How do people manage the FSCS £85,000 limit

[AF62]

If you gave me your passwords with the express intent of me using them in such a situation, and I then do so with honest intent, then that is not illegal. It may technically breach a bank's T&Cs. It may in some cases cause an issue down the road if I am subsequently careless. But it is not a crime.

But you know you should tell the bank their account holder is dead. You know you should obtain probate. You know that the bank wouldn’t hand you the money unless you pretended to be the dead person.

Honesty and good faith - don’t think the bank would agree.

1) I will inform the bank of the death. The timing of that is an executor decision.
2) I am not impersonating anyone. I am acting as the executor using the powers vested in me by the will.
3) Often an estate can be administered without probate, so I do not "know" that I "should obtain probate".
4) The bank is free to agree or not agree. I can demonstrate the probity and legality of my actions.

1. You know the account holder is dead but you fail to inform the bank before emptying the deceased’s accounts into your own.
2. You know the login details are not yours but the deceased’s so to the bank you are deliberately appearing as the deceased.
3. If the bank won’t release the money on a death certificate and copy of the will unless you obtain probate, which they will for fairly sizeable amounts and up to £50k isn’t uncommon, then you are doing this to avoid probate to get the money released.
4. The bank is not “free to agree or not agree” as you haven’t told them the truth because you know they would refuse.

Obviously you would not be comfortable doing this. I am, in some circumstances.

And that’s fine.

Your concept of acting honestly and in good faith is obviously different to mine.

[Lootman]

Obviously you would not be comfortable doing this. I am, in some circumstances.

And that’s fine. Your concept of acting honestly and in good faith is obviously different to mine.

Different, sure, on the subject of what is the nature of the legal authority granted to an executor over the assets and accounts of the deceased.

My point is limited to challenging an earlier claim that so doing is a crime. It is not, unless you happen to be able to produce chapter and verse of a criminal statute that specifically cites this situation. And I know for a fact that you cannot.

The rest is down to subjective opinions about what it is to behave with clean hands.

[AF62]

unless you happen to be able to produce chapter and verse of a criminal statute that specifically cites this situation. And I know for a fact that you cannot.

Obtaining money the bank wouldn’t give you if you were honest with them and told them the account holder was dead and then pretended to be the account holder to empty the dead person’s accounts - isn’t that a crime?

Tell you what, try it and then report yourself and see how it goes for you.

[Lootman]

unless you happen to be able to produce chapter and verse of a criminal statute that specifically cites this situation. And I know for a fact that you cannot.

Obtaining money the bank wouldn’t give you if you were honest with them and told them the account holder was dead and then pretended to be the account holder to empty the dead person’s accounts - isn’t that a crime?

As stated, not a crime to my knowledge, since an executor has legal authority over an estate's assets. For a non-executor, you are correct.

The way I think about an executor's powers is that they are similar to having a POA whilst someone is alive. As your attorney, I can access your account if you grant that power to me. I can act in your stead. If I am both your attorney and your executor then I have seamless and uninterrupted rights and powers, both before and after your death.

But in both cases I have to have only good intentions towards you (alive) and your estate (dead).

[AF62]

unless you happen to be able to produce chapter and verse of a criminal statute that specifically cites this situation. And I know for a fact that you cannot.

Obtaining money the bank wouldn’t give you if you were honest with them and told them the account holder was dead and then pretended to be the account holder to empty the dead person’s accounts - isn’t that a crime?

As stated, not a crime to my knowledge, since an executor has legal authority over an estate's assets. For a non-executor, you are correct.

The way I think about an executor's powers is that they are similar to having a POA whilst someone is alive. As your attorney, I can access your account if you grant that power to me. I can act in your stead. If I am both your attorney and your executor then I have seamless and uninterrupted rights and powers, both before and after your death.

But in both cases I have to have only good intentions towards you (alive) and your estate (dead).

No, your intention is to avoid the systems put in place by the banks and the law to protect the deceased and their assets.

Your method to do this is by failing to provide information to the bank that you know as an executor you should provide, and then compounding that by pretending to be the deceased to empty the deceased’s accounts into yours.

[Lootman]

unless you happen to be able to produce chapter and verse of a criminal statute that specifically cites this situation. And I know for a fact that you cannot.

Obtaining money the bank wouldn’t give you if you were honest with them and told them the account holder was dead and then pretended to be the account holder to empty the dead person’s accounts - isn’t that a crime?

As stated, not a crime to my knowledge, since an executor has legal authority over an estate's assets. For a non-executor, you are correct.

The way I think about an executor's powers is that they are similar to having a POA whilst someone is alive. As your attorney, I can access your account if you grant that power to me. I can act in your stead. If I am both your attorney and your executor then I have seamless and uninterrupted rights and powers, both before and after your death.

But in both cases I have to have only good intentions towards you (alive) and your estate (dead).

No, your intention is to avoid the systems put in place by the banks and the law to protect the deceased and their assets.

Your method to do this is by failing to provide information to the bank that you know as an executor you should provide, and then compounding that by pretending to be the deceased to empty the deceased’s accounts into yours.

I disagree, although as I said if you can cite a criminal statute saying otherwise, I will take a look at it.

Going round in circles here so lets agree to disagree.

[AF62]

so lets agree to disagree.

