Old to New £50 notes abroad

[Lootman]

I think the OP is perfectly clear. Their friend's family members in HK have a stash of "old" £50 notes (under the mattress, so to speak), and want to swap them for "new" £50 notes without going through any normal institutions.

The only thing that isn't specified is their reason for doing so, and the only interaction at all with any bank anywhere is to be in the UK when the friend withdraws the money from their UK bank, in new £50 notes, and later deposits (most of it) back in old £50 notes. Motivations are left to the imagination of the reader.

The op doesn't mention anything about avoiding the usual Institutions.

And neither did I, I said "without going through", not "avoiding". They may want to but there may be reasons why they can't. Reasons, which, as I said, weren't specified.

Ignoring the fact that 'without going through' and avoiding are synonyms in this context, they didn't say that either...

No, not synonyms as avoiding implies specific effort. But they didn't have to say it, it's a clear inference from what they did say.

Yes, I inferred the same thing although the desire to "avoid" banks is on the part of the relatives in the Far East and not the OP's friend, who has actually written to her bank with this request, thereby voluntarily creating a paper trail.

Presumably those relatives do not trust the banks in wherever they are, else why would they be sitting on 10K in fifties that they cannot spend there?

[Mike4]

Is it just me that is faintly bemused that £10k is regarded as a large sum to hold in cash, and that it has been compared to suitcases stuffed with £millions?

In £50 notes, the £9,800 concerned is 196 notes, which would probably be a wad about an inch tall and fit in one's jeans pocket.

[Lootman]

Is it just me that is faintly bemused that £10k is regarded as a large sum to hold in cash, and that it has been compared to suitcases stuffed with £millions?

In £50 notes, the £9,800 concerned is 196 notes, which would probably be a wad about an inch tall and fit in one's jeans pocket.

There are some interesting websites around that will tell you the size and weight of various combinations of amounts, currencies and denominations.

For instance a million bucks in $100 bills weighs about 22 pounds and will fit in a normal suitcase. Make that a million in $1 bills and it weighs a ton and you need a van to move it around.

There is a reason why launderers love the 500 Euro note and the Swiss 1,000 franc note

[Mike4]

Is it just me that is faintly bemused that £10k is regarded as a large sum to hold in cash, and that it has been compared to suitcases stuffed with £millions?

In £50 notes, the £9,800 concerned is 196 notes, which would probably be a wad about an inch tall and fit in one's jeans pocket.

There are some interesting websites around that will tell you the size and weight of various combinations of amounts, currencies and denominations.

For instance a million bucks in $100 bills weighs about 22 pounds and will fit in a normal suitcase. Make that a million in $1 bills and it weighs a ton and you need a van to move it around.

There is a reason why launderers love the 500 Euro note and the Swiss 1,000 franc note

Excellent, my guess was broadly right!

https://www.answers.com/general-science ... ound_notes

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
This discussion is off-topic for DAK. I am moving it to Bank Accounts Savings & ISAs (not convinced it's wholly on-topic there either but it's a better fit (chas40=9)

[didds]

Is it just me that is faintly bemused that £10k is regarded as a large sum to hold in cash,.

is thjis one of these limits that hasn't changed in 50 years, when originally that sum was sufficient to buy a central American nation? Or Essex?

[Dod101]

The question is though whether it should be declared and if so will it pass muster. The fact that £9,800 in £50 notes can probably be lost in the luggage is not really the point. The question really was about whether that value in notes can be taken out of this country and brought into a Far East country with no penalty. Still seems to be no definitive answer.

To answer Mike4, I regard £10,000 as a lot of money to have in cash (or actually in any other form)
Dod

[DiamondEcho]

Permissible and wise may be two different things. IIRCC you need to declare £10,000+ if you are carrying it out of the country, carrying £9,800 out of the country looks incredibly like you are carrying an amount just below the declaration limit, which in some countries is enough in itself to be deemed suspicious. It's also possible the destination country might have similar requirements for currency import, and take similarly against people who appear to be deliberately avoiding making a declaration. Personally I'd avoid carrying large sums of cash through customs, and put the notes in a bank account.

I have never known of a case of any country checking the bags of someone leaving, other than the usual security check of your carry-on baggage. So the risk in leaving the UK is trivial, even if the amount were over £10,000, which this isn't. In theory there is a customs check upon leaving but in practice it never happens.
Entering another country is, as you say, another matter. I have no idea about Hong Kong but some other nations are fairly picky about people bringing in large amounts of cash in high denomination notes.
Apparently dogs can be trained to sniff out large amounts of banknotes, presumably from the smell of the chemicals in them. They get employed at airports. Personally I would never carry more than about a grand in banknotes anywhere.

Agreed. £9,800 shouts 'It's below the limit so I'm ok right? -> Mr. Customs: 'Come into this room, we need a chat and this might take a while...'
The OP talks of bringing it back in older notes. Again such a wad of notes will be noted at customs and I'd expect him to be questioned on it. Proof of origin etc., and full personal details, bank accounts, employment etc which they will look into to consider your explanation. [been there/done that].

Keep in mind whatever you carry will be spotted by customs. If it looks significant (and I'd expect £9.8k to be, a good 1" donkey-choker) then they'll require a closer look.
Any legit person would have such a sum in a secured pocket on a jacket they wear throughout the flight [IME]. Just tucking it in a bag likely looks even more questionable.
I've been at Heathrow [c3-4yrs ago] where 'Currency sniffer dogs' [per their tabards] have been quietly working around seated people in the departure lounge for flights to the Middle-East.

