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Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

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yorkshirelad1
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Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577364

Postby yorkshirelad1 » March 21st, 2023, 12:31 pm

Moderator Message:
There has been a suggestion to merge this thread with another one discussing a similar thing, several months ago. That suggestion has merit.
But the other thread was on another board, not the board specifically for ISAs, and in any case this initial post highlights a new development. --MDW1954


is a There is an interesting short article re proposals for limiting ISAs in the latest (Mar 2023) sharesoc newsletter. The text is below, a screenshot of the article is at: https://imgur.com/HUUjHt6.

Sharesoc is at https://www.sharesoc.org/. (I have no connection with Sharesoc other than as a member)

ShareSoc Informer - Issue 123 (Mar 2023) https://www.sharesoc.org/news/newsletter/ wrote:
Proposals on limiting ISAs

Social policy think-tank the Resolution Foundation has released a report* looking at the government’s policies to encourage household saving. It particularly focuses on ISAs and notes that capping ISAs could raise £1 billion in tax for the Treasury.

The report proposes a cap of £100,000 on ISAs, but it is unclear if that’s a cap on total contributions or a cap on the total value of an ISA. At one point the report suggests that “individuals would need to choose what accounts to withdraw in order to meet the overall £100,000 limit.”; this seems an overly complicated and impractical proposal that wouldn’t easily cope with fluctuations in equity values, for example.

At £20,000 per annum the existing contribution limits for ISAs are very generous and only wealthy individuals can fully utilise them every year. Looked at in isolation, it’s difficult to find genuine reasons why the best-off should be given such large tax incentives.

However, the £1 billion of additional tax that the Resolution Foundation claims would be collected looks insignificant in the context of HMRC’s recent annual summary on tax reliefs. This notes, for example, that the cost of pensions tax relief was an estimated £51.6 billion in the 2021/22 tax-year, split across £26.9 billion of income tax and £24.7 billion of National Insurance. The top 1% of earners pay almost 30% of all income tax, and that increases to 50% when looking at the top 5% of earners. So it’s worthwhile making an effort to make sure that those people stay in the UK and pay their taxes here. That unfortunately appears not to be the case, as the Telegraph recently reported that the “ultra-wealthy are deserting the UK”.

To paraphrase Jean-Baptiste Colbert: Taxation is the art of plucking the goose with a minimum of hissing. That millionaires are fleeing the UK for lower tax jurisdictions is an indication of “hissing”, but it seems unlikely that tinkering with ISA allowances would change that flow of traffic.

Capping the total value of an ISA seems overly complicated, but it would be relatively simple, for example, to reduce the maximum annual contributions to £6,000 (£500 a month) and cap life-time contributions to £100,000. Existing ISA accounts should be grandfathered, but historic contributions would count towards the £100,000 lifetime cap.

I appreciate that these limits are a lot smaller than the current ones but I struggle to justify tax incentives so large that only the super-wealthy can fully utilise them.

(I hope it's OK to include the text here; it's an interesting article, and putting the text here will mean it shows up in text searches. If anyone is unhappy that the text is quoted above/here, I'll be happy to remove the quoted text)

*: The Resolution Foundation report seems to be at https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/isa-isa-baby/.

mc2fool
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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577370

Postby mc2fool » March 21st, 2023, 12:43 pm

A bit behind the times ... it's already been discussed on these boards two months ago. Warning, long thread: viewtopic.php?p=561892#p561892

yorkshirelad1
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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577384

Postby yorkshirelad1 » March 21st, 2023, 1:33 pm

mc2fool wrote:A bit behind the times ... it's already been discussed on these boards two months ago. Warning, long thread: viewtopic.php?p=561892#p561892


Oops! My error. I'll put something on that thread.

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577388

Postby Lootman » March 21st, 2023, 1:45 pm

yorkshirelad1 wrote:(The article author says):

"I struggle to justify tax incentives so large that only the super-wealthy can fully utilise them"

I do not consider that I am close to being "super wealthy" and yet I manage to find the full annual subscription each year. It is funded by selling some of my taxable holdings, and paying CGT on that.

In fact if you were "super wealthy" then an ISA would not make much difference to your overall tax situation.

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577407

Postby Dod101 » March 21st, 2023, 2:43 pm

Lootman wrote:
yorkshirelad1 wrote:(The article author says):

"I struggle to justify tax incentives so large that only the super-wealthy can fully utilise them"

I do not consider that I am close to being "super wealthy" and yet I manage to find the full annual subscription each year. It is funded by selling some of my taxable holdings, and paying CGT on that.

In fact if you were "super wealthy" then an ISA would not make much difference to your overall tax situation.


It does not claim that only the ‘super wealthy’ can fully utilise the ISA limits. It does mention the ‘wealthy’ but as has been said this has all been fully aired in the thread that mc2fool highlighted and there is not a lot of point in going over it all again.

