.uk/money/banking/b ... headline_3

Santander is one of the best big banks according to Which? Interestingly, the bank used by Raisin, Starling Bank, is number two (after First Direct) in that list. For me, what matters is being able to transfer large sums of money without too much aggravation. I doubt whether Which?'s assessment is very relevant to that. As I have said, moving my account is not an attractive option anyway.

[GeoffF100]

Here is another assessment:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articl ... orst-banks

There is some commonality.

[GeoffF100]

I have funded a 1 year bond with OakNorth Bank, which was a more positive experience. I have been able to get through reasonably quickly by phoning the Santander Select 0800 between 10 am and 4 pm. That worked better for me than transferring large amounts of money online. I have been told that it is possible to transfer up to £100K in one go that way.

I have a cautionary tale to report. I was careful to check the OakNorth web address from Money Saving Expert against that on the FCA Register, and opened an account. I transferred £1 to OakNorth online. I had been instructed to make OakNorth Bank plc the payee, with my account number, and also my account number as the reference. The money arrived in my account, so I assumed that I had typed the payment details correctly. I then phoned Santander to transfer a larger sum of money. As a result, it was discovered that I had typed my OakNorth account number incorrectly. Nonetheless the £1 had gone into my account. I got OakNorth's phone number from the FCA register and called them. I was told that it was obvious that the payment was for my account (it came from my nominated account and the reference was correct). Nonetheless, I would have expected the payment to bounce. You cannot be too careful!

[UncleEbenezer]

I started by transferring £1 as a test.

As I always do with a new payee for any non-trivial amount.

Emboldened, I tried to send £19,999.00. No luck. (I know that I typed the correct amount because it was recorded on the text message for the OTP.) I was locked out of my account. I phoned Santander and was told that they would look into the matter and come back to me within 48 hours. No luck.

I tried chasing them, but that just resulted in someone pressing the wrong button, and I started getting emails about my fraud claim. I had to chase that up on the phone. Every time I rang I was put on hold forever. Weekend Covid service was not good.

After three days, my online access was restored, and £1,999.00 (not £19,999.00) was transferred to Raisin. I chased Santander and got them to correct their error by sending the remaining £18K.

Sounds like it's much-improved since my experience of Santander seven years ago.

The £1 went through fine, the recipient confirmed receipt. The £14999 went through, too: great!

That is, until the worried recipient phoned to ask why it hadn't. This was urgent (literally, a matter of life and death), so I logged in to see. Except I couldn't: I'd been locked out. Phoning them was no use: only my presenting myself physically in branch with passport and utility bill would unblock it.

I could've coped if the £14999 had been blocked. But to show it as a successful payment only to fail later with no communication at any point (not even a text message or email) seems beyond the pale!

[GeoffF100]

Sounds like it's much-improved since my experience of Santander seven years ago.

The £1 went through fine, the recipient confirmed receipt. The £14999 went through, too: great!

That is, until the worried recipient phoned to ask why it hadn't. This was urgent (literally, a matter of life and death), so I logged in to see. Except I couldn't: I'd been locked out. Phoning them was no use: only my presenting myself physically in branch with passport and utility bill would unblock it.

I could've coped if the £14999 had been blocked. But to show it as a successful payment only to fail later with no communication at any point (not even a text message or email) seems beyond the pale!

No, I do not believe that the system has changed. You confirm the transaction, and you naturally thank that means that the money has been transferred. That appears to be confirmed by the money leaving your account, and an email alert telling you that the debit has happened (if you have set up an alert). The catch is that there is a statement higher up on the confirmation screen (and out of view) which says that the payment will leave your account by the end of the next working day subject to the usual checks. You can also have your online access blocked for good measure. The promise to fix that within 48 hours did not happen for me. It took three days. The solution appears to be to ring them to do big transactions where there may be an issue. They do not seem to block your online access because you phone them, and the payment has consistently gone through when I have done that. Phoning them does have the benefit that someone else idiot checks the payment details.

[GeoffF100]

It is worth adding that when I made my last large payment over the phone, I was told "Do not worry if the money has left your account and has not arrived at the destination. The money has not been lost. It's with security." Actually, it went straight through. We assume that Faster Payments means same day. That seems to be true for small payments, and for larger payments up to £20K when the name check succeeds. In all other cases, Faster Payments may be no faster than BACS.

[Adamski]

Glad you didn't lose your money. I'd shop around for a current account with another bank that pays better interest, there's likely to be one.

Fyi faster payments should clear within 2 hours, immediate if same bank.

[mc2fool]

Fyi faster payments should clear within 2 hours, immediate if same bank.

That depends on whether they are "direct participants" and in any case isn't a guarantee.

"As a minimum, all financial institutions in the UK must abide by the Payment Services Directive (PSD) - this states that any payments made by mobile, internet or phone banking (including standing orders) must arrive by the end of the following business day at the latest."

See https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/faqs under How long do Faster Payments take? and I am expecting to receive a Faster Payment and have been waiting for longer than 24 hours. Is this allowed?

[GeoffF100]

Fraudsters are becoming ever more resourceful and the banks are under pressure to compensate victims. They are taking measures to prevent fraud, but this has its downside. Difficulties arise with legitimate savings accounts that are outside the Faster Payments name checking system.

I do not expect that Santander is any worse than the competition. They are paying me to bank with them, and any difference in costs or incentives between the banks is in any case trivial. Taking until the end of the next business day to check for fraud before making a transfer is allowed by the rules. Having your online access blocked can be avoided by using doing the transaction over the phone. That way, you assure them that you have done all the necessary checks (FCA Register etc). I expect they have had cases where a transaction fails and fraudsters persuade the victim to transfer money some other way, so they try to block that.

[Arborbridge]

It is worth adding that when I made my last large payment over the phone, I was told "Do not worry if the money has left your account and has not arrived at the destination. The money has not been lost. It's with security." Actually, it went straight through. We assume that Faster Payments means same day. That seems to be true for small payments, and for larger payments up to £20K when the name check succeeds. In all other cases, Faster Payments may be no faster than BACS.

That's worrying in itself! You wouldn't know whether it was worrying or not until it was too late to worry

As regards name checking, this can be one more worry. I've had to give up because the name was similar to, but not exactly the same as the one I was given by the company I was trying to pay - the sort of thing one might expect of a fraudster.
I therefore had to phone the payee and ascertain the exact name and punctuation on the account.
It turned out that the punctuation was critical and the software couldn't cope with it.

Arb.

[GeoffF100]

It is worth adding that when I made my last large payment over the phone, I was told "Do not worry if the money has left your account and has not arrived at the destination. The money has not been lost. It's with security." Actually, it went straight through. We assume that Faster Payments means same day. That seems to be true for small payments, and for larger payments up to £20K when the name check succeeds. In all other cases, Faster Payments may be no faster than BACS.

That's worrying in itself! You wouldn't know whether it was worrying or not until it was too late to worry

If your £1 test payment arrived, and you are using the same bill payment, but with a larger amount, you should not need to worry. It is not bad that the bank is doing further checks. We coped with BACS.