I think that’s what we have been doing! But yes.

[AJC5001]

The way I think about an executor's powers is that they are similar to having a POA whilst someone is alive. As your attorney, I can access your account if you grant that power to me. I can act in your stead. If I am both your attorney and your executor then I have seamless and uninterrupted rights and powers, both before and after your death.

But you cannot act as an attorney without the agreement of the bank - you have to provide them with the POA and get them to accept it.
The POA ceases when the account holder dies.
In order to access the account as an Executor you need to provide the Death Certificate and proof you are executor.

To access the account using a password you should not have (and you KNOW that's what you are doing) is indistinguishable from the actions of a fraudster who has obtained the details by phishing. (IMHO)

Adrian

[Lootman]

The way I think about an executor's powers is that they are similar to having a POA whilst someone is alive. As your attorney, I can access your account if you grant that power to me. I can act in your stead. If I am both your attorney and your executor then I have seamless and uninterrupted rights and powers, both before and after your death.

But you cannot act as an attorney without the agreement of the bank - you have to provide them with the POA and get them to accept it. The POA ceases when the account holder dies. In order to access the account as an Executor you need to provide the Death Certificate and proof you are executor.

To access the account using a password you should not have (and you KNOW that's what you are doing) is indistinguishable from the actions of a fraudster who has obtained the details by phishing. (IMHO)

Obviously I disagree. As the executor I have the legal right, power and authority to control the assets of the estate.

Moreover the password was specifically given to me for this explicit purpose.

It is only fraud if I intend fraud and clearly in this case there is no such intent.

[Lootman]

The way I think about an executor's powers is that they are similar to having a POA whilst someone is alive. As your attorney, I can access your account if you grant that power to me. I can act in your stead. If I am both your attorney and your executor then I have seamless and uninterrupted rights and powers, both before and after your death.

But you cannot act as an attorney without the agreement of the bank - you have to provide them with the POA and get them to accept it.
The POA ceases when the account holder dies.

In order to access the account as an Executor you need to provide the Death Certificate and proof you are executor.

To access the account using a password you should not have (and you KNOW that's what you are doing) is indistinguishable from the actions of a fraudster who has obtained the details by phishing. (IMHO)

Thinking about the POA analogy some more, I recall that I held a POA for my mother for her last few years. And I did as you said: I went to the bank with the document and I was set up as an authorised user, and was given a chequebook and debit card to operate the account.

The problem was that I lived 100 miles away and so often I could not help as desired. So my mother gave my cousin (who lived close by) her debit card and PIN. and he would go and get cash for her or make deposits.

So effectively my cousin was acting as de facto attorney in a similar manner to what we were discussing, but with less formal authority. But he was impeccable with his actions and so it was not a problem.

[Loup321]

I have a Word Document with all my account details on it (login id, names and account numbers for all accounts, hints to passwords). I keep this up to date. For any major changes in who I bank with, I print out a copy and put it with my Will. I don't bother printing it just for changes of accounts I hold with the same provider - with my login id number and a death certificate, I would hope that any bank would tell my executors what they need to know.

A list of institutions and accounts is a good idea, but the logins and passwords…

Your executors certainly could possibly use the login and passwords you left with your will, but with the increased use of 2FA they probably can’t unless they have access to the second method of security.

But if they did then they would certainly be breaching the bank rules and possibly the law.

Sorry, I didn't say "passwords." I said "hints to passwords" and they are just there to remind me which password is on which account. NO ONE would be able to guess the full password from "8 character, UC, LC, numbers" but I can. The login is my customer number. My name is fairly common, but my customer number is unique with each institution. I have no intention whatsoever of my executors accessing my accounts without probate, but I do want them to know who I have accounts with.

Sorry if my earlier post was misleading.

[Lootman]

I have a Word Document with all my account details on it (login id, names and account numbers for all accounts, hints to passwords). I keep this up to date. For any major changes in who I bank with, I print out a copy and put it with my Will. I don't bother printing it just for changes of accounts I hold with the same provider - with my login id number and a death certificate, I would hope that any bank would tell my executors what they need to know.

A list of institutions and accounts is a good idea, but the logins and passwords…

Your executors certainly could possibly use the login and passwords you left with your will, but with the increased use of 2FA they probably can’t unless they have access to the second method of security.

But if they did then they would certainly be breaching the bank rules and possibly the law.

Sorry, I didn't say "passwords." I said "hints to passwords" and they are just there to remind me which password is on which account. NO ONE would be able to guess the full password from "8 character, UC, LC, numbers" but I can. The login is my customer number. My name is fairly common, but my customer number is unique with each institution. I have no intention whatsoever of my executors accessing my accounts without probate, but I do want them to know who I have accounts with.

Sorry if my earlier post was misleading.

I guess what is confusing about it is that if this is a document for your executors after your death, then including "hints to passwords" in it doesn't achieve anything. A list of just the account details would be sufficient for that purpose.

If the "hints" are just for you in case you forget a password, then that sounds to me like a separate document, and something that might include other passwords, such as your TLF password.

Also passwords tend to change more frequently than account numbers.

I am happy for my executors to access my accounts post-mortem. I think that would be helpful to them, although that is their decision anyway, and not mine. But if I did not want them to have that option then I would not include passwords nor hints to them in the document I leave for them.