Dod

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577410

Postby Lootman » March 21st, 2023, 2:51 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Lootman wrote:I do not consider that I am close to being "super wealthy" and yet I manage to find the full annual subscription each year. It is funded by selling some of my taxable holdings, and paying CGT on that.

In fact if you were "super wealthy" then an ISA would not make much difference to your overall tax situation.

It does not claim that only the ‘super wealthy’ can fully utilise the ISA limits.

Actually the Sharesoc article specifically stated that "only the super wealthy can fully benefit from them". I took them to mean there that you have to be "super wealthy" (whatever that means) to find £20,000 a year in subscriptions. I dispute that.

Dod101 wrote:It does mention the ‘wealthy’ but as has been said this has all been fully aired in the thread that mc2fool highlighted and there is not a lot of point in going over it all again.

The previous topic was about the older Resolution Foundation article and not the newer Sharesoc article. But yes of course, Lemons can decide what they want to discuss and what not to.

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577426

Postby Dod101 » March 21st, 2023, 3:03 pm

Lootman wrote:
Dod101 wrote:It does not claim that only the ‘super wealthy’ can fully utilise the ISA limits.

Actually the Sharesoc article specifically stated that "only the super wealthy can fully benefit from them". I took them to mean there that you have to be "super wealthy" (whatever that means) to find £20,000 a year in subscriptions. I dispute that.

Dod101 wrote:It does mention the ‘wealthy’ but as has been said this has all been fully aired in the thread that mc2fool highlighted and there is not a lot of point in going over it all again.

The previous topic was about the older Resolution Foundation article and not the newer Sharesoc article. But yes of course, Lemons can decide what they want to discuss and what not to.


There is enough petty arguing that goes on without my adding to it and of course I accept the issues you raise. I too have subscribed the full amount I could ever year since I qualified in 1991 when I again became resident in the UK but I am certainly not super wealthy. I am in fact debating whether it is going to be worth my while paying CGT on selling one of my few remaining certificated shares to transfer it into an ISA in the new tax year. How long will it take me to more than recover the tax paid?

Dod

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577455

Postby MDW1954 » March 21st, 2023, 4:50 pm

Moderator Message:
Please see Moderator post appended to the first message in this thread, if you missed it. --MDW1954

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577459

Postby mc2fool » March 21st, 2023, 5:04 pm

Lootman wrote:
Dod101 wrote:It does not claim that only the ‘super wealthy’ can fully utilise the ISA limits.

Actually the Sharesoc article specifically stated that "only the super wealthy can fully benefit from them". I took them to mean there that you have to be "super wealthy" (whatever that means) to find £20,000 a year in subscriptions. I dispute that.

Dod101 wrote:It does mention the ‘wealthy’ but as has been said this has all been fully aired in the thread that mc2fool highlighted and there is not a lot of point in going over it all again.

The previous topic was about the older Resolution Foundation article and not the newer Sharesoc article. But yes of course, Lemons can decide what they want to discuss and what not to.

The "newer" (March) ShareSoc Informer article is simply reporting on the "older" (January) Resolution Foundation article; it even links to it. So I'm not sure what MDW thinks is a "new development" -- other than ShareSoc finally catching up. :D (Which is forgivable if, as it seems following the link in the OP, that ShareSoc Informer comes out quarterly...)

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Re: Sharesoc article re limiting ISAs

#577466

Postby Dod101 » March 21st, 2023, 5:21 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Lootman wrote:Actually the Sharesoc article specifically stated that "only the super wealthy can fully benefit from them". I took them to mean there that you have to be "super wealthy" (whatever that means) to find £20,000 a year in subscriptions. I dispute that.


The previous topic was about the older Resolution Foundation article and not the newer Sharesoc article. But yes of course, Lemons can decide what they want to discuss and what not to.

The "newer" (March) ShareSoc Informer article is simply reporting on the "older" (January) Resolution Foundation article; it even links to it. So I'm not sure what MDW thinks is a "new development" -- other than ShareSoc finally catching up. :D (Which is forgivable if, as it seems following the link in the OP, that ShareSoc Informer comes out quarterly...)


I was about to write exactly the same. There is nothing new in this article by ShareSoc. The author from ShareSoc has been less than consistent in his opinion anyway. Early in the article the author comments that 'only wealthy individuals can fully utilise them' (the annual limits) then towards the end of his article, he opines 'I struggle to justify incentives so large that only the super wealthy can fully utilise them.'

I am not super wealthy by any standard but have utilised the limits in full every year since 1991 to date, and for about 1/3rd of that time (admittedly the early years) also filled my wife's limits as well,

Considering that as we agreed in the earlier thread, this is basically an opinion from a rather left leaning think tank (the RF) and no one in government has broached the subject as far as I know, there is not much more worthwhile to be said.

Dod


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