- I have carried pretty big sums with me, but these days you have to expect questioning and it's not much fun even when 1000% legitimate. I suppose most 'normal people' don't do it, so they want to know your reasons. So take proof/source of funds/employment etc. For me I was ending foreign contracts, closing bank accounts and relocating accumulated funds to my new country. Anticipate serious questioning none the less. They of course have the right to impound it while they investigate.

[Lootman]

Permissible and wise may be two different things. IIRCC you need to declare £10,000+ if you are carrying it out of the country, carrying £9,800 out of the country looks incredibly like you are carrying an amount just below the declaration limit, which in some countries is enough in itself to be deemed suspicious. It's also possible the destination country might have similar requirements for currency import, and take similarly against people who appear to be deliberately avoiding making a declaration. Personally I'd avoid carrying large sums of cash through customs, and put the notes in a bank account.

I have never known of a case of any country checking the bags of someone leaving, other than the usual security check of your carry-on baggage. So the risk in leaving the UK is trivial, even if the amount were over £10,000, which this isn't. In theory there is a customs check upon leaving but in practice it never happens.
Entering another country is, as you say, another matter. I have no idea about Hong Kong but some other nations are fairly picky about people bringing in large amounts of cash in high denomination notes.
Apparently dogs can be trained to sniff out large amounts of banknotes, presumably from the smell of the chemicals in them. They get employed at airports. Personally I would never carry more than about a grand in banknotes anywhere.

Agreed. £9,800 shouts 'It's below the limit so I'm ok right? -> Mr. Customs: 'Come into this room, we need a chat and this might take a while...'
The OP talks of bringing it back in older notes. Again such a wad of notes will be noted at customs and I'd expect him to be questioned on it. Proof of origin etc., and full personal details, bank accounts, employment etc which they will look into to consider your explanation. [been there/done that].

Keep in mind whatever you carry will be spotted by customs. If it looks significant (and I'd expect £9.8k to be, a good 1" donkey-choker) then they'll require a closer look.
Any legit person would have such a sum in a secured pocket on a jacket they wear throughout the flight [IME]. Just tucking it in a bag likely looks even more questionable.
I've been at Heathrow [c3-4yrs ago] where 'Currency sniffer dogs' [per their tabards] have been quietly working around seated people in the departure lounge for flights to the Middle-East.

- I have carried pretty big sums with me, but these days you have to expect questioning and it's not much fun even when 1000% legitimate. I suppose most 'normal people' don't do it, so they want to know your reasons. So take proof/source of funds/employment etc. For me I was ending foreign contracts, closing bank accounts and relocating accumulated funds to my new country. Anticipate serious questioning none the less. They of course have the right to impound it while they investigate.

True, and the landscape has changed so much in the last decade or two, such that carrying cash has become almost redundant for many purposes. Why risk carrying a think wodge of banknotes across borders when you could easily have a credit balance of thousands on one of those normal looking cards in your wallet? Or paypal the funds between accounts? Or even go old school and post a cheque to yourself.

OK, this "new notes for old" idea may be kosher, but I can't think of too many legitimate reasons to carry more than a few hundred in sterling or equivalent anywhere. And no doubt there are some countries around the world where cash might be safer than the local banking system or government.

Have you ever visited those sketchy looking bureau de change places on Praed Street, W2? I have seen guys walk into them with suitcases full of cash in some unrecognisable (to me) currency, and exchange them for other currencies. Those places are just steps from the Heathrow Express, and I wonder whether they carried that suitcase on a flight out of the middle east, marched through customs with it, and then immediately "washed" it on Praed Street. Who are these people? Those guys have hawala and so should not need to move that much cash about.

[DiamondEcho]

I think these days with the likes of the very low margin Wise multi-currency bank card there is much less reason for a legitimate person to have to do what I described.

Have you ever visited those sketchy looking bureau de change places on Praed Street, W2? I have seen guys walk into them with suitcases full of cash in some unrecognisable (to me) currency, and exchange them for other currencies. Those places are just steps from the Heathrow Express, and I wonder whether they carried that suitcase on a flight out of the middle east, marched through customs with it, and then immediately "washed" it on Praed Street. Who are these people? Those guys have hawala and so should not need to move that much cash about.

No TBH the street is so grotty, apart from the good locksmith Barry Bros, I do my best to avoid it. It's a typical place of transience right by a travel hub roved by scavenging junkies. London's 'Arab' quarter is centred on Edgeware Road a short stroll away.

[Newroad]

Hi All.

I think we need to assume that the old notes to be swapped out were obtained legitimately (otherwise, we shouldn't be helping at all).

We can then hypothesise HK for the outbound leg (declaration needed above HKD 120,000 - which is above £GBP 12,000 at the minute) and UK for the inbound leg (declaration needed above GBP 10,000). One key point is that it is not illegal to exceed that level of cash, only to not declare it.

With the above facts known or assumed, there is no issue IMO - just declare the cash - even if marginally below the threshold.

Regards, Newroad

[Lootman]

I think we need to assume that the old notes to be swapped out were obtained legitimately (otherwise, we shouldn't be helping at all).

We can then hypothesise HK for the outbound leg (declaration needed above HKD 120,000 - which is above £GBP 12,000 at the minute) and UK for the inbound leg (declaration needed above GBP 10,000). One key point is that it is not illegal to exceed that level of cash, only to not declare it.

With the above facts known or assumed, there is no issue IMO - just declare the cash - even if marginally below the threshold.

The OP's friend stated that some of the £9,800 was for personal spending money and, since the total amount before that is already under £10,000, then I see no reason to declare the cash when returning to the UK.

And I don't see the point of choosing an amount under the reporting limit and then declaring it anyway.

If you are right about HK then there is no problem at that end anyway.

Are you saying that the declarations only apply to the arrival airport? I had originally assumed so but some thought otherwise.